I AM IN THE PROCESS OF BUYING A CD PLAYER AND I DONT KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO.WITH SO MANY TO CHOOSE FROM I WANT TO PURCHASE SOMETHING GOOD BUT I DONT WANT TO SPEND 10,000 EITHER.
Hey Dave, Mmashak's APL Denon 3910 is a solid state design with MOSFET output, no tubes. I really think that your 3930 should be compared to that one so it is a fair game.
I am sure that there will be many around here to believe that Op Amps can beat tubes so your statement that your Op Amp/Black Gate 3930 "completely cream APL 3910" might actually fly. :-)
I am sure that there will be many around here to believe that Op Amps can beat tubes so your statement that your Op Amp/Black Gate 3930 "completely cream APL 3910" might actually fly
Here it comes, the double blind facial! Cameras ready...
Aplhifi, How does your APL Denon solid state design compare to your tubed output stage with AKM DAC's? Is your solid state unit actually better in your opinion? If you think the solid state design is better then I would agree that it would be more fair to compare the 3930 to that unit. Or are you saying solid state units should not be compared to tubed units period?
Can I take back the words "not competitive"(although it looks like it got people talking). I think the words came from admiration of what Alex did to his 3910. It had me wondering what could be improved, also. After changing the stock power cord for TVAD's recommendated Volex 17604, I see that anything can be improved. The thought that major companies use cost as a factor in their products, has me suspicious of their products.
Audiohobby1, I live the San Francisco Bay Area. I'de be happy to compare the two. My system is not optimally setup, so it might be better in your 3930's system. One thing bothers me. All by itself, Alex's 3910 sounds fantastic! I know this sounds like heresy, but I'm not completely convinced that comparisons yield the best results. I also want to mention that AKM dac's, tubes, and Alex's use of the Esoteric transport are considered upgrades on my APL 3910. I also think that replacement of the Denon 3910's power cord with the Volex 17604 is a no-brainer. This last statement are for those that still have the standard power cord. I'm sure there are better power cords out there, but for less than $20, who can argue?
Jp1208, my solid state Denon 3910 sounds really nice but is not nearly as good as the AKM/Tubed one. Tvad have heard them both in his system so he may want to provide some feedback about the differences. Since my long discontinued AKM/Tube Denon 3910 was all-single ended design, it is possible to sound a tad slow/romantic compared to a solid state design but the level of naturalness, realism and soundstaging properties can not be matched with solid state.
All of the current APL Hi-Fi AKM/Tubed products are featuring fully differential design.
Since we are also offering 3930 (see our website) which is all solid state design using the original Burr-Brown DACs and MOSFET output, it would be fair that David Schulte's 3930 is compared to that one. I am willing to submit an APL 3930 machine to anyone who'd like to compare it to Schulte's. Doing so with the AKM/Tubed NWO-2.5, NWO-M1 and even the discontinued APL 3910 would not be fair for David Schulte, not APL.
Mmakshak - My idea above was a "get-together" not a "shoot-out". I think those two descriptions are self defining. Besides agreeing with your idea that a one time side-by-side comparison is probably not ideal, I really don't like the idea of having someone come to my home, eat and drink what I provide and then crap all over any of my gear the moment they get to their computer. I know there are many very passionate folks around here, but this tone can be ruthless and unwarranted...IMO of course.
BTW, I too wish I could edit or even delete some of my posts. There have been several times when I have written something that I shouldnÂ’t have. I really donÂ’t think there is anything wrong with what you wrote above. I certainly wasnÂ’t offended. I just think some folks may have misinterpreted/over-interpreted it.
The bottom line is this, I like my player. I like what Schulte has done with it and how he has treated me as his customer. I may not have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but at least he is NOT the first “modder” I have dealt with, so I do have a little experience. Others may not feel the same way as I do on any of these points, and that is just fine.
Also, FWIW, TUC, APL, and even RAM, to the best of my recollection, have all made posts that have been what I would consider confrontational in there tone. But, this is their livelihood and I can now understand how they can get their feathers ruffled by what some people write. Especially when people imply facts about gear they have never heard. IÂ’d get POÂ’d too!
The fact that you are reading this [all of you!], in my book, defines you as a bit geeked out on audio. So we all really need a little Psychological help. I know my player is not the absolute best of the best. I never meant to imply that it is. But, it is the best I can do for now. I feel I would have had to spend a boatload of money, and time, to get to this point buying off-the-shelf players.
One last thing, the Esoterics I referred to above do not have the VRDS outfitted transports. My “antiquated” DV-50 has a pioneer transport. From what I understand, the Denon transport can do a great job, but there is much more to it than just the transport…as always…so I am told [nice disclaimer - huh].
Jp1208, I don't think the solid state APL Denon is better than the AKM/tubed version. This is the reason suggesting comparing apples with apples since TUC Denon 3930 is also solid state.
Since both AKM/tubed and solid state APL Denon 3910 based players are long discontinued, while TUC Denon 3930 is their current latest and greatest, I think it would be more appropriate to look at APL's current products of which the all-solid-state APL 3930 would be the only somewhat equal level competitor to TUC 3930.
711Smilin....if you'll recall correctly we put your APL3910 back in the system actually twice after I personally changed your preamp tubes and the noise went away...granted neither player had much time on it...the 3930Ci only had about 15 hours total time since new. Why did you offer to sell me the APL 3910 for $4500 on the spot?
Mr. Hi End Audio, Dave, if you recall, several months ago you were apparently quite impressed with the APL Denon you've heard at Steve's (against your current “greatest” at the time) so you personally called me to place an order for APL Denon 3910 which I refused after careful consideration, sorry to say. Steve offered you the APL Denon recently because he thought you’d still want one (which you did) and because he has NWO-2.5 coming in a couple of weeks from now. He asked me if I am ok with him selling you my Denon on which of course I said no, sorry again. Why a competitor wants to buy my discontinued product anyway? While I suspect why you want to buy it now, please be cautious because you may encounter a boomerang effect. :-)
I am perfectly aware (in great detail) how all Denon, Sony, Pioneer, Esoteric and many more players/combos are built. I also know that upgrading components brings very nice results (been there done that) and is a good value at the price point but, sadly, this approach is limited by the original circuit/overall design topology of the given digital player and is greatly insufficient if best possible results are desired.
Please let's stop beating a dead horse! The APL 3910 was discontinued long time ago and, although itÂ’s still quite good, it can not hold a candle against the current APL products.
Just got back from Miami, where I heard a Wadia 270 transport with the 27i DAC. Or as I was told a computer processor.
At any rate if I could afford this combo I could finally put my analog to rest. If there is better than this I have yet to hear it in digital. At $15,995 for the combo, thats a mighty price to pay for digital to sound as good as a $2K analog set up.
Ferrari, we've found that using any number of DVD-ROM RAM Buffered transport equipped players (Denon/Marantz/Esoteric) run into heavily upgraded DAC even older dacs by Theta, Linn, Monarchy and Krell completely crush any 1 box player we have heard....they sound lightweight small, lacking bass drive, micro and macro dynamics, thin and strident. Trick is using the right SPDIF coaxial interconnect and using an error and jitter-free transport. Based on numerous A-B's we've done, there is no need to rebuild the circuit design with hotglued breadboards and wiring all over the place.
The Wadia set was not a one box set up. But with that being said,all else that was with this system was way far over the top. Wilson Watt speakers Pass Labs Mono Blocks,Goldmund preamp. Plus some very esoteric interconnects and speaker cables.
After some 48 years in this hobby, I think I finally heard what I consider the ultimate achievement in two channel audio. There is certainly nothing in the past I have heard that can come close and I have heard some very exotic gear in that period of time. It was like being completely immersed in the music, like you could dip your hand into the sonic signature, truly a musical experience I have not experienced till then.
In regards to this thread best CD Player for the money, I have to tip my hat to the Wadia set up. In my opinion it is best for the money,if you have $16K to spend on a digital set up.
Ferrari, although I am sure that the Wadia combo is excellent, according to someone who is the F1 legend Michael SchumacherÂ’s neighbor in Switzerland, his recently acquired $22,000 universal digital player sounds as good as and sometimes better than his $65,000 vinyl setup. Coincidentally, same result was reported from another fine gentleman who A-B-ed the same digital player against his $32,000 vinyl setup.
Just FYI! And no, the above is not a joke!
BTW, the universal digital player in question is a single box player which...
sounds lightweight small, lacking bass drive, micro and macro dynamics, thin and strident
Of course, this same universal player features things as explained by Mrhiendaudio...
there is no need to rebuild the circuit design with hotglued breadboards and wiring all over the place
In other words you should just get...
any number of DVD-ROM RAM Buffered transport equipped players (Denon/Marantz/Esoteric)run into heavily upgraded DAC even older dacs by Theta, Linn, Monarchy and Krell completely crush any 1 box player we have heard
If memory serves me correct the F 1 legends system is FM Acoustics amp and preamp, with the rest of the system Goldmund. My last update on this was 2003. Seeing as FM Acoustics never gives anything away, he probably paid for that. More than likely he probably got the Goldmund gear gratis. No matter,still has to be a wonderful system though.
As for me personally I can find little significant sonic difference between a $2,000.00 CDP and a $4,000.00 CDP and have heard both price ranges in separates and single unit players. Personally I won't spend more than $2K on any digital system, for me becomes a point of diminshing returns on investment at above $2K. Not trying to convince anyone, just my point of view. Of course when one gets into the stratosphere of ultra high end like the Wadia setup I heard, then it becomes something all else. In the final analysis each one of us has a perception of what sounds the best to any one individual. What reproduces the music that appeals to me, may certainly not be someone elses cup of tea. And thats how it should be.
Digital has been with us for some 25 years now and I bought one of the first players to hit the market in 1983. Digital has come a long way since then and has miles to travel before it finally puts analog to rest. The gap is narrowing each year and some of the technolgy is trickling downstream at this point to mid high end units.
While at CBS I was able to see the genesis of Digital long before it arrived at the consumer level. First prototype I remember was in 1964.For a variety of reasons to lengthy to go into now it took 18 years to deliver the first digital medium to the market place.
I applaud all who continue to strive for excellence in this realm, to serve the music we all enjoy. For in the final analysis I firmly believe this hobby is much more about the music, than the gear. You see if music was not the key then the dreaded I-Pod and MP 3 would not have the market on music delivery.
I find this point in time in high end audio fascinating as no time before. And feel that a true genuine break through in the digital medium is very near indeed. I don't think it will come from a major manufacturer, but from a cottage industry, where the mavens keep pushing the envelope of design to loftier heights. While I am 63 now and have been in this hobby/business since 1957 and have seen first hand the growth of this industry, I keep looking forward to what the gifted designers will bring forth.
After all Nelson Pass when he started Threshold, did so, literally on his kitchen table and that is where break throughs continue to come from. The kitchen table. Not in a corporate environment, where visionaries are held in disdain.
Boy, were getting some great stuff here! I know this off the subject, but I 'de like to answer Audiofeil(or at least take a look at this subject). I think that long-term satisfaction takes precedent over comparisons. Actually, the question is, "Do you get-off on the music?". Everything else is interesting, but just that! I have to defer to Alex about his 3910(solid-state), but boy what a player that is! Ferrari, you might consider Alex's 3910(compared to analog, and designed with analog in mind) as an alternative to analog. I have a circa-1992 Linn(Ekos, nude Archiv, Lingo, Mana Sound table), and you might change your thinking. I know that I did. Now, not everything in digital will sound better. In fact, in almost all cases, I prefer the analog(pre-1983) to the cd made from that. I also want to point out that recent redbook is much better than earlier stuff. That leaves a huge gap(between 1982 until about 1995) in music, though.
Does anyone else feel that Msb should be a contender? When I hear the word best I cant help but hear msb!! Although i did not read many other responces about msb. Particularly the platinum cd station! What do you think
Don't forget the Audio Analogue Paganini CD Player. Have one here on the test bench now. All I can say is WoW. Spectacular is a word that doesn't even come close to describing this unit from the land of Ferrari and built like it as well. More to come on this player as the testing continues.
I recently listened to the latest one box EMMlabs CDSA SE layer, at $9995 MRSP it blew away my Accuphase DP-77 clearly (in a Dartzeel/Harbeth/Jena labs system). If the Esoteric I want does not top the EMMlabs box I may go for this one too.
711Smilin, I own the latest EMM Labs CDSA single box player, bought it brand new about 6 weeks ago. It pales to our Signature Edition 3930Ci's, just like your APL 3910 did. We've been loaning out the EMM Labs to customers around the country to hear for themselves. The truth will eventually come to light when their opinions make their way online. It is sad to see such dishonest vindictiveness in you.
Toshiba 3990 DVD Player, it costs all of $40.00 at Best Buy. I replaced a $1000 player with this just to have something to listen to and found it better. It has horrible quality control issues and you may need to go through a couple of them to get a good one but it is far better than many CD players out there like the Rotel 1072 and many others that are far more expensive than the $1000 player it replaces. Bob
Steve, The answer to your question is yes! I only had the original mod and not the battery version. Stay out of the snow in Chicago today! All the best. Bob
711Smilin, I fail to understand how a Denon 3910 could be playing in the super high-end market and be significantly better than Emmlabs , even "modified". Denon themselves have a high-end player (the DSD-SA1 retails for about $10,000) that is certaily very good but not up to the latest Emmlabs SE gear. I don't think this player is marketed in the USA yet. Couldn't APL modify the Emmlabs CDSA SE player...would love the hear how much further they could push that! Regards Henry
I heard the APL on two systems, one being mine. Synergy is the thing. For a particular SET system, it breathed dynamics and presence into the system. In my own highly resolving system, it sounded like a basket of bones. As for the Toshiba, don't get me started.
Jazze22: TAS 1/07 under 2006 Product(s) of the Year Awards lists the Budget Component of the Year for '06 as the Oppo DV-970HD (149.US).
TAS magazine also features an article by Chris Martens , p.26 regarding the Oppo. Based on the glowing review I purchased the DV-970HD which supports DVD-audio/Video,SACD,HDCD and CD and provides HDMIoutputs w/ 720p/1080i upconversion directly from www.Oppo.com .
I then compaired the Oppo to a fully out-rigged EAD combo that initially retailed for approx.$5K(US). The Oppo in-terms of sonic layering ,soundstage & presence thrashed the EAD no small feat in my book.
If you have not already made up you mind buy the 970 and pocket the savings.
Crem1, Jazz22 started the thread back in 2000, since then he has been divorced twice and was shot by his second wife for trying to trade her in for a better cdp. The first wife I think ended up with the better system. At least that is the way I heard it. However, the OPPO's are getting some recognition.
Check out the Reference Audio Mods Web site. RAM reports the stock Oppo to be favorably compaired to the stock Marantz SA-11S1 that retails for $3,499.US. Not too chee'zy Aye ?
I would like to purchase the best cd player for no more than a thousand bucks. My system is Belles 21a pre with Belles hot rod amp... A first generation top of the line Sony dvd player and Von Schweikert VR 1 speakers with and old NHT sub. I am in the middle of upgrading my whole system and a cd player is my next move...
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