I too have pondered that very scenario, Marty. Of course, there WERE people who were hearing the Smile recordings as they transpired, creating an intense buzz via the underground reporting on the album (as chronicled at the time by Paul Williams in Crawdaddy Magazine (those articles later collected in his book "Outlaw Blues"). Another thing that could have happened was for TBB to appear at The Newport Pop Festival in '67 as they were originally scheduled to. Maybe that would have changed the hippies perception of them. Unfortunately they for some reason cancelled. The only time they were sort of referenced around that time was when Hendrix offhandedly said "Aw, we'll never have to listen to surf music again" during a song on his first album. He was not talking about them, but rather Dick Dale, a guitarist he actually admired and was influenced by. |
Bdp,
You ask an interesting question. Here's another one:. What might The Beatles have wrought had they heard it? They were still paying attention to Mr Wilson (and taking inspiration from him). And....Given the influence of The Beatles, how might that never made record have rippled thru the pop music world? I think it's actually a pretty interesting alternate universe scenario. Then again, that's just me. |
Ha! I got the boxset of Smile and, as much of a fan of Smile as I am, for me it was a listen-to-once kinda thing. Listening to every partial take, every snippet of every rehearsal of every part of every song, is not something I want to do again. It just reminds me of what a shame it is Smile wasn't finished and released in it's own time. It would really have blown some minds, The Beach Boys being held in such low regard as they were in 1967. It was surreal to me in 1967 after hearing Smiley Smile, realizing Brian Wilson was THE musical leader of his generation, miles ahead of what anyone else was doing, yet looking around and seeing most people still thinking of him in terms of surf & sun songs. |
bdp, it will no doubt end with a virtual reality experience which will allow anyone to see and hear exactly what Brian, Carol Kay, Hal Blaine, or any other of the participants heard and saw during every moment of the recording process. You'll be able to have a chat with holograms of Carl Wilson and Tommy Tedesco. Smell Glenn Campbell's leather boots. I can guarantee it won't be cheap but, you know, if you're a true fan then money is no object...order today!
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There have been more versions of Pet Sounds on LP and CD than any other album I can think of. Enough already! How much more deluxe can it get?! |
There is a 50th anniversary super deluxe issue on the horizon.
It is going to be interesting to see and hear any unreleased material. |
I've thought Pet Sounds was something very special from the time it was released. I've heard it in its original format on LP on a suitcase stereo and I've heard the 90's stereo digital remix on my system. The music itself is what makes it for me. The equipment, the mix, etc. is the icing on the cake.
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I've never been a huge Beach Boys fan. I've always read of how influential "Pet Sounds" was. In my system, I never heard the end result. That is until recently, when aquired a DCC Mono copy. This is one special sounding record! One in which I can now appreciate the music, more over, the technical production and the moving experience I'm now hearing in my system.
Steve Hoffman got this one right!
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Brian Wilson was a genius and he worked with some of the best studio musicians at the time. The way he used certain instruments one song that comes to kind is good vibrations is really the work of a true musical genius in total control and knowing exactly what he wanted. That song was way ahead of its time. |
Actusreus does make a valid point. To make a claim that the Beach Boys were great musicians-vocalists or lyricists would be a very biased viewpoint. I will agree the whole is greater then the sum of the parts. Since the BB were not from my generation(gen-x) I have no emotional-nostalgic ties. Pet Sounds might be there best studio recording(have not heard every BB recording) which I'm familiar with every track on PS. I certainly would not say it's a perfect(great) album but it does deserve a spot in your music collection. IMO the definitive BB recording is The Beach Boys-Live in Concert(1973). With the addition of Ricky Fataar and Blondie Chaplin gives the BB a higher level of musicianship sounding more like a classic rock band then a jukebox.
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To each their own. I find it irrelevant, thay you think them irrelevant. Here's a thought, if you don't like, then don't listen. Opinions are like assholes everyones got one. ( Here's hoping the thought police won't find it necessary to delete this.) |
Amen fjn04! Brian Wilson has probably been the most important music maker in my life. The Beach Boys were the first group I saw live, in 1964, and Brian was still playing bass and singing with the Group at that time. I even made a pilgrimage to Brian’s beautiful Spanish-style mansion on Belagio Drive in Bel-Air in ’75, to see about having him produce myself and my musical partner, a songwriter heavily influenced by Brian. We were not yet aware of how damaged Brian was, that info not yet being public. I can’t imagine my musical life without Brian. Anyone accusing me or anyone like me of being culpable or complicate in Brian’s tragic demise by lauding his greatest achievement, the stunning Smile, can kiss my a--. |
I really enjoy Audiogon, and it's really fun getting to share this wonderful hobby with all of you. I'm not sure if I'm just having a bad day, but I truly dislike the direction this thread went. Maybe turning 50 next month has made me more sensitive, who knows. I did read the entire thread, before commenting here. I read nothing that suggested embracing abuse. So perhaps the issue is the accepting the fruits of the abuse. I've never been in any controversy here, but this one is perplexing. I'm sorry, but I just wanted to get this out. On the lighter side, and I know there are others who agree, it's truly great to have artists as gifted as Brian. So if I may be so bold, may I officially lift this dark cloud, so we can get back to the music. (-: |
hifigary- Thanks for sharing that. A couple of stops in VT, Boston Symphony Hall, and Tanglewood, just to name a few East coast options. Tanglewood seems to mix in a few non-classical shows each year. I was lucky enough to catch Steely Dan there 8-10 years ago. What a great opportunity this is. I should have looked closer, but I wonder if they are doing mostly smile. CHEERS -Don |
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FYI : Brian Wilson will be performing a 50th anniversary concert of Pet Sounds at the Hollywood Bowl, Los Angeles, along with Al Jardine , Blondie Chaplin, and orchestra. I'll be going.
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bdp24- indeed Sunflower is great IMHO. I might go so far as to say, and underappreciated gem. I must ad Good Vibrations at one point. I'd likely grab The Smile Sessions LP from 2011, or Smiley Smile. If the latter, maybe the QRP, as it's not the easy to find a nice copy used. Of course either of those would also give me Heroes and Villains. |
213runnin,
"Yes, you embrace abuse when you accept the fruit of the abuse".
How do you explain this, then?:
"Personally, I listen to music I enjoy, and don’t research artists for drug use".
How is it that you're not accepting the "fruit of the abuse", but "some" of us are?
"The line that I draw is to not revere the resulting chaos that LSD
caused Brian Wilson and his music, as some of you seem to do".
I would like to request that you share with us how you concluded that some of us are merely listening to music we enjoy, but some of us "revere the resulting chaos" to musicians that drugs have caused.
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Your most recent post just popped up. It's different in tone than some of previous posts. Please ignore my previous post as you've already addressed it. I think I get your point, now, but maybe we just hear this particular music differently.
"Good Vibrations" came out of the Pet Sound sessions and it's a pretty bizarre piece of music - the expected guitar solo is played on electro-theremin. I've always seen the subsequent direction of Brian Wilson's music as a continuation of that artistic arc. "Vibrations" was a hit, but it was also a move towards a much less commercially reliable way of producing music. If you hear Smile as a symptom of drug abuse and believe that it's celebrated for that reason, than I understand your reaction. I just don't hear the music that way.
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You've used some interesting strawman arguments, but they do not apply to what I've clearly said. |
213
Unless you are arguing that we must bear the responsibility for the moral consequences for all of our consumption decisions and their ethical implicarions, you are mistaken. Accepting the fruit of the abuse isn't endorsing the abuse.
BTW, It IS possible to endorse the abuse - see Timothy Leary and "Turn on, Tune in, and Drop out". I am NOT suggesting that.
As Minkwelder notes, the history of musicians and drug abuse is long and varied. A ton of highly regarded jazz musicians of the '50s used booze, pot and/or heroin. Add LSD and try to find a significant rock musician who didn't abuse one or more of those drugs during the '60s. Toss in cocaine and quaaludes and you've covered most of the seventies. Mix in some ecstasy and....
....you our get the picture.
So, if you ARE insisting that we must examine those ethical implications, then I trust that you consume none of that music. And none of the following:
I trust that you buy no Chinese made goods, lest you implicitly endorse the Chinese government's abuse of intellectual property rights, etc. I assume that you don't enjoy any running water in your home, because that was developed by the Romans, and I'm sure that you do not champion feeding Christians to Lions. You surely don't listen to the blues, so that there's no possible implicit endorsement of slavery. I'm certain that you've never owned a Volkswagen product, purchased Bayer aspirin, etc. This list gets long in a hurry.
If you do none of the above, you're an admirable man indeed. More principled than I am. However, if you have done any of the above...... |
Personally, I listen to music I enjoy, and don’t research artists for drug use. Nor do I avoid music of known drug addicts, although I think that those who used it as a crutch had or have issues. I do find that my tastes are such that I never cared for the styles of Jimmi Hendrix or Janis Joplin, and plenty of artists with acid rock, hard rock, death metal and probably most of the other metal varieties.
The line that I draw is to not revere the resulting chaos that LSD caused Brian Wilson and his music, as some of you seem to do. Smile is quite weird, at least the little of it that I’ve heard, so I never bought it. I actually never knew why it was so strange until after watching the latest Brian Wilson movie, and realizing that some drug dealer ruined the life of one of the greatest American artists of his time. Sorry, I just can’t revere that. |
213runnin,
It seems that you have drawn an arbitrary line in the sand. Do you personally refuse to listen to music produced by anyone who used drugs, or only those who have a public reputation as a drug abuser? When it comes to the Beach Boys' music, you seem to be saying that one shouldn't listen to Pet Sounds or anything recorded subsequent to that album. How about the songs on which Brian had no input?
You have indicated that your favorite Beach Boys tune is Sloop John B, which was released in 1966, yet Brian's LSD use began in 1965. Are you willing to accept that song because his drug problems hadn't, in your opinion, progressed to the point of "abuse"?
Do you reject the music of Louis Armstrong, Berlioz, Miles Davis, Chopin, or Judy Garland? If you include alcohol abuse in your "no-listen" list, you are rejecting an even greater number of very good musicians.
Personally, I listen to music I enjoy. I don't research the personal shortcomings of the musicians before I listen.
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I too am sure Brian would. Should we not listen to Smile because of that?! Do you fault McCartney for going to the Smile premiere in London a few years back? Was McCartney embracing abuse by doing so? Should no one ever again read, say, Alice in Wonderland? |
Yes, you embrace abuse when you accept the fruit of the abuse. Look, I understand that this makes you uncomfortable, and you disagree with me. That is fine, but I'd bet you a million bucks that Brian Wilson, if asked, would quickly admit that if he had the chance to do it all over again, he'd stay the hell away from drugs.
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No one is embracing abuse.
That is different entirely from embracing the art produced by a drug abuser.
This discussion has next to nothing to do with money.
Some folks here are more empathetic than scornful.
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bdp24, you say that a significant percentage of history’s greatest composers, musicians, writers, and painters had severe mental and/or emotional problems, as well as drink and drug problems.
Well, yeah, that's because a significant percentage of the population has always had those issues. Taking drugs to alter your mind and reality is a stupid dangerous thing to do, before you even add up all of the overdose deaths.
Some here want to embrace the abuse of one's own body as long as they like the resulting "art". What a sad statement of your own mindset. I wouldn't be surprised if it was music industry executives that wanted their stars on drugs so the music might sell better. Anything for a buck. |
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Bdp,
"Gravity's Rainbow" is a great, great novel IMO, but be advised...
It's +/- 1200 pages long and can be a tough slog if you aren't familiar with Pynchon's MO. It might be a bit akin to reading "Finnegan's Wake" as your first shot at James Joyce.
I read the Pynchon novels more or less in chronological order, which is a good way to ease into his universe. However, the two preceding novels. "V" and "Crying of Lot 49" are quite not in the same league. "Lot 49" is short and great fun, tho, so I might start there, anyway.
Critics differ greatly on ranking the Pynchon novels (other than "Rainbow", which AFAIK is pretty much universally admired). I really love "Against The Day" but it's another very long, very complex way to start that Pynchon journey. You could also start with "Inherent Vice" (which was recently made into a movie by PT Anderson, where one of my favorite filmmakers meets my favorite novelist). It's an easier read and, even if it never reaches the heights of Pynchon's best stuff, it wouldn't be a bad place to start.
Even if it is sometimes a bit drug addled, the Pynchon novels are definitely my absolute favorite fiction in the world, so - Enjoy the trip! (pardon the pun). |
fjn04---Sunflower is my favorite Beach Boys album these days. I can’t tell you how eagerly anticipated it was at the time of it’s release (1970), their first after moving from Capitol Records (who were STILL promoting them as "The No. 1 Surf Group in the World" as late as 1968. Duh.) to Reprise/Warner Brothers, THE "artist" label at the time. |
+1 bdp24. I spun Sunflower last night. I love this LP. I could see a casual Beach Boys fan listening to this, and not immediately recognizing who it was. I find it quite different than their early material. |
Well said, everyone! Tostadosunidos: "Kokomo"---What a piece of junk! Mike claims he was as responsible for the Beach Boys 60’s hits as was Brian. "Kokomo" is what Mike sounds like without Brian. When hearing Mike’s voice in a Beach Boys song, I often imagine what the song would sound like without it. His voice is really annoying to me. "Darlin’" is a cool little song, I played it in a Group in the early 70’s. "Surf’s Up" was to have been on Smile, but came out on the Surf’s Up album, in a new recording. Lovely song. Jafant: McCartney always considered Brian his songwriting competition, and Brian felt the same about Paul. I had a ticket to see The Beatles at The Cow Palace in ’64, but wasn’t quite sold on them yet, still preferring my beloved Beach Boys, and my Mom went in my place. I had changed my mind by the time they returned in ’65! Marty: Great stuff. I’m gonna have to get a copy of "Gravity’s Rainbow". I’ve read far more non-fiction than fiction, but this book sounds intriguing. Another book famously written under the influence is, of course, "Alice in Wonderland". Then there is Edgar Allen Poe, quite the cocaine (amongst other substances) lover. A lot of writers were notorious drunkards, producing a fair amount of the world’s greatest literature. If we discard works produced by drinkers and druggers, there will be a lot less to read and listen to! Onhwy61: Not only were the other guys an essential part of The Beach Bots sound, some of them evolved into fine writers themselves, particularly Dennis. He wrote some very fine songs, and Carl, who was a fantastic singer (far better than Brian himself), did as well. Bruce Johnson wrote a couple of good ones, though perhaps a little sappy (like the Barry Manilow hit "I Write The Songs"!). I kinda like his "Disney Girls". Mike and Al, not so much, but that’s just me. And you’re right---Brian on his own is not a pretty sight. Of course, by that time he was severely damaged goods. |
While Brian Wilson was unquestionably the most creative force in the Beach Boys, he was not the sole talent. It's a disservice to the other band mates to marginalize their contributions to the unique Beach Boys sound. Simply compare Wilson's solo works to his work within the Beach Boys to see the difference. It's as if the band placed much needed boundaries on Brian's creativity. The internal band dynamics most have been interesting.
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IMO, the greatest (and certainly one of the most celebrated) novel(s) of the last century (Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow") was written by an author who (by his own admission) used LSD extensively during its creation. Beyond that, the book is specifically revered for Pynchon's prose: It is both stunning in its ingenuity and also widely celebrated largely for its acid inspired, fever dream imagery.
LSD took a terrible toll on a lot of people, but (like a lot of other drugs) it's also been a part of the creative process for many artists. Look, It's fine to reject drug use as dangerous. It is dangerous. I also understand the desire to avoid glamorizing drug use. However, I'm just not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. Great art produced while under the influence of drugs is still great art. However, unpleasant or disturbing the implications of that truth may be. |
The Beach Boys were great competition for the wave of the British Invasion. Most notably, The Beatles. Happy Listening! |
You're right, Sail on Sailor is a great track. I liked Surf's Up, Friends, Darlin' and a few other later tracks. But it's hard to forgive them for Kokomo and Do It Again (especially the former).
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A significant percentage of history’s greatest composers, musicians, writers, and painters had severe mental and/or emotional problems, as well as drink and drug problems. Some of them created in spite of it, some because of it. That’s not my opinion, that’s history’s. Smile is in no way worth the suffering Brian has endured (not to mention his family, friends, and The Beach Boys themselves) because of the LSD and other drugs he took to excess. But he had already had a nervous breakdown before his drug use started, on an airplane flight in late 1964. That was one reason he came off the road, and stayed home writing and recording while the others toured. But there is nothing we can do to turn back time, to change the circumstances of Brian Wilsons decisions. Should we deprive ourselves of great art because of the price it cost it’s creator? You do what you want---I’m going to continue to listen to Smile and Brian Wilson’s other masterpieces, and to tell others who are interested all about it. In case you want to investigate, The Beach Boys also created some great music in the 1970’s, starting with the Sunflower album. Brian wrote some of his best songs in the 70’s---"This Whole World", "Til I Die", "Marcella", and "Sail On, Sailor" being just a few. Yeah, The Beach Boys (as led by Mike Love) are a nostalgia act now, but they weren’t then. Dylan saw them and said "Hey, these guys are really good". The Grateful Dead toured with them. |
The attitude of almost reverence regarding Brian Wilson's LSD fueled recordings I'll never agree with. LSD shattered his career, his family, his band, hell, his mind. He went completely looney. Anybody want to lose everything in your life and end up drooling? Spend years in bed? What, nobody? Sorry, the hair on the back of my neck doesn't stand up.
The Beach Boys were never the same after they had captivated the US music scene and rivalled the Beatles. They became a nostalgia act trying to relive the glory days. What a tragedy. |
Great stuff as usual bdp24. QRP will soon to be releasing Smiley Smile. My guess is they decided it sounded good enough to release. They did a fantastic job with Pet Sounds Stereo. It beats the Ron Macmaster hands down. The Macmaster was serviceable, but the QRP is pretty special. I have Surfs Up coming from the next batch.
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I was also referring to the 1999 "Pet Sounds" release on Capitol, not Smiley Smile.
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Right, the Pet Sounds recordings aren't as lo-fi as Smile/Smiley Smile and Wild Honey. They are really bad, Pet Sounds is just mediocre! |
Pet sounds is the album i was referring to , not Smiley Smile . |
That's one great post bdp24. I don't know where you have accumulated all this info but from one BB fan to another I must say I'm impressed! I am going to SERIOUSLY revisit Smiley Smile, never one of my favorites, but with new ears.
Agree with Tostadosunitos on the Capitol 1999 stereo remix version on cd, is that the one? I have NO issues with this recording and listened last night to confirm. There is no screech or etch at least to these ears, dimensional, smooth but least of all screechy. You can compare with the original mono which is on the same disc which sounds excellent as well. If you still have a problem and you have THAT recording then I think you might want to reevaluate your system Maplegrove ;^)
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Peter Green was another sad LSD casualty and Jeremy Spencer may have been, as well. |
Brian is one of the Rock n' Roll acid casualties of the 60's, some others having died fairly recently---Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd and Skip Spence of Jefferson Airplane and Moby Grape. The effect LSD had on Brian can not be overstated; I would in fact say Smile was a result of it. Smile is more than a little strange, it is at times quite seriously frightening. I can completely understand why Mike Love couldn't understand it---it is like nothing the world had ever heard. I consider it a serious musical composition, more musically "valid" than many 20th Century Classical compositions. The audience at the premiere of The Rite of Spring was shocked and outraged? Smile is imo equally revolutionary and artistically ambitious. Listen to "Heroes and Villains". The oddest (and thrilling) chords, harmonies, counter-point, and arrangement you have ever heard. Lyrics by Van Dyke Parks, fully Brian's equal and first true collaborator (listen to Van's album Song Cycle for another great discovery). "Fall Breaks and Back to Winter (W. Woodpecker Symphony)". The title alone gives you a hint. An instrumental, it will make the hairs on the back of your hands stand up. The music sounds to me written to give the listener a primal experience, to heighten one's awareness of the physical universe in which he finds himself; it does that all right. Remind you of LSD, hmm? Smile was to have contained the "Elements Suite", the "Fire" portion of which was Brian's music, as performed by a studio filled to the brim with instruments including many strings, simulating a, yes, fire. To aid in it's recording, Brian outfitted all the studio musician's with children's plastic fireman's hats, and started a little fire in a trash container on the studio floor, just to add atmosphere. One night after a day in which a "Fire" session had taken place, a fire broke out in Los Angeles; Brian thought his music had started it, and cancelled the songs completion. The paranoia had started. The album after Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, contains "Here Comes The Night". I don't know if the lyrics reflect the dark clouds closing in on Brian, but the music is very disturbing. Yes, the recorded quality of both Smile/Smiley Smile and Wild Honey are very lo-fi, seriously lacking bass and treble, as well as overall clarity, inner detail, transparency, etc. Audiophile they are not! By the way, all the Beach Boys albums through Wild Honey were mixed to mono by Brian (almost deaf in one ear), the only early Beach Boys album offered in true stereo being Surfer Girl, for some reason. Capitol released the albums in both mono and Duophonic, their electronically reprocessed stereo. Avoid Capitol Duophonic LP's! |
What happened to Wilson is quite sad. He started hearing voices in his head after starting in with LSD. The voices never went away according to the movie Love and Mercy, until decades later.
By the time the Pet Sounds project was underway, he was a drug addict, and was on his way to his first mental break down. Offering drugs to his young children, getting totally paranoid, I aways wonder what he might have achieved without drugs and without the deaf ear as a a result of his dad's repeated ear slaps over the years.
My fave is Sloop John B.
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Try the (1996?) stereo re-mix. It's more spacious, smooth, and musical to my ear. Beyond a certain point the BB stuff was not mixed to stereo. Brian was deaf in one ear.
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Just googled Smiley Smile . It states - Genre - Psychedelic pop , Lo-fi , Avantgarde
Does this answer my question above about sonics ? Are there recordings Lo-FI ? |
Just read the discussion , Trying to listen to the digital copy i have and am reminded why i skip through the album when a song pops up while i shuffle through my library . The recording of Pet Sounds i have is painful to listen . Flat , screechy sounding . Is it just me ? Is this a sonic masterpiece on a different format or a different digital release ? |
Nice post bdp,
I discovered all of that Smile sessions material only with/after the relatively recent Smile album release and I agree with your take. It feels like a view into a warped mind, sometimes dark, sometimes child-like, always much more interesting than most pop music. I wouldn't have made it into your club back in the day, but I'm with you now.
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