hi all ! We used to just put two cd's in the drawer and listen that way , yup made a difference . Then I got a metal disc from discwasher , went on top of the cd ...and yup that made an audible difference also.Dont know what happened to the discwaser disc and I dont remember the last time I loaded 2 cd's in the drawer .It changed the sound , just not for the better or worse . |
Hi Coopershark,
I came upon this thread and feel somewhat compelled to respond. For the record, absent the Martin Logan Club, I rarely post on other websites. I like the MLC site because, amongst other things, the vast majority of folks are respectful and thoughful. After reading this and if you so choose, you can see my system on a similar thread I started on this very topic.
Google Martin Logan Club. Goto the MLC home page, click on the "Off Topic Audio Video" section and see the "Silly, stupid bargain" thread. I, like Cooper, wanted to share my personal observation on the new Evo Sig mat. Not because I have any personal interests in Marigo Audio but because I firmly believe this product offers substantial value for the money. As an aside, I think Ron is an individual with impeccable integrity and offers products based on defensible science.
For those who don't wish to do this, my system consists of the MBL 116 speakers, Conrad Johnson Premier 18 LS preamp, the Cary Audio 306 CD / SACD CDP, and a Pass Labs X250.5 amplifier. I'm listing only to provide some frame of reference.
Having recently received my 306 back from Ron Hedrick, who did some modifications, he asked if he could include his new mat for auditioning. I agreed on the basis that I could return it if I didn't care for the product. I had the previous Signature 3D Stabilizer V2 and had mixed results. I still use it on my DVD player.
Over the past week or so, I did some A/B (with and without) on about ten different occasions. I've since stopped since the results were consistent in all cases. That being an easily heard improvement in all aspects of sonic performance. Richer, more saturated tonal structure, improved soundstaging / dimensionality, and the ability to hear much deeper into the music. To summarize, a substantial increase in the overall musicality of my system.
For the record, I listen mainly to classical and jazz although I do occasionally enjoy Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Parov Stelar, Richard Thompson, Anni DeFranco, and others.
I do wonder about the relevance of a systems ability to provide a transparent / articulate presentation and its relationship to how easy or difficult it is to hear what this product does. My sense is that any "credible" system will benefit from this accessory. If your system has an overly warm presentation, you may have the opposite reaction that I've had regarding the efficacy of this device.
For me and in my system, it's an absolute no brainer and an extreme value. I would advise everyone to give this accessory a "test drive". You may be pleasantly surprised what $200 has to offer.
From reading the various posts, my sense is that there are those who disavow any product of this genre. And there are those who apparently have posted who have never auditioned this device. I don't quite understand how any credible person can do this but .........what do I know.
And for those who believe they will hear an improvement just because one has made a change in the system, all I can say is that's why you have two ears. I've been involved in this wonderful hobby for some 35 years and I believe I've reached the point where I can distinguish BS from the real deal, that being system musicality and connecting emotionally with the music.
I will gladly respond to anyone who wishes to post in a respectful manner. I will not respond to people who make gross generalizations without any objective basis for doing so.
Happy listening and Happy New Year to all.
GG |
GG,
I had just read your post on the ML site and the threads...It is amazing that guys will negatively comment based on anything but first hand experience! This is the fourth iteration of Ron's Marigo mat. I have found each successive generation an improvement, but with this one, Ron had hit the ball out of the park! If a listener hears a dulling of his audio system as a result of using this mat, then there is something wrong with that system as it is not neutral or resolved.
Now that I have been using this mat in both of my systems for several weeks, I have found the tonal signature to be like that of a good moving magnet or moving iron cartridge, as opposed to a moving coil with a hyped up high frequency emphasis. However, the sound staging and imaging is stupendous! I swear that I have another five feet of additional sound stage width on both sides of my listening room with much more resolution and sonic alignment of what is going on within that stage. The sense of the venue of the performance has never been so strong or apparent! (I use Magico Q5's and they perfectly couple to my room - The Q5's bass performance is second to none in its speed and resolution.) I have never experienced digital sounding so pleasurable, detailed, smooth, or accurate.
Until recently I was ready to upgrade my digital system. I am not in such a hurry now. I can easily live with what I have for several years to come and patiently wait for the state of the digital art to advance before I take another plunge.
I think that we are similar in that we are experienced audiophiles and that the panacea is not necessarily in changing our equipment, but rather tuning and refining what we already own and enjoy. I know that I have invested a lot of time, experience, and money into my main system. It was carefully thought out - from the listening room, to the speakers in that room, to the isolated electric delivery to that room, to the components themselves, to the cabling that connects the components, and to the control of vibration. Everything in that system has a purpose and was chosen to work in perfect harmony with everything else. I am loth to change for the sake of change.
The addition of the new Evolution Signature mat only served to confirm the positive and synergistic choices that I had made. Our hobby is about having some fun and enjoying music.
This little mat has taken that enjoyment to a whole new level.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I my only wish is that some audiophiles will read what we had written and try this new mat, particularly when they have resolving systems. Perhaps they will be as enthusiastic as you and I as to its efficacy. Please have a Happy New Year as well!
With all my best,
Coopersark |
Hi Coop,
One thing I may have not emphasized enough. I believe that the benefits of the mat (and the ability to hear the increased musicality thereof) are linear to the resolving power of the system.
That's why I recommend a "test drive" to determine if the cost is worth the value.
Best,
GG |
I have just put my 21 month old daughter on my CD player and the effect is amazing.
I suggest anyone who has a daughter try this. I hear that if you have a son you get more bass and less voluptuous highs, but YMMV. This can be compensated by adding a cat, but it has to be white. Black cats suck.
Cheers
Xavier |
Xavier,
I did try it with my cat (Abyssian) but she would not sit still long enough to perform a valid A / B test. Also had the issue of getting cat hair in the laser mechanism.
I did like the improvement with my dog (brittany spaniel) because he was heavier (48 lbs.) and would stay for an extended period, as long as I gave him some Milk Bones.
If you do use your child, make sure the diapers are fresh to preclude damaging your CDP.
GG |
Hi all ! Of course the mat changes the sound . Anything you do either on top of or under the component changes the mechanical resonance and therefore the sound . Hate to go into this again but if you cant hear these things dont blame us that can . |
The Angelic matt is much better. The highs are much more extended, bass more defined and there is a greater sense of air around the individual performers. Once you try the Angelic matt the others are a joke in comparison(IMO)...as always YMMV.... |
Is it made by angels and blessed by the Pope?
GG |
Matt? Mutt? Mat? Please, clarify |
I think it's a moot but it depends on your accent. |
Matt as in Mathew, angelic matt |
@Bradluke0
"Hate to go into this again but if you cant hear these things dont blame us that can"
Ah, the Golden Ear argument comes into play. Well, I contest that if you can't measure it, it is a meaningless point to argue. And thusfar I've not seen a single measurement referenced.
@Coppersark
I meant to throw this into my initial response to your ridiculous rant:
If a $200 mat can make a shocking improvement in a $10,000 transport, then you need to throw the transport out (and then let ML's engineers and designers know that they need to rethink things).
Lastly, here's *my* rant:
I'm kinda sorry to be such a you-know-what about this stuff, but I suppose I've finally seen the light as of late: hi-end interconnects are BS, hi-end speaker cabling is BS, hi-end power cables are utter BS, mats are BS, cable risers are BS, hi-fi power outlets are BS, wooden/sorbothane/unobtainium feet are BS, several hundred dollar cutting boards are BS, bags of rocks and chips and teleportation tweeks are *utter and complete* BS... And as a group of - I would imagine - relatively intelligent people, we should be able to see (and hear) right through it all.
If your devices vibrate so much that you need to modify them with aftermarket feet/roller blocks/spikes, to isolate or couple the device with aforementioned several hundred dollar cutting board, then you've got bigger problems and need to look into better designed equipment.
If the power from your wall creates so much noise that you need aftermarket power cables and outlets and conditioners and filters then you've got much bigger problems.
If your $10,000 transport needs a $200 mat (which I would guess cost less that 1/10th of that to produce) to really shine, then you need to get another - heck *any* other - transport.
And lastly, if you are so despirate and easily coerced that you will actually spend your hard earned money on blue dots and bags of rocks and little clocks and chips and teleportation tweeks, then you should not be making any life decisions henceforth. Geoffkait, although I don't know you personally, I will just come out and say that what you do is shameful and your "products" should be banned from this site for the sake of the integrity of this hobby that we all love.
I've often thought of how easy it would be to make my own snake oil; how easy it would be to take the proverbial candy from the proverbial baby, but it's not, and never will be, in my nature to do so. I would not be able to sleep at night after just one sale. I'm surprised others are.
This hobby has gone from one that was viewed with fascination and interest to one of complete and total mockery (go ahead and Google "audiophile")...
Don't prepetuate it. |
Budt,
Finally, you start making sense.
Ballywho- you are such a sceptic and nihilist, unfortunately, you are wrong on all accounts.
If you cannot measure something, it doesn't mean it's not measurable. Also, it's likely, we just don't know, what to measure.
That horse had been dead for a while now, it's simply back to a following statement- if you cannot hear the difference, it only means one (no, make that two) things- your system. or your ears (or both) are not resolving enough. |
Ballywho, since you don't know me and have no experience with my products, perhaps it's actually you who has no integrity, although I can certainly understand your anger and frustration. For your information, not meaning to make you even more angry, I have one of the highest ratings on the site, if not the highest.
Cheers,
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica |
Hi all ! Ballywho....what they said ( thanks guys for setting him straight so I dont have to ,lmao ) |
So here's my take.
I would never start a thread on this site.
Here we have Cooper, who wanted to make folks aware (in a well intentioned manner)of a product that may help others increase the performance of their respective system. Seems simple and straight forward enough. And what happens?
Verbal attacks, abusive remarks, and condescending comments from those
WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD THE PRODUCT.
Why this tone / disrespect you may ask?
Beats me but it's very unfortunate. It severely impacts the credibility of this site (in a negative manner) and discourages those who may want to post about an accessory, or other unusual / unorthodox product from doing so.
Have a great life Badwisdom. By the way, your user name is perfect.
GG |
Bubinga, unfortunately it's not just this website, people in general has lost their credibility as far as I'm concerned. I found a forum about this speaker manufacturer I ordered a speaker from, with discussion about his product, in order perhaps to find some new interesting facts or impressions. Instead it turned into a tug of was between 2 camps, one that either heard or owned the speaker and one that never heard it but found millions of reasons why the speaker sucks. I got so disgusted with it...and I was giving audiophiles more credit than your average yahoo reader making ridiculous comments about everything. |
Hi Branislav,
I don't get the fact that people, who have not heard a product, seem to think they can comment on its pros and cons.
It's totally uniformed and meaningless.
Perhaps they have a self esteem problem and want to pick a fight so they can make themselves feel better.
Or perhaps, they like to see their useless words on a website to justify whatever.
There are credible audio websites where the insecure don't post. Because if they do, the sites are moderated and ultimately, they get banned.
Not good for the small ego.
GG |
When it comes to "tweaks" there are a lot of unfounded claims. These claims tend to be greatly exaggerated.Also many of the claims fly in the face of logic. So you have to expect some opposition. I find the whole "tweak" camp quite cultish as demonstrated by their fanatical behaviour... |
Gordon G (Hi from MLO) asks:
Why this tone / disrespect you may ask?
Well, my view is that forum's are in general, a modern day human (male) equivalent to the 'world of nature during the rutting season', all attempting to display our superiority. (knowledge and possessions). Do forums centred around female activities attract the same heat?
I read both this post and yours Gordon, simultaneously, and as i have not used the product i dont feel qualified to add anything to either.
Regards,
Ps |
If you believe ahead of time something will make a difference, generally it does.
A financial investment usually strengthens this belief.
IMO, many listeners hear what they want to hear.
YMMV |
Yup, that's pretty much the anti-tweak philosophy. |
Hi Ps,
What affronts me are people making unsubstantiated, meaningless comments on a device that they have never heard.
It's similar to a blind person describing, from a visual perspective, a sunset.
To those who believe in the "placebo" effect, my sense is that you will always have that perspective, regardless of what the efficacy of the device may offer.
This is audio, correct?
That's why we have two ears, correct?
GG |
Audiofeil,
FWIW, and for better or worse, the $200 cost for this mat is so insignificant to the overall cost of my current system. I suspect that the same is true for many others from a proportional dollar perspective.
Money has nothing to do with it. A credible upgrade in musicality, for a very small investment is, as they say in the commercials, priceless.
GG |
Budt,
You may see it as fanatical. I see it as trying products that clearly demonstrate a clear value from a cost / performance perspective.
As I've said previously, if you haven't heard it, your comments are meaningless.
GG |
If you think a difference is heard good for you.
This makes good business for captain kaitt and other snake oil salesmen. |
there have been many comments relating to uninformed opinions. but no one has responded to my conjecture that some cd players, are either unaffected by cd mats, or sound worse with them.
i am not referring to the mat that is the subject of this thread, although i own the previous version of the marigo mat, as well as other mats.
i own an audionote cd2 player and a ps audio transport, which to my ears, do not benefit from the mats i have tried.
again, i cannot comment on the mat in question, but does someone have any ideas why a mat would not matter, or degrade the sound ? |
GG,
Isn't it ironic that everyone who had posted that they have USED & EXPERIENCED this new Marigo Evolution Signature mat, all heard similar improvements and those who have not have made the choice not to do so have done nothing but harp negativity? I find those respondent's comments totally inane and baseless, as they are speaking from unsubstantiated opinion and not from first hand experience. I had started this thread as I was so overwhelmed by the sonic improvements wrought by using this disc. Those who have not tried or experienced it have had nothing but negative things to say. Absolutely incredulous!
If someone does not want to try this mat, that is up to them. It is their choice - no more and no less than that. Those of closed and/or negatively opinionated mind will never change and should simply be ignored.
Those that want to be enlightened will take what the first hand users of this mat have had to say, based on substantiated experience and not unsubstantiated opinion and try it first hand for themselves.
Kind regards,
Coopersark |
" but no one has responded to my conjecture that some cd players, are either unaffected by cd mats, or sound worse with them."
These are two separate questions, first involving at least techical aspects and second to subjective analyses.
1. Your CD Transport read is based on RUR principle i.e. its read until right whereas conventional CD Transport read and then use error correction algorithms. Since mat suppose to imporve ONLY accuracy of the reading (its measurable and shown centuries ago - remember $15 "green pen" - I still use it and hear the difference very clearly) it design to help conventional CD Transports only.
On paper, therefore RUR reading should be unaffected by change in accurace of first read as it reads again and again.
In real life its not so simple - different ripping softwares like Foobar, JRiver, EAC should produce identical results but ...they are not. So, it could be some effect of MAT but in much lessen degree then in conventional CD Transports. As you describe - your Transport does exactly what is suppose to do (withing accuracy of your hearing)
Second question of worsening sound due to the mat - I prefer not to go there as totally subjective matter.
All The Best
Simon |
Cooper,
Don't beat yourself up over this.
As I said in a previous post, some people feel the need to post negative comments although they have absolutely no basis for doing so.
Sounds a bit like politics? The blind leading the blind or perhaps other issues with personal ego and self esteem.
These type folks exist, to some degree or another, on all public sites. Depends on the site and the moderation regarding their "shelf life".
I would suggest you post on other websites, where the participants actually use their ears to determine the efficacy of an audio product, and provide intelligent insight thereof.
Contact Ron and he can provide you with my contact information.
Best,
GG |
I just put the mat on my top loading BMC transport and companion DAC unit. I kept A-B ing disc after disc. I can say there is a definite improvement in the overall musicality and presentation. The distributor told me to return it for a full refund if I wasn't totally satisfied. To me this twek is a definite "keeper". Under those terms there is very little downside and I have gained lots of "upside" in my listening experience. |
>>"definite improvement in the overall musicality"<<
Improved musicality, now that's funny
LOL |
It certainly makes sense that the naysayers don't understand the meaning of the word musicality. |
Audiofeil,
Actually it's sad that you don't understand the concept (musicality) assuming you enjoy listening to music. |
Explain musicality to me copernicus. |
I just received an e-mail from a poster on this thread.
It was condescending and insulting. I have blocked him from sending me another e-mail.
This does raise an interesting issue about this site and its Discussion Forum.
If one has something to say about a product, is it reasonable to expect that the individual would listen to the product before making a comment?
Or is this a site where people hang out to insult and harass well intentioned audiophiles and said conduct is considered acceptable without any repercussions?
I really don't get it and don't want to.
To those who conduct themselves in this manner, please reconsider. Your conduct is counterproductive to the integrity of this site, the ability to discuss an audio product in a respectful / intelligent manner and serves no positive purpose.
If someone moderates these forums, please contact me and I'll provide you with the details of this unfortunate incident. |
I think Mrtennis has it correct or at least has had similiar experiences to mine. I've had many CD players, transports and DAC's and found a wide variance in what coupling and isolation devices can do, that includes mats and shelve's made of many different natural and exotic material's, cones, balls, spring's, spikes, ect, ect. I have not tried active isolation. My current setup is a great example, my Ayre CD5MP prefers a solid carbon fiber base while my Audio Research DAC8 insists on being directly coupled to the two inch thick wood shelf thats part of my stand, put anything under the DAC8 and it protests with audible anomalies. |
Ah yes, the term musicality can mean many things to many people.It is one of the most idiotic terms thrown around audiophile circles. What does it mean? Ask 10 audiophiles and you will get 10 different answers. The term is basically meaningless. I have probably used it myself, funny.
I must admit. I kinda had a chuckle reading Copernicus's response as it reminded me of a child tattling. |
It's not that difficult a concept. Musicality is the inherent realism of the sound as determined by dynamics, microdynamics, tone, rhythm, detail, density of sound, size of soundstage, and emotional impact. Insiders know what the word means. |
In your opinion and I'd rather be an outsider if that's the case.
The problem is that musicality, organic, Prat (one of the dumbest audio buzzwords), etc. are nebulous at best. Every listener interprets them differently.
Insiders know this. |
musicality concerns the principal effects of playing an instrument, namlely, timbre, dynamics,pitch (the nfundamental), harmonics, and tempo.
soundstage is an artifact, it is not part of the definition of music.
it is purely an audiophile term. |
Disagree re soundstage. Soundstage is inherent in the recording. I.e., room size and room acoustics are embedded in the fabric of the recording, at least for live music. |
"Every listener interprets them differently." So, you know what everyone thinks, eh? Interesting. |
Geo,
Of course he does.
Just like he knows what an audio product sounds like without listening to it. |
Audiofeil is absolutely 100% correct. No one interprets senses( ie. sound) exactly the same,no one.If you think about it I am sure you will figure out why. |
hi geoffkait:
i searched for a definition of music, on-line. i found the following, sourced from the free on-line dictionary:
the art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm and timbre.
notice there is no mention of soundstage or dynamics. dynamics and soundstage are by products of performing a musical composition in some space, but the latter aspects are not part of the definition.
recorded music would connote the usual audiophile terms of which you speak. but the denotation does not include them. |
While I don't subscribe to online dictionaries, it's nice to know the dictionary agrees with most of my terminology. I'm quite sure all real audiophiles cherish soundstage and dynamics. I know I do.
Cheers |
>>01-14-12: Geoffkait
So, you know what everyone thinks<<
Don't twist my words. I said everybody has different interpretations of "musicality", "organic", and "prat". Think that's wrong? Show me a forum or thread where there is universal acceptance of those terms. You can't huckster.
>>01-14-12: Bubinga
Just like he knows what an audio product sounds like without listening to it.<<
Please point out where I posted that? You can't. Too bad bubby.
>>01-14-12: Geoffkait
I'm quite sure all real audiophiles cherish soundstage and dynamics<<
Irrelevant. The issue was whether or not there is univeral acceptance of audiophile buzz words as mentioned above. Which there isn't. Tough luck sparky. |
Rest assured I am not your buddy.
All the disparaging remarks you have made clearly infer you have not listened to the product?
Have you or have you not heard the product?
And assuming you have not, why have you chosen to post on this thread in the first place? |
