Tekton Double Impacts

Bullitt
I have no idea how you fit 100 seats into your Mustang, but what kind of mileage does that get? :-)

"Do you want to live forever or something? :-)"                                                                                                              Well, I was planning to until you burst my bubble...

@brotw , the Benchmark AHB2 is a phenomenal SS amp and I recommend it highly. I also think you would benefit from a tube preamp. It's been said that the AHB2 is a perfect conduit so your front end will make or break it. Using my Modwright Oppo with its tube stage direct to the AHB2 is very satisfying.

The LTA MZ2 is not only the best preamp I've ever heard but also a killer 1 watt amp. It sounds incredible powering the DI's to acceptable levels but i feel a little headroom would be better. It's also maintenance free, that is if you don't mind replacing tubes every 10 years.

The ZOTL40 is an incredible tube amp and like the AHB2 has far more power than you need. You will find no deficiencies in bass output in this amp compared to SS or at least it's very close. You will definity enjoy better midrange. I have also owned Decware amps and am a fan but the LTA amps make the Decware sound broken.

personally, I am waiting for some new products coming from Linear Tube Audio in a few months. I like to stop in frequently and see what they're up to since I live close. It's a blast because I get to do A/B listening tests on stuff they're working on. I can't really elaborate now but the best is yet to come.

Lance

@Brotw - No we didn't use a tube pre, because I wanted to compare pure apples to oranges with SS versus tube. 

Nonetheless, I think the Blackhawk would supply plenty of power for your room size. We barely even touched the full power of what the Blackhawk can do. The 20w Blackhawk (I'm told) might just hit up into the 100-150wpc of a SS amp in a high efficiency speaker. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept, but that's what I heard, as well: ear bleeding levels in a pretty large room. 

Or call Raven up and inquire. 

Otherwise, what David said, yes. 

@Bullitt and @Vitop - The tube amps like the Blackhawk and ZOTL40 are self biasing, so there's no need to fiddle with that. Moreover, the tubes are said to at least give 50,000 hours, yet assuredly more, perhaps into the 100,000 range. That's 2,083 days, or 6 years if you played them straight through, at 50,000 hours. 

But let's say that you only use them 2 hours a day: that's well over 20 years. 

Do you want to live forever or something? :-)

@bullitt5094  Are you therefore, watching movies outdoors in your Mustang....?    : )

@bullitt5094  It's great that you have the opportunity allowing for @evolvist and @vitop to audition your new equipment and provide feedback, etc.

In this case, I think it's easy for Klaus to 'swear' : )  Since it isn't close to being a fair 'fight' with your Denon pre. 

Looking forward to hearing about how it all works out within your system!

Perhaps I went off on a tangent... 

Oh, I’m totally on-board with that opinion Vitop. There currently isn’t a tube in my system. The Odyssey Candela Pre I’m getting only has two tubes. Klaus SWEARS I’ll love it and if I don’t, he’ll take it back. The Kismet power amp I’m getting from Klaus isn’t tube. Fully SS. This is exactly why I would seek your and Nick’s opinion on it. You both are open minded, but SS leaning. Exactly as I am. But more experienced in the hobby. But I’m still going to decide what it is I like as the final answer. It’s what we do in this hobby. Right?
And my set-up will have a HT pass-through. I use my system as much or more for HT than I do for Music. Hopefully that will work correctly or I’m in trouble with the boss.

And cool to hear you’re also a car guy. That is my expensive hobby. I have a mustang running 8.6 at 160 in the 1/4. The black hole in the garage into which I pour money. I could have built a stand-alone 100 seat home theater for what I’ve spent on that car since I purchased it in 2001.

btotw, Maybe Lancelock will weigh in on your question. He has an MZ2 pre, and has used a ZOTL 40 and the Benchmark amp with his DIs. I think the SS amp brought a little more bass heft and control w/o losing the harmonic richness.

Bullitt: I'm open to anything but my nature is to try to get something where I really like it and leave it alone. I have so many things on my plate that I don't have the time (and honestly don't like) to tinker. Once I have it, there may be more to have, but why go after it if I already really like what I have. Having said that, what I may not have heard may be a quantum leap from what I feel is great so I always keep an open mind. That whole explanation is a prelude to why I have never liked tubes. By my nature, I like maintenance free. I used to be a big car collector. I would restore to the point the car was almost new and super reliable. I could have continued to tweak horsepower every weekend, but then I wouldn't be enjoying the fruits of my labor. Tubes have a finite lifespan. I don't want to have a tube go out in the middle of a movie (yes, I'm still HT centric) or be trying new tubes all the time. I like SS. You buy the right one, put it in and enjoy. I heard Daves Raven amp. I really liked it -- a lot. But I have also heard SS amps that I really like a lot. I really do not think one is inherently better than the other. Only ones that appeal to individuals more than others. If I hear a tube amp that I really think takes things to the next level, I'll rethink it, but then I have 11 channels to deal with and I'm still not clear on how to do a stereo bypass and even less clear on if I want to.

Evolvist: I got the impression that Eric was talking about how the sound waves normally hits in nature was curved and so that is what he was going for. Electrostats by their nature are flat and Eric felt that they could never truly convey sound as we normally hear it in the world around us.

I'll (hopefully) soon have my Odyssey tube pre and SS power amp. I'm sure evolvist and maybe Vitop could review the tube to SS sound for everyone. I admittedly have not been exposed to the high quality level and quantity of amps/speakers etc that they have. I just know what sounds good to me. We did use Nick's power amp for a while when he was here. And it sounded really good. Certainly an upgrade over the Denon. But we were still using my Denon as the Pre feeding it, so I'm sure that hampered the results. I'm looking forward to a high quality pre-power on the front end.

@brotw 

Brody, I encourage you to keep an open mind on possibly going solid state....there are many paths to getting to where you want to: tubed, solid state or hybrid. 

Right now I'm listening to Steve Coleman's 'Invisible Paths' on an all solid state system....and the results are absolutely fantastic. Especially wonderful since it's before the household is up (and all is quiet). 

I read your earlier posts and questions. I have heard Line Magnetic products while demoing speakers. I have not heard the LTA, Triode, or Decware products, etc. All are roundly praised. I'd add Melody to your list if you decide to go tubed and integrated.

My advice is not component specific. I'd say to go with the best integrated you can swing per your budget and move to separates when you are able to and have a much better feel for how to best create the synergy you are looking for, from the DIs at the end of your system chain. If you are playing a wider genre of music, the additional power you mention will come handy and deliver.

I'd put the savings (from one less component and PC and IC) towards a really good power cord and an effective platform and footers for your component. I believe what's done on the periphery of a system is as important as the component.

@evolvist  After speaking to Eric briefly at Tekton I was left with the impression to not discount the need for power for playing loud. I also have a large 16x20x8 room to fill.

Your review of the Raven Blackhawk and comparison to the Benchmark ABH2 caught my attention. Like the rest of us, I don't want to sacrifice too much quickness and detail in the bass region for tube magic. 

Sorry if this horse has been beaten to death, but would a quality 50-100W ss amp - class A or A/B (Benchmark ABH2, Pass, Coda, ..?) with tube pre provide a better path to bass definition and midrange magic on the DI's? Did you use a tube preamp with the Benchmark for your comparison with the Blackhawk? Raven Audio is at the top of my DI amp short list again. I'm also skeptical that a sub would integrate well should I find the bass not detailed or fast enough with the Blackhawk. My guess is to just buy the Blackhawk. What little is lost in the bass, much is gained in midrange clarity and sparkle?

I need an amp to demo these Gallos and move to the DI's.

@Vitop - You know, that’s very interesting, the concept about other models of loudspeakers not behaving like anything in nature. I’m not sure what kind of "curves" that Eric is talking about, but as we know with headphones, many of them are tuned certain ways to accentuate certain frequencies.

I’m not saying that’s the correct way of designing headphones and/or speakers, yet I’m reminded about the ear/brain connection and how the brain is more attracted to dynamic sounds as they occur in nature as opposed to mechanical ones. It’s much how the eye picks up the color green more than any other color due to our ancient ancestors living in jungle/wooded areas that were rife with predators. Anything that contrasted against green sent up a red flag, so to speak.

The point is, in my study of the ear/brain connection this harkens to the "Loudness Wars" and how dynamically the ear brain wants to reject the compromised, digitally compressed music that has been the rage over the last 20-years or so.

It makes me wonder, then, about Tekton’s patent and if it’s not simply a way to adjust the voicing to be more "natural." Therefore, is it the speaker’s responsibility to be as flat as possible, or is it a natural representation of sound that caters more to what the brain wants to decipher? I figure that a hi-fi speaker should yes, be surgical and resolving enough to hear the smallest nuances of the music, though what is a flat frequency response if not a graphical representation of what people have determined to be correct and true. They are mere plots on paper. Sure, there is merit in the study of frequency, despite how we all internalize certain frequencies in different ways. There are some of us who might loathe the sound produced by a trumpet, yet revel in the sound of a musical saw.

Here’s the trip: at Bob’s house I noticed that digitally compressed music was much more palatable voiced through the DIs. It made me wonder if the DIs are a more "natural" conduit - a champion of dynamism - that plays music more in the the way that people want to hear it versus the way we’re told *how* we must hear it.

I doubt that the Tekton "magic" occurs with wild peaks and slopes across the audible frequency band; however, with much talk of "overtones" and such, perhaps we’re giving the actual music a fighting chance here.

@teajay   Thank you for sharing the details on your system. Very helpful.

however if someone knows what there doing I’m sure you could get the speaker to work well in a somewhat smaller environment.

Hopefully you’re correct Terry. The current DIs are positioned in the corners and seem to have no ill effects from that. Which surprised me. I even put up panel at the wall reflection point and all that did is narrow the sound stage, so I removed them. Eric told me there would be no problem with the DIs in the corner too and was correct. I’m currently adding no room correction at all. I’m not sure evolvist believed that when he was here because he asked me about three times if I was sure. At any rate, we’ll know in the near future.

Agreed. We are starting to see cabling, speakers, dacs and digital electronics that represent astounding value and performance. There is a portion of our community that will not open their minds and simply discounts the exciting reality around them. 

I am thrilled that Tekton is shaking things up. 

I’ll go one step further Teajay. The problem is not exclusively with some "print " reviewers but high end consumers as well who will reject the idea of lower cost audio products performing at high levels. There is a mindset that believes  the more costly then surely  the better.

It’s true that "generally"speaking you get what you pay for but there are more than  a few exceptions to this type of thought process. Teajay as you well know, you have to actually listen to components and form an impression.
Charles

Hello Mr_m,

Its interesting that you should suggest that Eric seek a review from either Stereophile or the Absolute Sound.

Just today I received a phone call from a highly respected reviewer and owner of a popular audio website.  He wanted to share his respect for the owner of hometheaterreview.com, Jerry Del Colliano for having the "balls" to publish my review and my honesty at stating in the review that the 3K DI's easily out performed my 19K reference speakers of over five years.

He went on to state that the print publications would be sacred out you know what to print an honest review on the DI's when their very financial security is based on getting advertisement $ from the fat cat speaker companies that might frown on a review that states that a 3K is as good or better then their 30K, 60K, 100K over priced speaker.

Hello Teajay, 
Thanks for the initial cursory listening impression of the Tekton Ulfberths. I find it so interesting that this speaker and the Double Impacts are so easy to drive.  Your room has considerable cubic volume to say the least.  It's near fascinating that the 3.5 watt Triode Labs 2A3 SET  can fill your hugh volume of space in such a satisfying manner. 

Again we have something else in common, the Star Sound Sistrum Apprentice platefms.  I use them beneath  my speakers and every component in my system.  This is an effective and excellent product. 

Hey David,

Thank you for your kind words.  The rest of this system is a Krolo Tomo rack, either a reference MBL transport or CEC TL-3N transport, Concert Fidelity hybrid-040 DAC, MG ribbon speaker wire and IC's, Harmonix studio master power cords, and a Running Springs Dimitri power conditioner.  

@teajay   Terry: Thank you once again for your ongoing contributions to this thread and now the overview of your findings about the Ulfberths at the beginning of your evaluation.

I purchased the Double Impacts immediately after reading your review the day it was published...and have not regretted that 'oh so quick' leap of faith that I'm generally much more careful with. So thank you again, personally, for all of the joy these speakers have brought me and to my home.

Are you able to provide us with more detail about your current entire system, beyond the preamp and amp, so we can get a feel for it?  This would be very helpful...like the note about using the Sistrum Platforms.

- David.

Hey bullitt5094,

I'm very lucky to live in a post and beam open design house.  Besides the amount of wood running through the whole house the totally open space is Height 30 feet / Width 30 / Length 50 where the system is located.  

I would think you would want at least 5 feet off the front wall, 3 to 4 feet off the side walls.  I do not have to use room treatments, however if someone knows what there doing I'm sure you could get the speaker to work well in a somewhat smaller environment. 

Terry, thanks for the pre-review, review. Lots of us are jealous out here. Would you tell us the overall size of your room and what you would think would be the minimal size for the Ulfs to work well. I've actually had this conversation with Eric and he doesn't think my 12 high, 14 wide, 20 deep dedicated media room would be a problem. We even discussed the necessity of having them a foot from the side/rear walls with bass traps behind them. This is necessary to keep them from being in the way of the HT screen. I'm sure there are better positions, but again, he doesn't think my set-up would be problematic. 

Terry
I was actually just wondering earlier today if you had gotten your Ulfs yet. So far, it sounds great. I don't have the room (nor the money) for those, but your review is really welcome. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about these.

While Eric is at it, give a pair to Stereophile and the Absolute Sound:)

Hey everybody,

I just spent the last six hours listening to a pair of  Ulfberhts that are in for review.  Setting them up on Sistrum speaker platforms is a two man job and I want to thank Allan for all his help ( Allan was an early supporter of the DI's and hosted the Chicago Audiophile Society meeting at his house a few months ago to have the members hear the DI's).

First impressions:

1) These are BIG speakers that need a lot of acoustic space to breath and be able to preform to their maximum potential.  Fortunately, I have a 30 foot ceiling, the speaker is 7 feet off the front wall, 6 feet off the side walls and the back wall behind my listening position is another 15 feet.  

2) I'm driving them with the Micro-ZOTL preamp and the Triode Lab SET 2A3 amplifier and get to higher sound levels with ease with less gain on the volume control.

3) Eric has taken the basic magic of the DI's to a higher level of refinement/finesse in this speaker.  It gives you even more transparency, more effortless overall dynamics, more liquidity, more precise layering and placement in the soundstage, and the bottom end is much more extended and powerful.

4) Remember, these babies are not close to be being burnt-in, I'm assuming everything will get better in the next 50 to 70 hours!

5) Since I believe that these are even a more pure conduit then the DI's you better be very careful with what you drive them with.  My pair have an extra set of terminals on the back that you can insert different resisters to slope off the high end if the amp you are using is to "hot" sounding.  My own personal taste/bias is to use tubes and the combination of low power SET amps with the Micro-Zotl is an absolute killer on this speaker, just like the DI's.  The top end is beautiful with this gear, so no resisters are necessary.

6) Do the Ulf's  make the DI's irrelevant, not at all, the DI's are still great.  If you have the right acoustic LARGE space to house the Ulf's and have deeper pockets then indulge yourself with this great speaker, indeed!  Remember, our great mad scientist Eric is coming out with DI's SE, baby Ulf's , so what will these creations sound like in comparison to these will be a treat to find out in the coming months!

All of the above is my cursory first take on this speaker.  I again feel honored that Eric picked me and hometheatereview.com to receive/review the first pair of Ulfberhts for professional evaluation.  

Maybe, Allan will post his impressions of these speakers when he has the time to.

Evolvist: Eric and I recently had a conversation that started with my electrostats and he mentioned that the sound wave from them was horizontal (flat and hits evenly top to bottom). He mentioned that few things in nature sounded like that and that he wanted his wave to be curved. All that I can think of is that perhaps the top and bottom bass drivers with the other drivers in between them might create a curved sound wave like he wants. This stuff is all beyond my depth so asking Eric would be best.

Say, this just dawned on me: the Ulfberhts have bass drivers at the top and the bottom.

Does anybody have a notion, a feel, or perhaps a little science of how this will effect the sound?

The top bass driver is above the line where the tweeters and mids should be pointed at your head, because from the looks of it, the listener will face a wall of mids and three tweeters, the last tweeter closer to the floor, pointed, where...closer to your crotch or knees?

I wonder how this plays out. I don’t have a clue. Just from looking it would seem that the image would be very even, or a complete mess. Jeffrey has them, though. He thinks they are aces.

The harshest gear critic I know came over today for a DI demo. I expected to have the DI’s taken down a notch by his scathing review. 2 hours later he was at my door putting on his shoes saying they are one of the best speakers he has ever heard, specifically the bass and natural sound of the instruments (he is a musician) I can see a speaker like this appealing to musicians more than the ultra ego audiophile types. Being the only person in the area with a pair I should be able to share a negative review at some point but so far they have been enjoyed by all.

@mdolfnwhr Welcome to the DI with Receiver crowd. That crowd being you and me as far as I know. I have a Denon 4520 pushing mine and it sounds pretty good, as far as I'm concerned. The lower priced front end and DI phenomenon is fortunately going to happen more as the price of the DIs allow individual without lottery levels of income to buy them.  I can assure you that at only 30 minutes now, the sound of the DIs is going to improve significantly. Mine certainly did. Enjoy!

Congrats on your purchase and enjoyment of the speakers! 

If you would, keep us informed of your progress with them. :-)

Just a quick update... without any room correction, without moving the speakers around to find the ideal location (though taking y'alls suggestions!), with a receiver as my amp (Outlaw RR2160), without any feet inserted until just today... the upgraded DIs sound wonderful after about 20-30 hours listening time.

I am sure there are better speakers out there, I haven't heard them all and can't pretend to have done so, but having purchased these speakers without having heard them I can assure you that I couldn't be happier. With all the other tweaks and added equipment I can only imagine how much better they get for those of you that are that way inclined.

But if you're like me and keeping it relatively simple (at least for now) they have my vote of approval.

Right Charles, no doubt about the 508ia. Something tells me I need to be patient and wait for a higher quality used set integrated without the 220/120 conversion issue. 

Brotw,
From all indications I’m aware of the 508ia is a higher tier amplifier in all regards compared with the 218ia. No put down of the 218ia at all. According to fellow audiogoners Wig and Waltersalas the 508ia (805 tube) is extraordinarily good. I trust both of them given their long track records on this site. Good ears and experienced with many high end products. Only thing is I'm not sure about transformer voltage conversion/compatibility. 

Charles

I also see a LM508ia (euro 220v version) that comes with a 1000 watt transformer. Is the transformer/ 220V version an issue or should I just  pull the trigger on this one to pair with the DI's? I'm guessing this is a large improvement over a LM218ia

Brody,

I've used both the Raven Blackhawk and Torii mkIV with the DI's and they are very nice amps. I prefer driving the DI's with the LTA MZ2 and will add either the Triode Labs 2A3S FFX or a LTA amp later this year.

If you're looking for a used Torii mkIV that is nearly new let me know as I haven't gotten around to selling mine yet, but I would suggest going the SET route with an MZ2. The MZ2 sound is very fast, dynamic, detailed and organic and from what I'm told a SET will add even more texture while breathing more life into the music. While I'm very satisfied with using the MZ2 alone there are times I wish for a bit more power and I'm very interested in hearing that SET magic on the DI's. 

Brotw,
I believe that you’ll be very happy with either the Triode Labs 2A3 SET or the Line Magnetic 218i a 845 SET amplifiers. It seems that the 218ia is a scaled down version of the 518ia. Some people have some hesitation about LM because it’s a Chinese product. I believe there’s ample evidence that LM is a genuine high quality line.

Triode Labs has earned a very good reputation for being a high quality manufacturer. I can see the attraction to the higher power offered by the 845 tubed LM 218ia. It may be a question of what sound do you want? Well implemented 2A3 or 845. I happen to like the sound of a good 845 SET, Teajay on the other hand doesn’t like the 845 sound. As is usually the case it’s a matter of preference.

I have no doubt the 2A3 SET driving the DI sound as good as Teajay described. Factoring in value/-performance, a used LM 218ia would be tough to beat. Putting better quality tubes in the amplifier (particularly the 12AX7 in the preamp section) would be very cost effective. I’m not sure if the preamp section is by passable for use with a separate preamplifier. I believe that both of these manufacturers pay appropriate attention to power supply and transformer quality which make or break when it comes to a  sucessful SET amplifier design. 
Charles

@ Mac48025/Charles -  I wanted to provide an update on moving from ss and class D amped Gallo Ref 3.1's to the Tekton DI and tubes. Only the speakers and an old Parasound remain. Is it just me or have these DI's caused many used speakers to come on market?

On the amp choices, I'm looking at Decware Torii and Jr. as well as Raven pushpull amps but am leaning toward SET. Buying new would steer me toward the 3.5w triode lab 2A3S-III but I see a LM218ia set integrated used at a much more reasonable price. What's the dish on the 218?

While I want to get off the upgrade merry go round and start settling down, the value of a used LM218ia is hard to ignore and my wide range of music may like the power. Keep in mind otherwise I may be driving the triodes with a W4S dac-2 as preamp, yikes! I'm guessing that mz2 would be needed at some point. Thanks.

Brody

I have the Ulfs, but no Naim gear. Just BHK monoblocks and BHK preamp with Yggdrasil dac.

James, I think there's one Ulf owner and no mini Ulf owners, as of 08-11-2017. I could be wrong, though. But maybe those folks have Naim gear. 

If anyone has the chance to try DI's, Ulfs or Mini Ulfs with a Naim Supernait 2 or 250DR feedback would be appreciated. 

+1 @bullitt5094  @evolvist @james_w514   This is very similar to what other direct to end user speaker manufacturers are doing. So Tekton isn't the only one.

With my recent Pass amp purchases, I have to pick up shipping and insurance both ways and it's only a 14 day trial. For the 30.8 that was around $200 for a very short trial...realistically only about 5 days at full on performance, post run-in guidelines. 

Tekton's offer is far superior. 60 days is generous. 30 days is the norm.

 And there are no restocking fees, which some are starting to add...and which I understand and agree with since there is a very real added cost at the manufacturer's end.

For those into numbers....even if one factors in a very generous 10% return rate as a general speaker return rate, the up front real cost of the risk is around $30 for taking that chance.  I'm being very simplistic here. (Factor in some other variables, and it drops even further).

It really is a no-brainer of a deal. I'd take it for just the learning opportunity.

The cost of return shipping is well worth the price of being able to evaluate in home risk free. With some stores if you return speakers they will only provide you with store credit where you are limited to the brands they carry and there could be a restocking fee.  

Tekton in Thailand...Noooooo!!!

@pts - one-way shipping. Shipping to you is worked inro the cost of the speakers. If you don't dig her, you only have to eat the fee for her train ride back to Thailand. 

@pts  You are a good man! Good of you to do so with your family's full involvement!

Most guys would go behind their back. : ) 

"60 Days in a Motel" sounds like a movie title! : )

"Actually it's the opposite of a blind date. She lives with you in your house for 60 days. You don't like her, send her back home. No strings attached."

Except perhaps footing the bill for shipping both ways of these huge beasts. So buying them blind is a date with the whole family and you're paying for dinner.

But yeah, I'll ask Eric - good suggestion.

@pts   You may want to reach out to Eric as well. He may have sold some DIs within the greater Los Angeles region. That's where I'd start.