Great to hear audio enthusiasts talking about value audio systems and room correction. Here's was what my road to value looked like.
When my receiver performing preamp duties for my 2 channel died, I switched to a used W4S dac-2 (doubling as pre-amp) fed with a home built pc with Live Dirac, Roon/Tidal,HQPlayer and Jriver. I stayed with 2 channel since I couldn't find quality surround dacs with room correction at affordable prices. I briefly entertained the idea of a Marantz 8802 pre/pro purchase, but realized I was more interested in hifi music - not spreading money over a dozen speakers. If I wanted to spend more money, that would be in the mains.
Basically, the dac and correction cost $1000 plus computer costs (everyone has one of those right?). The sound quality improvements with the dac were thrilling, but the once room correction was in place, my jaw dropped. Not sure how I ever thought my system sounded good before that.
One thing I've learned (personal preference) is that audio system enjoyment is proportional to the quality and selection of your source material. A lossless music streaming computer based audio/video system that allows me to watch 2.0 DTS-MA blu-ray through Jriver, rip blu-rays, surf the net and play video games (super quiet PC build) is satisfying indeed.
That was value to me. $1000 + power amps which allows me to integrate tube sound (not offered by the Lyngdorf - just sayin'). The only drawback is that it takes a wee bit of tinkering on a computer, or a bit more for building a computer with the ideal quiet/gaming pc at reasonable cost trade.
So glad I didn't punch the "easy button".
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I have a non dsd dac and have not tried dsd. There can be streaming issues with Dirac due to the convolution time delays. I have to rip to mkv to avoid pops and set a large buffer in jriver.
Dirac may be a 90% soln as I still have to disable it for games and non roon\tidal streaming. HQplayer may output native dsd to Dirac. Thats how i run roon |
Looks like you can getter done through HQplayer via down sampling to 24/192 pcm (dirac filters up to 24/192) http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html but I digress, now back to the double impacts? |
Integrated tube amp suggestions?
I've really enjoyed reading all the insight from tube audio folks. So much so, I've placed all my SS gear up for sale, hoping to remake a system with the DI mains and a tube integrated.
I am going to miss my anthony gallo Ref 3.1's as the truly disappear and have incredible stereo sub bass with the SA amp. When calibrated with Live Dirac and class D amp, the detail and imaging is off the charts, hyper detailed and etched, but physically feels and sounds like each note has fangs on it. My ears grow weary.
I'd like to retain my W4S dac-2 and wonder if there is any value in using it or an upgraded dac as a preamp. Since a remote is a requirement, I'd have to use the W4S dac gain stage with the potential Decware Tori Jr.(no remote). Does the ss gain stage from the dac ruin the sound or flatten it? Or would I be better off with a full tube integrated with remote (dac fixed output) like the LM 218ia or the Raven Nighthawk/Blackhawk? The room is large 16x20x8 and figure less than 20wpc could leave me wanting, especially when watching movie sound effects or listening to rock/ Exodus thrash if I'm really low on vitamin M. Most listening is jazz, blue grass and vocals.
Are DI's sensitive enough for a Triode Lab SET (2A3S-III) @3.5wpc to provide reasonable spl levels in my large room. The Triode amp appears similiar to the Decware amps minus the volume knob where both amps still require the use of my dac's ss preamp funcionality. Ideally a seperate quality tube preamp would be used but that pushes me out of my budget. I'm thinking a more resolving DAC upgrade would pay more dividends. Line Magnetic 218ia is also a SET design, but few other manufacturers reach the 20+wpc range, not sure why.
Maybe I should just keep what I've got and insert a tube pre to take the edge off this setup w4s dac-2>tube pre>(ST-500mkii/SA amp)>Gallo Ref 3.1 I'm guessing starting over with the DI's and a full tube signal path is the better way.
Amp recommendations appreciated, $2000-$4000 budget.
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Interesting. The gallos are in no way bad, just missing a bit of midrange sweetness, bass response is near 20hz on the Dirac results and tight as hell. Maybe a tube pre will go far enough to fix the ss/digital edge. Thanks twoch |
@Mac48025
Good reminder. The narrowband RF transformer explained in the TAS review of the MZ2 makes sense for power bandwidth and high turns. As an RF EE, technical explanations are interesting. I take it no -s configuration needed for the tube and ps upgrade.
Charles, I've been watching Teajay's reviews closely. The magic seems to be with purchasing the MZ2 as a pre. I may have to buy a non-integrated used $1.5-2.5k amp to remain in the $4k budget and the Triode Labs seem rare. A more common used Rogue or Primaluna amp may have to hold me over for a bit and has easy resale. A Tori Jr. might also work.
Thanks for all the help. |
@grannyring These are the same Gallos. I guess the class d amp, while smoother than my Parasound HCA1200ii in the midrange and definitly stronger in the bass, has some sort of irritation associated with it. I wouldn't be the first to complain.
The Dirac improvement is amazing, so much so I'm suprised more 2 ch people don't use some sort of RC (maybe their room treatments are that good). My unfiltered sound is mud, so panels and trap time maybe.
My cables are 10 gauge blue jeans cable with gold plated bananas. IC are something cheap but not the real thin garbage. I do us an MIT-Z deluxe outlet for filtering (did lower the noise floor) but no special power cords or fuses. Mains are 10ft apart and with listening position 9ft back. I could try getting closer to a rule of thirds 7/7/7 for the 20' room and pull the speakers closer together.
The Parasound should go back in to test for relief. Gallo 3.1's are known to be a bit thin in the midrange (MZ2 the rescue?), I guess that's why I'm after a different sound with the DI's and tubes. Trouble is I've heard PSB T3 ported speakers and while the midrange was glorious, the bass was lacking definition. Would have liked to plug up the ports in back but the covers were missing. Kind of goes along with sealed subs are faster and more musical or am I wrong?
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@grannyringc Come to think of it, I am using blue jeans IC as well! It's been 8 years since the purchase, but you jogged my memory. Assembled the speaker cable myself.
If your right, some new western electric 10 gauge might help. I'm not one for expensive cables but Cerious is getting alot of attention for their power cords and speaker cable,teo audio for their IC.
I took your advise and moved the speakers closer, 6.5 apart and 8 feet from listening position, I also turned the Gallo Ref 3.1 speaker woofers outwards, yes, still haven't sold 'em for the DI's. Ran the Dirac cal and made several filters, some rolling the highs.
The results are still impressive. When instruments and voices are crystal clear and feel like there in the room, the system is not far off. The sound is still sharp and nips at my ears. Turn Dirac off and some irritation goes away, veiled with the muddled images. Not too different from the viel of noise i got from a bad receiver preamp.
A good power cord and tube preamp may be all I need, maybe some cable too. Thanks
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Mac48025/Charles - I wanted to provide an update on moving from ss and class D amped Gallo Ref 3.1's to the Tekton DI and tubes. Only the speakers and an old Parasound remain. Is it just me or have these DI's caused many used speakers to come on market?
On the amp choices, I'm looking at Decware Torii and Jr. as well as Raven pushpull amps but am leaning toward SET. Buying new would steer me toward the 3.5w triode lab 2A3S-III but I see a LM218ia set integrated used at a much more reasonable price. What's the dish on the 218?
While I want to get off the upgrade merry go round and start settling down, the value of a used LM218ia is hard to ignore and my wide range of music may like the power. Keep in mind otherwise I may be driving the triodes with a W4S dac-2 as preamp, yikes! I'm guessing that mz2 would be needed at some point. Thanks.
Brody |
I also see a LM508ia (euro 220v version) that comes with a 1000 watt transformer. Is the transformer/ 220V version an issue or should I just pull the trigger on this one to pair with the DI's? I'm guessing this is a large improvement over a LM218ia |
Right Charles, no doubt about the 508ia. Something tells me I need to be patient and wait for a higher quality used set integrated without the 220/120 conversion issue.
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@evolvist After speaking to Eric briefly at Tekton I was left with the impression to not discount the need for power for playing loud. I also have a large 16x20x8 room to fill.
Your review of the Raven Blackhawk and comparison to the Benchmark ABH2 caught my attention. Like the rest of us, I don't want to sacrifice too much quickness and detail in the bass region for tube magic.
Sorry if this horse has been beaten to death, but would a quality 50-100W ss amp - class A or A/B (Benchmark ABH2, Pass, Coda, ..?) with tube pre provide a better path to bass definition and midrange magic on the DI's? Did you use a tube preamp with the Benchmark for your comparison with the Blackhawk? Raven Audio is at the top of my DI amp short list again. I'm also skeptical that a sub would integrate well should I find the bass not detailed or fast enough with the Blackhawk. My guess is to just buy the Blackhawk. What little is lost in the bass, much is gained in midrange clarity and sparkle?
I need an amp to demo these Gallos and move to the DI's.
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@david_ten - Your right about the integrated, makes sense. If a used LM508ia comes up, that would be my choice. Seems value is easier found in used purchases unless the new products are really that good, and I'm not finding used Raven and LTA gear or significantly discounted DI's for that matter.
@lancelock - scenarios to work an LTA MZ2 into the mix will prove expensive but that first gain stage is so important. Noise Figure equations from my high frequency amplifier class are coming back. An integrated from LTA would sure be interesting.
@bullitt - I too share your passion for cars. My twin turbo CTS V-sport, though not quite as fast, can carve corners while sipping the gas. Sinatra hasn't found it's way onto the usb stick yet. |
Come to think of it, anyone in the L.A. area have some DI's they don't mind demo-ing?
The young kid, who bought my amplifier last night laughed when he first heard my system. He's a Bose rep, no joke. I think it was "M.B" or "Knives out" from Brad Mehldau with the stand up bass and percussion focused that caught his attention.
He wanted to know how did I get these musicians "in the room". My reply was to swap a stand alone dac for the receiver and use quality calibration. Garbage in, garbage out.
He walked away, old parasound in arms, knowing it would not be the weak link for some time to come. |
Makes sense Corelli. Maybe an unconventional diagonal listening axis where the speakers are spread apart in front of a room corner. The possibilities are endless, oh joy. Simulation software could prove advantageous here. Thanks. |
His room acoustics ... provided a good soundstage and imaging. Several GIK panels were used. Something I will need to work on at home. |
@waltersalas My listening session with Matt at Pitch Perfect went well. His room acoustics The LM 508ia and Devore O/96 speakers left me impressed. Piano was reproduced with realism in tone so that I could hear the ivories. Stand up bass and sax timbres were accurate and well controlled.The few tracks of the hardest rock/thrash did lack ultimate punch, but I am coming from high powered ss Gallo Ref 3.1's which are incredible for that.
One thing for sure, this LM508ia is an excellent all around SET amp that doesn't break a sweat with hard rock, 80's, pop or funk/R&B.
I'm excited to hear some Legacy speakers with Raven Audio gear. Dave Thomson has been really helpful and seems to know what I'm after. A touch of sweetness in the mids and highs without too much sacrifice in bass speed and precision. To my ears, ribbon/cone speakers have always sounded great across a wide range of music.
Maybe a pass labs xa-30.8 deserves a try before pulling the trigger. I don't have the time or energy to over shop this, but 2 or 3 demos should suffice.
Kind of hard separating the amp from the speaker when listening to a combined sound.
Speakers will either be the DI's, Salk HT3 or something Legacy.
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David, Computer room correction with Live Dirac has been a revelation in my system. I am excited to try room correction with tube amplification. W4S ST-500 mkii class D didn't work our for me, but I would have much prefered room corrected class D to the uncorrected Parasound. I don't doubt the Lyngdorf sounds good to you. Room correction is a powerful tool.
Charles, thanks for all your commentary. I finally pulled the trigger on a used Raven Blackhawk. The LM508ia demo helped me understand your sonic descriptions of "fleshed out" and "meat on the bones". Had there not been a used deal available I may have stepped up to the 48 watt SET or the Pass XA 30.8. The money saved will allow for GIK treatments and some better cable.
Has anyone here with tube amps tried room correction? Does it hurt more than help a well treated room? Maybe tone, timbre and presence is sacrificed for imaging, focus and clarity. I've read that room treatments before attempting calibration provide much better results than correcting a bad room to start with.
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Greg - So glad you shared your story. I too have tried to find sweeter midrange production with these Gallo 3.1's. Tried parasound and the latest W4S class D amplification, with W4S DAC-2 and Live Dirac calibration. Clarity, detail and imaging was always good but I remained convinced there was something better that would retain speedy bass performance, air and improve midrange with tube glow and texture.
Enter the Raven Audio Blackhawk. This was always meant as a match for the DI's, but holy cow, what this integrated does for these 88db Ref 3.1's is amazing! Talk about speed, sparkle and texture. Details emerge without the sterile qualities many amps impart. After insisting that my wife listen, she suggested pulling up some Fergie, Beyonce pop tunes from tidal. Reluctantly I started listening only to find beautifully textured voices from these stubborn midrange speakers. Jazz instruments seem more acurate tonally and rock music still has plenty of punch. This may be one of the best integrateds for multi-genre music listening. I am thinking Pass XA30.8 or
AricAudio SET KT-88 territory but with a preamplifier. To cut this short, my listening experiences paralled those found in the reviews.
A couple of nit picks - driving 25-35Hz on the Live Dirac test tones revealed limitations. This equated to the absence of club/rock concert bass room pressurization ambiance, so step up to the higher power Raven integrateds or 250+wpc ss if you want earthquake bass. Captain of the obvious.
The remote has nice weight and feel but the button press feed back could be better.
We all know Dave Thomson of Raven provides excellent customer support, but that fact should be a side note to the wonderful music his amps make. The amp was packed well with extra tubes for rolling with labeling and an extra battery for the remote.
I am going to trust your experience Greg and move forward with the sale of the Gallos, as good as they are sounding now. I could be ordering the DI's with upgrades as soon as Monday.
Brody |
Mac, The KT120 Aric amp may just be the ticket. I just didn't have a good enough pre or dac with built in pre to trust the first watts.
I meant to follow up with you on the Focus SE experience, but soon realized it was a $ bridge too far for this round of upgrades. Did you consider less expensive RAAL speakers like Salk HT2-TL? Sensitivity is not as good so amp choice is more limited.
I like to think you get what you pay for but with the largley unanimous experiences here, the Tektons DI's may have to be tried.
From what I gather, what the DI's lack in driver quality and precision is replaced with an uncanny ability to present a live music sound to recordings. |
David, somewhere in this very long thread I thought I read that these speakers were better at creating the illusion of a live music performance rather than scalpel sharp detail reproduction. The comments about the speakers being revealing of upstream components and being a perfect conduit should have clued me in to the clarity capabilities. No doubt there are better drivers waiting for the SE version.
Apparently Vitop thinks there is plenty of precision, case closed for me. Sure would have been easier with a speaker demo. No doubt this thread was valuable for choosing an amp.
Anyone using the Herbies threaded or giant threaded stud gliders with the DI's? What size and recommended length? Sorry if this has been covered already. |
Vitop - Ribbon tweeters sound great and when integrated with cones, seem to provide wonderful air with dynamics, so going with the Tekton DI's as opposed to hybrid ribbon/cone speakers like the Salk HT2-TL or Legacy Signature for a bit more $ has been a tough pill to swallow. The Seas drivers used by Salk with RAAL ribbons are great and the "get what you pay for" feeling is ever present. Perhaps the sum of expensive parts in one speaker doesn't always have the synergy a well designed speaker has with cheaper components.
Listening to DI's has not materialized, unless someone in the L.A. area chimes in. My "case closed" comment was coming from a position of having read the entire thread full of rave reviews and feeling like I may be overshopping this. Your right though, I shouldn't just take your word for it. These forums have been fun but they really can take time. Valuable during upgrade season. |
@david_ten I was thinking taller feet as well as I had similiar results with some large Jamo Cornet 100's back in the 90s. There were no feet, so used brackets and JB weld with threaded rod and caps, a college upgrade. Bass tightened up nicely.
Your comment on doubling up the isolation with shelves and additional gliders had me recall the Townshend isolation speaker platforms. The price has me looking for other tweeks. Is your isolation shelf basic mdf or something fancy? |
@david_ten Those are all excellent suggestions. Now I remember writing off the Sistrum platforms due to potential instability near kids. I'm giving the Gaia feet a serious look, thanks for the lead. Just like mountain bike frames, a carbon fiber platform would provide significant high frequency absorption.
Funny how this topic has many similarities to plane wave antenna mode scattering with impedance matching (spiked feet) and ringing currents (cabinet vibrations). Unfortunately loss is rarely an antenna designers friend, but i digress. |
Vitop - Hi Fi Destination in L.A. is a Legacy dealer near me and have been meaning to check them out. I'll stop by next time I'm in the vicinity which isn't too often. Raises my blood pressure.
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Hoping to get some guidance on speaker placement from our DI owners here. I've been reading tutorials on speaker placement and acoustic treatments from Argen. They seem focused on studio monitor implementations with critical listening and accuracy the primary goal but also mention home theater and music. What I'm concerned with is the "Speaker Boundary Interference Response". The only way to mitiigate this with full range speakers is to smash them up against the front wall avoiding any nulls in the bass response. (see null frequency vs. speaker from front wall equations). All these tips fly in the face of DI's "needing room to breathe". Furthermore, the listening position needs to be atleast 10 feet or more from the back wall in their view. This leaves little wiggle room from the 38% from front wall listening position model. Why does this speaker placement guidance run contrary to the idea of giving these speakers space? Maximum accuracy is good, right? http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/ |
@teajay @grannyring - Preparing for the purchase of some room treatments has me studying up on room acoustics. This youtube video addressed the role electronics, speakers and acoustics play in the sound we perceive. I found it informative. Yes, still a relative noob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bbmWd00HYM Long story short - Acoustics play the major role, followed by speakers then electronics. Bad acoustics can totally destroy the detail and resolution you were hoping to get out of that expensive dac. "All the recording engineers, whose music we are listening to, are listening to speakers that were carefully placed in a room and equalized. Good enough for them who do this for a living, should be good enough for you, as long as you use a good quality equalizer."-Anthony Grimani, MSR Acoustics, President Personally, I've never heard room correction not improve a room, but that was with sparsely treated rooms. What I've never heard is a well treated room, with full tube electronics compared with and without room correction. The new sound I got from the Raven Blackhawk came through my Gallo 3.1s beautifully. No class D like digital nasties or listening fatigue, and far greater texture and tone all while running correction. I'm still open to the existence of artifacts of correction, especially when there are 30dB untreated room mode swings.
A crazy looking wideband filter to perfectly counter untreated room effects requires unlimited taps and digital filter coefficients. Think infinite fourier series. In addition the cost function balances phase and magnitude response (digital mixed phase FIR filter from Live Dirac ), so phase corrections can still come at a price of frequency response ripple or vice versa. I read somewhere that room corrected tone/timbre, presence and the overall naturallness of sound dramatically improves once treatments were employed. This makes sense to me given the limited resolution of even the best room correction.
Fixing the number of coefficients allowed, a transfer function curve fit is orders of magnitude more accurate if the target curve is smoother or better behaved (treated room). Live Dirac only cost $400, makes the most dramatic positive changes of any one component I've experienced. I'll turn it off if ever I don't like it. Anyone see a reason not to use GIK? |
Mac,
So true about having a room all to yourself. I can already imagine my wife's response to the room treatments.
Once the DI's arrive and treatments are placed, I'll check in with the results.
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evolvist - 30-100Hz is going to be the tough nut. The rest looks straight forward although I should pick up that "Get Better Sound" book just to be safe. From the reading I've done, conventional air velocity traps aren't nearly as effective as diaphragmatic absorbers.
MSR Dimension 4 Spring Trap is looking promising. What the pair of MSR Spring Traps miss may be cleaned up with GIK tuned membrane traps.The stereophile review with decay results is impressive.
I see some folks recommending Hedback Acoustics for consulting/design, but these folks need to get paid to do their modeling and consulting and I'm guessing the result is outside my budget. He uses foam bass traps in the corner, go figure. Wish there was some room mode witch doctors that weren't selling their own wares offering an unbiased opinion on treatment efficacy.
Dennis from Acoustic fields has an interesing diaphram/activated charcoal design but I can't make sense of the measurement results.
Any suggestions for low bass room mode absorption?
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@greg22lz Thanks for the desricption of the Cerious speaker cables and DI's. I'm thinking TEO game changers for the IC's. I'd love to hear your setup next time I pass through the area.
@aniwolfe Totally in your camp on the needing electric and stand up bass definition/clarity. My father played R&B in my early years engraining the importance bass lines and how they make music pop. Many of the favorite classic rock bands also have the most musical bassists. I'm betting the DI's provide that clarity and authority given enough power, room accuracy and correction - just put them, on order!
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Well what do know, I stand corrected. Room corrected that is. This time it's the Double Impacts and a Raven Blackhawk integrated with a Live Dirac PC. Still sounds much better corrected. The comparision will be much more meaningful with the bass traps and panels that are soon to arrive.
I'll follow your lead Bullitt and try the DI's closer to the wall. I'm guessing this is done to clean up the low frequency SBIR and ease the job for wideband room correction.
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When I saw my DI order go out lightning fast, I knew there was a mix up. Called and Eric picked up. Problem solved. We'll see how how the grills go.
Bill - awesome job, I can almost smell the solder. |
My 2 channel upgrades are nearly complete. This thread proved to be a valuable tool in selecting amps and convinced me to buy speakers without an audition. Thanks to all for your contributions.
The DI's with upgrades have 60 hrs of run time and are sounding excellent with an LM508IA 48W SET. This is a beast of an amp and could have easily sent me to the chiropractor. The sonics of the Devore O/96 and LM508 setup heard at Pitch Perfect while impressive, don't really have much on the DI's. The bass definitely sounds tighter with the DI's and images are better defined but that is usually attributed to the Live Dirac hocus pocus I run. Tonal accuracy may be a smidge off compared to the O/96's but again, the DI's sound more live.
A notable also ran is the Raven Blackhawk. The vocals were wonderful with plenty of high frequency shimmer. I would have kept it, had it not needed a repair. That was my opportunity to upgrade, yet again :(
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Thanks guys. The NOS 6SU7GTY in the 6SL7 spot and the Psvane 805's made a significant improvement. Some Gaia isolation footers and pucks ought to tighten up bass and kick drums. Percussive jazz like The Bad Plus
really grooves with the extra power.
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Thanks guys. I've got a NOS 6SU7GTY in the 6SL7 spot and Psvane 805 T/2's which made a nice improvement. Listening to The Bad Plus has me thinking of Gaia isolation footers and pucks to clear up that stand up bass and kick drum even more. Love those 48 watts for percussive music.
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Yes, more confirmation that these feet might really be worth it. The non-SE owners should be ok saving some money on the GAIA II 120 lb limit (14 lb margin) for the standard DI's. Thanks for the report
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LOL, the sedentary time this hobby generates has to balanced somehow. Good for you Corelli, for me it's the treadmill.
@mac Makes sense the footers would transfer less vibration when under less compression, hence the benefit for the larger Gaia I's. Thanks for pointing that out.
Could be that benefits of a DAC upgrade may be partially obscured if first reflection points/acoustics and speaker isolation are not addressed first.
@david_ten Really enjoyed Bad Plus at San Fernando Perfoming Arts Center (CSU Northridge) with Brad Mehldau Trio. Seeing fingers on the strings while hearing is so cool, makes me wish I could play bass. Stanely Clark at the Catalina Jazz Club put on a great show as well. |
Whoops, Greg you got the fast one :) |
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@david_ten that lead sled is still really cool. Bikepacking is really catching on and I totally get it. |
@david_ten not many suspensionless bikes grab my attention but who needs suspension with tires like that. Could be the ultimate comfort trail bike as long as your not facing big drops. Here in the Santa Clarita area we have plenty of big rocks and drops so 4-5" suspension is a must. I still need to try one of those. Happy trails. |
Tom, I think you'll really like "Do it again" and "Gold Prisms" off Inevitable Western and "Beauty has it hard" and "Dirty Blonde" from the Joshua Redman album. I also enjoy the Made Possible and Never Stop albums. In the same vein, I really like Brad Mehldau Trio's "Ode" album.
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On the subject of kids, currently I've got the DI's in a dedicated listening room and will make it even more so dedicated with GIK panels and traps. As I think back to my childhood, dad always had the music playing in the main kitchen/family room area, constantly exposing us to the gift of music. I would like to do the same but acoustically it is a disaster area, many windows that really shouldn't be covered up for asthetic and sun lighting reasons.My 7 year old will have to take a trip up stairs if he wants to listen. Quality wins out over quantity this time. I still hike my 4 month old upstairs for some low level classical or jazz.
On a separate topic, has anyone integrate a sub(s) succesfully with the DI's? Looking for that 20-40hz room pressurization and punch that only a sub does right. My Live Dirac room correction should make this easier. Dual subs L/R seem necessary to integrate more seemless with the seperate L/R DI's. I've heard a single sub works well for below 40hz service as a budget entry point. |
@david_ten really enjoying that John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman. When Bad Plus gets too busy, I move to Bill Evans. My LM508 does a respectable job with stand up bass but I'm still looking for a sub to pressurize the room for that captivating concert feel.
Corelli - Those Hsu subs look like a good value play. Rock will sound better, but I'm hoping acoustic bass lines pop and become prominent in jazz trios bringing that small venue concert feel to the listening room. Let us know how that integration goes with the DI's |
Oh the many similarities between microwave and audio. Speed of light ~ speed of sound, waveguide/cavity modes ~ room modes and case in point, electrical ~acoustical reflection coefficient and energy coupling.
When it comes to speaker isolation, the goal is to pull as much standing wave or ringing energy away from cabinet so that it doesn't color the driver sound. Several stages of performance likely exist in this goal.
First, maximum conduction of acoustic energy from the speaker. Manufacturers may improve this by integrating solid metal bases into there cabinets to conduct maximum energy into the footers, likewise, speaker stands/platforms maximize area contacting the speaker base for maximum conduction.
Second, provide an acoustical loss mechanism. The interface and acoustical conducton of energy through spikes to the floor will always be flawed, providing reflected and unwanted energy back to the speaker. Lossy materials minimize energy at the spike floor interface, moreover, the acoustical noise ringing in your floor is attenuated before it is conducted back to your speaker.
Third, acoustically lossy material would be usless if it did not effectively conduct energy off the threads in the base of the speaker or platform. I'll guess that these footers/platforms with lossy materials could utilize several variations of materials to impedance match (acoustically of course) from metal to increasingly lossy materials in the center of the sandwich between the threaded inserts and the spike tips.
Basically reflection and transmission occur at every material boundary interface. Remember to tighten those drivers. Wait a minute, are there any gaskets between our DI cabinets and our drivers? Lossy gasket materials that allow the ideal combination of conduction AND loss should improve the sound as well.
Sorry for the long winded post or being captain of the obvious. So many of the EE designs I've worked from antennas to RCS involve similar concepts.
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Coaxial midrange/tweeter drivers for car audio have time alignment issues but don't sound terrible. My suspicion is that powerful bass frequencies travel all through the cabinet ricocheting of end points and arrive at midrange drivers as spurious noise, far more damaging to perceived midrange audio quality. Also, internal speaker reflections occur at tiny fractions of bass frequency wavelengths exciting much higher frequency content in a cabinet (unless it's a transmission line design). That's where RF and acoustic energy analogies part ways. Low frequency energy can vibrate smaller structures to be transformed into higher frequency content, think higher frequency buzzing from those trunk subwoofers blasting rap.
Does mixing in the RF world apply to acoustics? If it does than a 60hz cabinet horizontal plane resonance distorts midrange by +/- 60Hz while high frequency vibrations would obviously be much more damaging. Another thought is that the cabinet is small enough that it may not effectively couple that low of frequency, or the midrange driver mounting is to small an aperture to effectively couple those frequencies. Dali does some work on driver rigidity to eliminate resonances and distortion.
I do believe the horizontal plane distortion at low frequencies remains as an equal and opposite reaction but is not coupled into the cabinet material. Hence the directionality of the Gaia footers delivering optimium results.
While I'm no expert on the subject, Herbie's footers would seem to work great on hard wood or tile since the lossy material comes in better contact with the hard surface as opposed to carpet. Mapleshade products are interesting and I share Tom's sentiments on the blocks.
Given how lively the DI cabinets are, it's not surprising an engineered sandwiched footer makes such a difference. I suspect first reflection point treatments on the walls and ceiling could fall into the same level of improvements. Room correction still delivers large improvements for me, but will find out more as I treat my room.
Merry Christmas everyone. Really enjoyed this thread over many months.
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@david_ten The Herbies Giant Gliders with an isolation shelf makes sense as a 90% solution, especially with carpet. Since I'm on a budget, the law of diminishing returns and value has to be obeyed. Did you say you were using some one off composite platforms or do I have you confused with someone else?
I could always try some spare particle board shelves as an A/B comparison, better conduction into the shelf but doubt without substantial acoustic attenuation. Perhaps isolation pucks sandwiched between 2 shelves and the Herbies. Could be more trouble than it's worth and just stick to the Herbies alone. So many possibilities!
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David, Thanks for sharing your set up. For us with carpet, the alternatives to Gaia footers are more complicated as a spiked end point with absorptive material or roller ball somewhere in the chain is desired. There are ways to make this happen (mapleshade, rollerblocks, ingress bearings) but I'm leaning toward the simpler Gaia approach or go budget with Herbie's threaded glider approach (on carpet). |
Just dropping in after a long hiatus from
audio
due to a new baby. Sometimes you just stop listening and forget how magical music can be especially with DI's and an LM508 lying dormant.
It all unfolded when my buddy from work stops by unannounced with a surprise gift, and I suggest "Hey, you've never heard my system". Let's do this I told myself, I haven't listened for 6 months! I had the herbies giant glider footers installed but I never recalibrated. After that night I was reinspired. Picked up some bass traps and panels used that weekend and got a new usb cable. Also recalibrated after careful speaker repositioning with REW bass response measurements.
The footers and room treatments brought a large improvement. The Curious Cable improved even further. Realism of instruments, vocals, soundstaging is stunning. Bass is super tight. Thoughts of bringing a subwoofer in are dashed. This LM508ia is a beast, and what a beautiful pairing with the DI's!
This is the thread that lured me back into audio, selling all my gear and building a do it all music genre tube amp / DI speaker system.
Thank you david_ten, waltersalas, grannyring and many others for inspiration and wise guidance. |
I haven't tried Hypex, but a W4S ST-500 mkII class D was not my cup of tea. To be fair, a tube instead of ss pre would have helped greatly. |
