Tekton Double Impacts

David,
I didn't know you had interest in the CSL  at some point in time. It and the Frankenstein are a very high quality pairing. I believe that any genuinely good Line Stage and power amplifier pairing will work quite successfully with the Double Impacts. 
Charles 

@teajay  As always, thanks so much for sharing your findings here. 

I see this as a really terrific development and a great option for folks who may be considering a new amplifier to drive the Double Impacts.

Good to know that an amp with multiple tube type possibilities and with more power...and therefore more versatility with speakers (those less efficient than the Double Impacts) and likely easier to justify across a wider range of music types...is a great pairing with the DIs.

Hi Charles. Thanks. I understand about the logistics and can extrapolate from your findings.

Still, I do believe it would be nice and helpful and informative to have had the Coincident gear ahead of the DIs, if only for another combination possibility with the DIs. If you recall, I nearly went with the Statement Linestage (with volume control) for my preamp choice.

Perhaps a Coincident vs LTA-Triode and now LTA-Auric pairing might be on the agenda? : )

Hi David, 
Lastweek when I went to Tom's home I thought about bringing the CLS  along with the Frankensteins  (which are mono blocks). Simple truth,  I didn't feel like lugging 4 component chassis with a combined weight of 140 mpouds. Besides we wanted to primarily hear the DI and Frankenstein pairing with the M2Z-S as the preamplifier. 

Today's listening comparison told us both what we needed to know using my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers. The Double Impacts would reveal the preamplifier contrasts easily I believe. 
Charles 

@charles1dad  and @mac48025  

Great information and sharing of your demos in both of your respective systems. Very, very helpful. 

Was there a reason why you only used the Franks with the DIs and not the Statement Line Stage + Franks with the DIs when Charles visited you, Tom? Perhaps you did and I don't have it right?

Forgot to mention that the AricAUDIO SET KT-120 amplifier is a powerhouse SET putting out 20 watts per channel.

Gentleman,

I very highly recommend that you put on your short list of very affordable hand made SET amplifiers, the AricAUDIO Transend Series SET KT-120 amplifier.  Kenny had already mentioned on the thread that he was having Aric build him a custom SET 2A3 which I'm sure will be a superlative piece of audio art/performance.

When I setup this review with Aric for hometheatereview.com on this SET amplifier I was a very "Doubting Thomas" because I have never personally liked KT-88, 120, or 150 based amplifiers.  I found them all to be very solid state "ish"  for my ears.  Well, after 10 hours of listening to the Transend SET KT-120, being driven by the Micro-ZOTL through the Ulfberth's I'm patiently shocked how this amplifier sounds!

If I was blindfolded and was asked what type of tube was being used I would swear that it was either a world class SET 300b or possibly a 211 based amplifier.  I have another highly regarded set of SET 300b mono-blocks in-house for review that are great and they retail for 10K.  Plus another thousand or so if you are going to get the best tubes to run in it.  

Well, Aric's amp out performed these mono-blocks and its retail price is $2,350.00.  Totally transparent- oozes mico-details effortlessly, a sound-staging wizard, great tonality, sparkly/sweet highs, silky smooth like a SET is supposed to be, and finally balls to the walls dynamics and the best control over the Ulf's gut pounding lowest octaves.  

Is it better then the Triode Lab SET 2A3?  No, it's a very different presentation of the music almost like comparing apples to oranges. The 2A3 is all about dense color tonality, lush liquidity, more meat on the bones, and oozing of the sound into your room.  The SET Kt-120 is not quite as intimate or romantic, but gives more "clean" leading edges with out cutting your ears, more "kick/pop" to the underlying pulse of the music, not quite as colorful timbres- but wonderful tonality, and control over the bass with an accurate "iron-fist".  They are both superlative, personal taste would decide which one is for you.

Well, I'm still pretty much shocked that I would ever say things like I did above about a KT-120 based amplifier.  However, I had never heard this tube used in a SET design amplifier before.  Aric, now joins my list of very talented designers/builders on the market today.  

Final note:  Rolled in some NOS Sylvania Gold Brand 12AT7's (12au7's, 12ax7's are compatible), instead of  Russian Electric Harmonic current production, and the amp just got that much better!  You can also use KT-88, KT-150, or 6550 power tubes to get different "tastes" in your system and whatever you roll-in/change you will easily hear it through the DI's or Ulf's.  I'm looking forward to trying a pair of NOS Brimer Yellow label 60/60 12AT7's to see what magic will happen in this amplifier.  



   

Muzikmann and Snopro,
You two express an interest in the LTA MZ2-S and the Coincident Statement Line Stage (CSL) comparison. Tom (Mac48025) described the differences well and I really appreciate him brining his preamplifier to hear in my system this afternoon.

The MZ2-S was a good match as a preamplifier with the Frankenstein driving Tom’s Double Impacts, transparent, fast and clear with very good detail retrieval. In my system it exhibited the same traits. In direct A/B comparison with the CSL I heard the following areas of improvement with the CSL playing the same music after both were sufficiently warmed up.

1 Dynamic energy, contrast and increased "pop/startle factor"
2 Instrumental weight and presence, the sense of flesh on the bone" noticeable increased.
3 Superior musical ebb and flow, swing and soulfulness, Musicians were more in the room and very tactile with that elusive the "breath of life " aura, or you being in the recording venue. In short, more reach out and touch vibe taking place.
4 Larger scale presentation across the board and particularly with rhythm section instruments i.e.piano, stand up bass and drums very significantly more present and realistic.

I would categorized the MZ2-S as a "good" High End preamplifier.
The CSL would be by relative comparison be categorized as "superb" it is very transparent and very open. The main distinction between the two is noticeably more dynamic force, weight and superior harmonic richness,fuller tone, overtones and texture. The MZ2-S relatively speaking has a leaner and lighter weight/presence and sounds smaller in scale. This made it sound less (but not devoid) emotionally engaging.

To put in proper context the MZ2-S is 1800.00 dollars and weighs about 5 pounds and has a separate small power supply of about 3 pounds.

The CSL is 5500.00 dollars, is 2 chassis and total weight of 70 pounds (power supply chassis weighs 40 pounds).
In my opinion Tom’s Double Impacts would easily reveal the differences due to their resolving ability.
Charles

@porscheracer, thank you for the update.  I am glad that you got the satisfactory resolution.

I had not heard that grey9hound. I'm a big fan of Steely Dan. Sorry to hear of his passing. 

Thanks for the musical suggestions, I enjoy trying new artists out. 

Good to hear porscheracer. They really are amazing speakers and it's good to see you're enjoying them. 

Had the pleasure of hearing Charles' system today. His Coincident system including their Line Stage, Frankenstein 300B mono blocks and Coincident speakers ( I forget their name) is the closest to real, live music I've heard in a system. I'm not surprised as his Frankensteins in my system took my sound to a level I've not heard before. After trying my MZ2 in his system ( more on that in a bit) I can confidently say the DI's are not the weak link in my system. Adding the Coincident Line Stage and Frankensteins to my system would give me a sound I could be very happy with for a very long time. I'm going to experiment with a 2A3 SET for now but the Coincident sound has set a high bar for me. 

Comparing the MZ2 to the Coincident Line Stage was quite a dramatic contrast. The MZ2 is very good as a preamp and I'm even enjoying it as an integrated amp currently but in Charles' system it sounded lifeless compared to his Line Stage. Comparatively it lacked in dynamics and fullness. Charles would be better able to describe the sound difference. Not a knock against the MZ2, the Line Stage just sounded that much better yet. Maybe the synergy between the Line Stage and Frank's is part of it. I do know that the combination of the two is magical. 

Thanks to Charles for sharing his system with me. I've learned much from him and one of the lessons learned is that the DI's will reflect whatever is placed upstream of them with a transparency that is impressive. 

I guess we all know by now ,maybe not ,that 
Walter Becker of Steely Dan died at age 67 on Sunday Sept 4th.
I told my wife that i  wanted to see them this next year .. before I DIE !
I never thought about one of them dying .
Of course I MUST mention that all of the Steely Dan and  Water Becker songs  are great on the Double Impacts . Try out some songs from  Two Against Nature ; Everything Must Go; Gaucho;
And Donald Fagen's "Morph The Cat" and "Sunken Condos" albums.
Also try some Bela Fleck and the Flektones on the Double Impact. especially songs from the   UFO Tofu;  Three Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest; Little Worlds;and  Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo albums.
Try also any of the Mushroom Jazz albums and the Verve Re-mix albums .....Great Stuff..

I could go on and on of course , but please try these and give us  your impressions,especially  if something stands out.

@wschee,

I decided to not replace the woofers.

After talking with Karma it was decided that I would let the speakers go for a week to see if the indentations went away. After a week, the indentations didn't go completely away but were hardly noticeable unless you looked close. 

When Karma called back a week later, just as she said she would, I told her that I was comfortable with them they way they were.

The speakers sound wonderful and I didn't really want to risk changing that sound.  Plus, I really don't see myself selling the speakers any time soon.

I am a satisfied customer.

@porscheracer,  did you get the new woofers from Eric? How were issues of  the dented cones resolved?

@klh007 

always fun, engaging, wildly dynamic and live sounding

I fully agree.

In my case, they are not paired with Border Patrol gear. But the above remains consistent with your assessment of the Volti Audio Rivals and the descriptors you used.

The Double Impacts have greater transparency, clarity, and inner resolution / micro-detail.

Each portrays the energy in / of the music differently.

I'm listening to Elliot Smith's "Hamburgers" from the 'Heaven Adores You Soundtrack' album as I type and the drum work sounds terrific.

It's very early in listening time. I will report back in a few days.

What is the general opinion of the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium preamp?

Lance, We had the MI gear at Excalibur in Olde Town Alexandria, it was one of a few amps to compete with Krell, better sonically and just missing the cachet that was Krell back then. Now I really want to hear your system, before the 1.1 goes back to Annandale.

@klh007 , im loving the DI's and interestingly enough using the Mirror Image there is much more bass now with this rare gem of a SS amp. As much as I enjoyed the Benchmark AHB2 it sounds a little anemic in comparison. I think David would agree since during his visit we played both. You will need to return for another listen. Unfortunately I will have to return this amp to David eventually.

Lance

David, I have heard Greg's Rival's at 2 shows with BP kit, always fun, engaging, wildly dynamic and live sounding, rooms I just want to hear what music they're going to play next. I heard the DIs at Lance's, not broken in and with prototype tubes, very dynamic, great detail along with nice tone and richness, bass a little light and soundstage just needed some more work on placement, a real affordable bargain in the High End, and soon I'll hear them broken in with Mirror Image or Benchmark SS amps. Please give us your thoughts on a comparison between them. 

David,
I’ve heard Volta a few times at shows (but only with the Border Patrol amplifiers) and they were good sounding speakers.

I think that the tone and timbre is a more simplistic issue for me and probably more of a dilemma for you. By that I mean I don’t analyze it to the extent you do. I am simplcstic in that I really just rely on what I hear and go with my reaction to it. That makes sense as we’re 2 people who have their own individual quests, standards and approach to audio. True diversity if you will 😊

No doubt that your Pass Labs XA 30.8 does justice to both the Volti  and Double Impact speakers. I can tell you that the First Watt amplifier loaned to me sounds very fine driving my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers. I hope you’re having an enjoyable Labor day.
Charles

Hi Charles, Your additional perspective is appreciated.

Unfortunately I did not have the opportunity to audition or demo the Pass XA 30.8 prior to purchase. But in the case of the 30.8, it's been out for a few years and extensively reviewed and discussed. Definitely not the leap that some gear can be.

Kenny was very helpful in my evaluation of First Watt vs the .8 series. He, as you and others here at Agon know, is a certified First Watt Head.

Though he didn't succeed in walking me to First, he did throw a strike when I got to the fork with a choice on either side. : )  The Dutch are still pissed off, but I don't think they are that into baseball.

As to " easily pass[ing] [no pun intended] the realistic/-believable tone/timbre test" I'm not sure. Which is my point. I would say the same of the Franks or the MZ2S Triode 2A3 combination. 

Enjoyable, absolutely! Including your pairing as well as others.

Speaking of enjoyable and musical...I just rotated Volti Audio Rival (Horn Hybrid) speakers into my system. Very, very nice!!!

Hello David,
I’m in complete agreement with you concerning the immense complexity of the auditory-brain pathway and it’s associated anatomy, physiology and processing mechanisms. For certain there’s much scholarly effort and research into this topic.

Fortunately as a consumer and music lover it doesn’t require an in depth exploration into this field of study. We can listen to various components and choose what we feel sounds best to us.  . The beauty is that High End audio offers many options and most of us eventually find and buy what we’re after.

I just assume that you bought your Pass Labs XA 30.8 based on "listening" just as I use this same criteria (listening) to purchase the Frankenstein. It easily passed the realistic/-believable tone/timbre test to my satisfaction 😊. I’m sure your Pass amplifier did the same for you.

At the end of the day my only objective is to do what’s necessary to make my listening to music experience at home better and more emotionally involving.
Charles

Hey Lance,

I strongly stick to my position regarding having enough space, at least 4 to 5 feet off front wall, at least 3 feet off the side walls, and 2 to 3 feet from the ceiling.  So, it seems you do have enough space to set the Ulf's up to perform their highest ability.  And believe me this is one great speaker and a true bargain, just like the DI's, even at 12K!

Hope this helps. 

@teajay , what is the minimum size room you would reccommend for the Ulf? I have a 30' x 36' unfinished space above my office. The ceiling is angled and peaks at about 20', I can change that. My intention is to eventually build out this space but reduce the size of the listening room so there is other usable work space.

Lance

@charles1dad  and @kdude66 

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful responses. I need to push myself with educational research on the topic.

My gut response is that these issues are much bigger than just what our ears hear.  I believe there is much higher end processing going on (beyond the physics of the sound wave as it enters the ear canal) and when the emotional connection aspect is introduced I would say things become oh so complicated. I believe it becomes about sensory pleasure, again beyond and certainly not limited to just one sense, in this case hearing. 

For me, it is easier to accept that SETs are perceived as, or believed to be, more pleasurable to an individual (they certainly have been for me) vs being 'better' or having 'the edge' with tone / timbre.  For me, the tone / timbre 'thing' remains highly elusive. 

Hey Bill,

You will just have to wait for my review to find out if I purchased the demo pair!

porscheracer,

I can relate to your situation and your not being in any hurry is a good thing and that is a wise decision.

I gave you my impression of the freya many pages back and I won't repeat it here.
You need to understand that most of us on this thread are experienced,picky and fussy audiophiles for many yrs.

If it was me I would also stay with a preamp that uses the 6sn7 octal tube,I'm very biased though.

Kenny.

@teajay 

Ulf? Will it find itself in your system?

Bill M

For a 6sn7 preamp the deHavilland UltraVerve 3 Preamplifier will be hard to beat. Call her for best pricing and you will find it reasonable. 

The unit can be upgraded easily with a couple of part upgrades for even better sound. It is a wonderful 6sn7 based preamp. 

@david_ten 

Oh, I am a long way from making a preamp decision. I am not going to rush this. Now that I have the Pioneer M-22, the gain of the Freya preamp in tube gain mode is no longer an issue. I have 40 6SN7 tubes which is why I was looking for a preamp that uses them. I can always sell what I have, and break even, if I decide on a preamp that uses different tubes.

The 2 channel system sounds really quite incredible now and I would be more than content if I am unable to improve upon within my self imposed budget constraints.

I'll probably buy a used preamp at some point to compare to the Freya. That way, if I don't like it, I don't lose too much when I sell it. There were a lot of suggestions...some, while great, are quite expensive.

Rja, on my DI's the Freya preamp was noisy. The passive and solid-state sections were okay, but the tube gain section was just too noisy to listen to. I tried several different tubes in it with the same results. I then went with a BHK Signature preamp and it was nice and quiet.

One question about the Freya someone mentioned earlier. Did you want a replacement for additional features or because of some sonic shortcomings? Thanks

evolvist,

I would say you have some good news and at the same time you have also some bad news.

I sure hope you get those minis in a timely manner and that you enjoy some really good music played from them.

Kenny.

David,

You have inquired about a very personal and subjective aspect of reproduction of music for the playback in our home.

It's going to be difficult for me to add anymore than what Charles has already said but I will try.

When I judge a system for my personal interpretation of what sounds the best,most natural with reference to real instruments and voices,and also Important to me is correct Image size,I listen for the following criteria in this order.

Tone 
Timbre
Texture
Overall soundstage presentation which would include Liquidity or holographics.

If my system pleases my ears in these aspects,especially the first 3 then I concentrate all my attention to the stage and judge critically to what I interpret to be believeable for a recording.

Basically If I listen to any system and the tone is to bright or to dark for me I stop right there and make changes to my system.

I'm not so critical with Timbre and Texture and generally speaking of the high level of gear represented on this thread It ends up being a hair splitting contest.If these aspects of the overall sonics sound correct and pleasing to the individual listener then I say go with what you like.

Now with all that being said,
I will bring up the absolute most important aspect for me and that would be the engagement or emotional connection with the music that I'm getting and feeling.When this connection is high I forget all about the rest of these aspects and get lost in the music and I probably couldn't even tell you if the Di speaker has 7 tweeters or 40.😃

Always remember every form of music is all about Emotion,I'm sure you know this.

I probably will always have some different gear around that at a moments notice I can change and get a slightly different flavor,fun stuff.

Here is a couple links that may help,

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/

https://www.musical-u.com/learn/music-timbre-texture-tone/

I hope any of this has helped,

Kenny.

So, I spoke with Eric at Tekton, and he says that the mini-Ulfs are about 7 days out, 10 days at the max. 

This is a good things being that my loaner speakers sold, and I also sold some radials that I had. 

I'm speakerless! 

I currently have a borrowed First Watt S.I.T push pull version by Mr. Pass himself for the D,I,Y, community which he loves. Pure class A and 40 watts, this is quite a good sounding amplifier with exceptional tone/timbre. Yet in direct comparison with the Frankenstein the SET has more purity and tonal authenticity in my opinion. The presentation is also more emotionally engaging with the SET. Snopro noted the same in his 2 amplifier  comparison. I guess we both hear in a similar fashion.
Charles

Hi David,
I freely acknowledge that tone and timbre are subjective evaluations. There’s no way to measure this parameter. I personally rely on my pretty frequent exposure to live acoustic music heard in venues that don’t use microphones on the performers.

The audio equipment that comes closest to this sound is what I choose.  Non scientific yet very effective for me over the years. Naturally what sounds like correct tone and timbre reproduction to me may not to you or another listener.  No argument there but when all is said and done I trust what I hear.  

No doubt that some would argue that solid state sounds equal or better in regard to tone, I get that,  it's a very individual judgement call. So I can understand Snopro's Frankenstein versus Pass Labs when comparing tonality. You could hear both and give the tonality edge to the Pass Labs.  Simply a matter of perspective.
Charles 

@charles1dad   

Charles,

As always, you are informative and enlightening!  Thanks for the additional clarification.

The 3 dimensional presentation, I believe, is much easier to get agreement on. Having come from tubed systems in the past, I easily get this aspect of tubed amps like the Line Magnetic. However, the same concerns apply with respect to tone and timbre. Any guidance or thoughts in this regard?

@snopro Thanks for sharing your impressions of the Coincident Frankenstein and the Pass XA 30.8. I’ve had the 30.8 in my system for about a month now, so your take on it is especially helpful and relevant to me.

When I hear about tone and timbre, little bells go off, akin to feeling fleeting butterflies in one’s stomach. I have not yet figured out why this is so, but the best I’ve come up with is that tone and timbre are among the most subjectively important aspects of music. Please know that though the previous sentences were triggered by your post this is a genuinely general reaction of mine and I’ve pondered about asking the same when similar topics have come up in the past.

Does this make sense? Perhaps you and others can elaborate? Thank you very much.

baranyi, yes I tried the ones teajay recommended and others. Improved the sound but still didn't mesh in my setup 

rja,

"Long thread, let me see if I have this all straight.
1. Tekton - Double Impact $3000
2. Tekton - Double Impact + upgrade package $3300
3. Tekton - Double Impact SE $6000 not yet available
Please correct list if not accurate.
Any idea of SE release date"

Yes this is correct pricing,

The SE version is going to be dealer only,I believe,and you might call Mike Kay owner of Audio archon and see when he will have a pair available for demo.

Kenny.

joe,

Very informative assessment of 2 very fine amplifiers and Thank's for taking the time and posting this.I'm similar I like having a nice tube set but I also enjoy my first watts for a different flavor.

Kenny.

Snopro, I was wondering if you rolled tubes in the MZ2s? Using vintage NOS tubes make a huge difference in this piece. A number of us are using the Tungsol black glass round plates and Teajay and me are using Brimar 6060's which are just gorgeous in the midrange. I had a Supratek Chenin a number of years ago and enjoyed it for a few years. In my rig at the time it had great tone but I found the imaging a bit lacking. I was tempted to try Mick's more expensive offerings but never did. I agree with the rest of the group that there are no wrong answers in what sounds best to your ears. As an aside, I heard the Horning speakers at High Water Sound's room at Axpona 2 years ago and they were lovely.  It was one of the few rooms at the show that actually did music instead of hi-fi.  I am quite sure that they must be amazing in your system. Happy Labor Day to everyone. 

Long thread, let me see if I have this all strait.
1. Tekton - Double Impact $3000
2. Tekton - Double Impact + upgrade package $3300
3. Tekton - Double Impact SE $6000 not yet available
Please correct list if not accurate.
Any idea of SE release date?
Thanks

David,
I described both the Line Magnetic and the Pass Labs as being regarded as excellent amplifiers. Some speakers by design are meant to be used with amplifiers with low output impedance and consequently higher damping factor for sufficient woofer control. This scenario would favor the Pass Labs transistors.

The admirable beauty of the Double Impacts is a variety of different àmplifier types can be used with success. I’d expect the Pass Labs to excel in the region of "tighter" bass control as this is a strength of good solid state amplifiers. I’d expect the Line Magnetic SET to have a edge in tone, timbre and 3 dimensional presentation.

As Snopro pointed out in his 2 amplifier comparison (SET versus solid state) there is overlapping sonic qualities between the two as well as inevitable distinct advantages or strengths of each individually. I can understand why Snopro has kept both superb amplifiers. It gets tricky if you can only have one, then personal taste rules the day.
Charles

Thanks everyone for your kind words and being civil about different opinions!
Charles, you are to kind and seem like a true gentleman. Your insights are highly regarded on this forum, my friend.

Here's my take between the amps, IMS.

The Franks are all about tone, texture, and timbre. They are wonderfully open and very natural sounding (organic) with nice extension and dynamics. No soft, syrupy, highly colored sound here. Very powerful sounding for only 8 watts. Excellent with Jazz, (about 80% of my listening) vocals, and acoustic music. Very good with just about everything else. They are wonderful amps especially with good 300b tubes. My favorite are Takatsuki TA-300b's very refined and well balanced. Just a wonderful amp!

The Pass XA-30.8 is a brute in silk gloves. They are 30 watts of pure class A, but really are rated very conservatively. It weights about 85lbs.
The Pass goes lower and is more dynamic. The soundstage actually is a little bigger with very nice layering and separation. Its not as open and emotionally engaging as the Franks, but comes pretty close. That is high praise for it being a SS amp. Highly recommended for anyone who doesn't want the hassle with tubes. My speakers have 16 woofers altogether and the Pass really take control of those woofers, which the Frank's can't quite do. They are very smooth and grainless. If you enjoy rock, pop, and amplified music they do that very well. it also sounds wonderful with Jazz, vocals, and acoustic music just not as good the Franks.

It's nice to be able to enjoy both and I very much do, my 2 cents.

Joe   

@snopro   Thank you so much for your honest feedback on the MZ2S' performance for you. It's very helpful and I for one am glad you posted in the face of very strong support for this preamp in this thread. 

@porscheracer  Any finalization on the preamp choice, now that you've received a number of suggestions?

@333jeffery  Thanks for posting the video. The clarity is so much better with this one and the sound as well. Those Carver (?) amps  look sweet...are you still using them or have the BHKs taken over? 

Look forward to hearing how the Allnic and BHK preamps compare!

@charles1dad 

Charles, Thank you for the explanation and specifics.

How would you predict the sonic outcomes (in differences) based on the 5 design differences you list?

Thanks.