Tekton Double Impacts

@333jeffery:  If you are amenable to it, can you post some pics over on your system page? I'm also curious of the scale with respect to the rest of the system. I wish Agon made it possible and easy to post photos within the forums.

Jeffery, Do the Ulfs give up much sensitivity compared to the DIs? I'm happy the dynamically alive parameter seems to be a feature on all the new Tekton designs. Once the Ulfs break in, please continue to post your impressions.

Thanks for nothing jeffrey, now I'm going to have to start saving up for the Ulfberhts! I had a feeling they were going to be really special. If they provide an additional 20% more than the DI's that's saying A LOT! Please keep us updated as they break in. I'm quite sure the bass will improve along with the blending of all of the drivers. 

Vitop, the common misconception about these tweeter arrays is that the number of tweeters will muddle the sound. That might happen if the tweeters were all actually providing the highs, but in reality only the center tweeter does while the six circling it produce high midrange. Teajay gave a great explanation of this a couple of pages ago. Eric really thought outside of the box here. I think your concerns will be unfounded when you get your mini Ulfberhts. I'm really looking forward to your impressions when you get them, they could be a great alternative to those like me that will find it difficult coming up with $12k. 

mac --

Actually I remember that article from Terry. I know that the center is the only true tweeter, but I guess I still call it a tweeter array. The gist of what I was wondering is that if the 3 array configuration has more clarity than the DI 7 tweeter array, then would the Ulf 15 tweeter array have even less clarity?

It surprises me that Brilliance has more clarity than the DI. I thought the Di has excellent clarity.

Hello all,

Wow,so nice to read about all the new Tekton Goodness.
I know I'm perfectly happy with my DI's no need to change them for quite awhile.

Best,

Kenny.

vitop
I suspect clarity can actually improve with a properly executed large tweeter array.  The end result of a large diameter tweeter  array is controlled dispersion which can increase direct sound and decrease reflected sound. Far less distortion as well.  It's like a really large set of headphones. I find when direct sound increases so does clarity and detail.
Perhaps the perceived increased clarity of the Brilliance has more to do with the voicing/drivers/crossover of that model.

That makes sense vitop. The Brilliance use Seas drivers I believe instead of the Emminence drivers on the DI's. Might that lead to more clarity? I don't imagine the Brilliance are a lot more clear than the DI's as I find the DI's to be exceedingly clear. The PMD line might be a whole different story though as Eric is using the best drivers, crossovers, capacitors and wire possible for his to achieve his goals. As jeffrey has alluded to, the Ulfberts take realism and dynamics to a whole new level. As much as I love my DI's I'm going to do my best to get the Ulfberhts or mini Ulfberhts.

Vitop, The Brilliance has a much smaller midrange, maybe lighter/faster than the larger pair in the DIs, that may be part of the "more clarity" from the Bs?

I wish I knew. I have not heard the brilliance. I thought the DIs were exceptionally clear so when people said the Brilliance were clearer than the DIs, that just started me thinking.

Eric has not told me what drivers he is using in the Ulfberht Minis. I believe he was toying with 4 8" bass drivers, but I do not know the quality of them (or the other drivers) and if he considers the Mini to be in the PMD line or regular line. I know Eric wanted to make a statement with the minis in the $7500 space so I am assuming he is putting in the good stuff but I honestly do not know.

I can't believe that all you Tekton owners would let one persons opinion up set you so much.
Don't worry be happy.

I'm quite sure your mini Ulfberhts will be using the PMD components vitop. It's going to be a great sounding speaker I'm sure. Can't wait to hear your impressions of it. It reminds me of when I ordered my DI's, I had a vague idea of what they were but just trusted Eric. After he built them he sent me pics and I was like "Holy #€£!". Please share with us any details as you get them. Thanks

i didn't realize any of us were upset, just throwing around ideas as to why the Brilliance might have a bit more clarity than the DI's. Eric's designs are fun trying to figure out.

When ordering my DI's Eric mentioned the Brilliance to me but knowing my propensity for more dynamic speakers he steered me towards the DI's. I believe he said the difference between the DI's and Brilliance is similar to the difference between the Pendragons and Seas Pendragons. The Seas being more refined but not as dynamic. 

 We are happy.

Aol:

I am guessing that maybe I am the one you might have thought was upset, but Mac is right on. I am not upset at all. Just throwing ideas around as he says. I completely trust Eric. The man knows what he is doing and I feel like he is taking care of me. I guess I could just pick up the phone and ask him about the 3 speaker array vs the 7 speaker array in terms of differences, dynamics and clarity but hell.... I have questions all the time and if I call him every time I wonder about something I’d never leave him alone.
The end of this week will be the two week mark out of the four weeks he said it would take so I was going to call him and see if he was still on schedule and I’ll probably ask him. But I’m not worried about it.

By the way....

I did speak to Eric briefly last week about something interesting. I honestly almost pulled the trigger, but I am downsizing and selling off my stereo stuff and only going to use my HT setup for both TV and music.

I was looking at his complete speaker line and came across the OB Sigma speaker. Read the stuff Eric was saying on this page. He brought the price down from $3000 a pair to $1750 because he is upset that he is not selling more of such a fine speaker. So I went off and read a review on them. Surprise..... another Tekton speaker with a great review.  

I thought it was a hell of a deal and asked Eric about it. He told me it was pretty much a class A amplifier music speaker rather than a HT speaker. I actually thought about keeping a 2 channel system just because of these speakers, but between how much money the HT system is costing me and the fact that I am getting closer to retirement and will be downsizing, having room for both a HT system and a 2 channel system in a smaller house just was not going to work.
But honestly guys, this is something that I hope someone will jump on so I can live vicariously through you!

@vitop: Terry reviewed the Sigmas and still speaks highly of them. Perhaps he can add something to convince you! :)

I considered them as surrounds for what was supposed to be a HT system, but the DIs were so amazing, all my funds got re-directed to 2ch.

The Ulf's have no problem with clarity. Going through some of my favorite recordings on them, I have been able to pick out details that were not clear on the DI's. My dad came over and tried some of his classical piano cd's on them. We were able to identify the makes of the pianos being used just by their tone on the Ulf's. In fact, the differences between the various pianos was made very obvious by the Ulf's. I had never noticed this before.

Wow... Good stuff Jeffrey. Eric really spoke highly of the Ulfs. Good to hear your comments.

Craig, the soundstage of the Ulf's is quite different from the DI's. It's very forward, almost "in your face" on some recordings. Also, the Ulf's do not need to be placed far from the rear walls to sound good. Just a few inches is enough for the Ulf's, while the DI's need a fair amount of clearance to open up. However, listening height is critical with the Ulf's. Your ears must be centered with the arrays for maximum effect.

To speed up the burn in process, I have been playing pipe organ music through the Ulf's for several hours now. It's quite a treat as they are easily able to create concert hall levels of volume. The bass from the organs is scary good on the Ulf's.

Sounds like you've got a real winner on your hands Jeffrey. With time the soundstage might open up and become more recessed. Not that it needs to as from your descriptions they must sound amazing, but I know both my Tektons seemed to open up more with time. Your drivers and caps might take longer than the regular Tekton components to break in. Do you happen to know what caps he used in Ulfberhts? Your description of their realism in tone is very intriguing. How can one not love a speaker that makes vocals and instruments sound real? Especially piano, that's one of the most difficult sounds to properly duplicate and it sounds like the Ulfberhts nailed it right out of the box.  Very impressive. Thanks again for sharing. 

Mac, I don't know what caps are used in the Ulf's, only that they are an upgrade from the stock ones used on other Tekton speakers. Something to keep in mind: I am using some powerful amps in my setup, greater than 300 watts/channel. So, I have no idea what the Ulf's would sound like with a low power amp. That might be an important bit of info for folks running the LTA amps and considering the Ulfberhts.

@333jeffery :  did you decide on the BHK 300 over the Carver 350?

David, I picked the BHK's over the Carvers for now, but I will swap the Carvers back in after a while just to compare a pure-tube amp over the solid-states. The BHK's offer lots of dynamics and speed, which suits the Ulf's just fine. Both are fine amps, and I could be happy with either one.

Craig my listening room is fairly large, with 10 foot ceilings. It works okay for me, but in a smaller room the Ulf's huge size could easily overwhelm you. My listening chair is 10 feet from the speakers, and some recordings sound like they are right on top of me. I don't mind this, but in a smaller space it would be too much. If Eric comes out with the mini version of the Ulf's, that would be a better bet for most folks.

You're going the opposite route that I am, Jeffrey. I'm driving my DI's with the one watt LTA MZ2 and I'm still amazed by the sound I'm getting. The BK's with the Ulfberhts could bring the house down! No wonder the drum shots startled you out of your seat. I'll probably add an amp to my system down the road but just a small SET amp or vintage tube amp. For a crazy dynamic system I'll move the DI's to my SS theater system to rock out to. I'd recommend that you try a small tube amp with your Ulfberhts but from the sounds of it you're good. Realistic piano.....doesn't get much better than that. 

We were able to identify the makes of the pianos being used just by their tone on the Ulf's.

@333jeffery,
Seriously? A bit too much for any loudspeaker to reveal, unless you already know which one was used in that recording. Are you saying that just by playing any musical recording you would be able to figure out the make of the piano in that song? I am finding that a bit hard to digest. Maybe I did not correctly interpret what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?

Hello gentlemen,

Have a field report on my experiences with two great SET amplifiers driving the DI's.  However, I would want to comment on driving the Ulfbertht speaker with either the BK or Carver amplifiers.  I preface this with that in our hobby there is no right or wrong, it's personal taste and how we experience the illusion of how a total system produces music.  Because the DI's are true conduits, and I'm sure the Ulifbertht's are too, I can't imagine that I would enjoy either of Eric's speakers being driven by the above mentioned amplifiers.  I try never to speak in disrespect or ignorance about any product or someone's opinion.  I have reviewed the Carver amplifier and found it at best to be just average in its performance, another OK sounding tube based amp.  I have spent hours listening to the BK amplifier and again thought it was OK, but nothing special at all.  Yes, it has received rave professional reviews, but compared to other SS amplifiers such as Accuphase or Pass Labs, which I have used to drive the DI's, it sounded to me like scores of "HIFI" sounding SS amps meaning relatively grainless, but somewhat sterile in tonality and color.

On to my field report.

I now have spent hours with both the Triode Lab SET 2A3s-EVO single chassis amplifier and the Canary Audio M-80 SET 300B mono-block amplifiers.  Each was driven by the Micro-ZOTL and each amplifier was totally tubed with the finest NOS tubes that based on experience give me the musical flavor I'm seeking in my system.  The only tube I had no prior experience with was the 2A3, so after some experimentation with new stock and NOS tubes my favorite turned out to be RCA 40's black plate tubes in the Triode Lab amplifier.

Well, guys which do you like better a Ferrari or a Lamborghini?  Both these amplifiers are reference level performers and if I had very deep pockets I would by both of them for my stable of amplifiers.  The Canary Audio 300B amps are highly detailed, silky smooth, throw a palatial soundstage, and rock on overall dynamics with the best bottom extension/power, more then the SS amps I mentioned above, that I have heard on the DI's so far.  If you love rock and big orchestral types of music, with the finesse of a SET, these mono-blocks would be a dream for you on the DI's.  My hunch is that because these amps have very big power supplies and the quality of their in-house designed and hand built transformers is excellent they sound much more powerful then you would expect for a 8 watt amplifier.

The Triode Lab SET 2A3s-EVO, like the Canary Audio is beautifully built with the finest of transformers and internal parts, takes the resolution, speed/dynamics, and 3D imaging of the Micro-ZOTL and adds on amazing "meat on the bones" image density, the most beautiful color/tonality/timbres to all instruments and presents the music in an effortless way that just floats out of the DI's.  This amplifier is not dark or overly "romantic", but has a relaxing overall presentation that draws you into the music in an emotional way.  It will do "big" music, however it really shines on vocals and acoustic instruments.  95% of my listening is Jazz recorded on analog tape, therefore this amp tickles my musical heart.  

Both of these SET amplifiers are truly beautiful music makers.  Paired with the Micro-ZOTL each drives the DI's,  I should be getting shortly the Ulfbertht's for review/my hunch is that each will drive this speaker with abomb, to a level that any music lover would find enchanting indeed.  Which do you like better silk or velvet?  They are both wonderful materials, however which you find more pleasing to touch? Well, these amplifiers offer different textures/flavors, easily drive the DI's, so it comes down to personal taste and matching the synergy with your preamplifier and source.

 

Teajay, what preamp did you use with the Carvers and BHK's? In my system, neither amp really came alive until I paired it with an excellent preamp. They hardly sound sterile in my setup.

Milpai, if you are a pianist, you definitely can tell a piano's make by it's tone. A Steinway does not sound like a Bosendorfer, for example. It takes a really good speaker to reveal this, though, which the Ulf's did.

Hi Jeffrey,

The Carver amps were driven by the Concert Fidelity tube based reference, a great sounding piece, and the BHK's were driven by two excellent SS preamps and a very high level Purity tube based preamp.  I don't know what you mean by "alive".  If you mean overall macro-dynamics, both amps are OK in that area.  They both fall short in color/tonality and in image palpability.  When I reviewed the Carver amps the SS Pass Labs had more liquidity and better air around individual players then the tube based Carvers.  I really found nothing special about the BHK amplifier, it was quite run of the mill sounding compared to most SS amps on todays market.  Neither was my cup of sonic tea.  I could also speculate that some of the "the image was right on top of me" is not the room or the speakers, but  the nature of the amplifier.  Because you can use very low powered SET amps because of the nature of Eric's speakers have you ever tried any of these types of amplifiers?  The most unpleasant I have heard the DI's sound as been when they are driven by high power SS amps, some what in your face PA system type of presentation.  So easy to drive, but total conduits which expose any short coming in the upstream gear.  They sounded great with excellent SS amps like Accuphase and Pass Labs XA-60.8 which sound much different then your BHK's.  

Terry:

I have a question but it concerns multi-channel SS amps. I know you do some of that but a lot of what you do is 2 channel. I was going to go with a NAD M27 amp for my HT. Have you run across any multi-channel amps that fall into the category of the Tektons in the sense of comparing to much higher priced equipment for a lower price?
Any other recommendations other than the M27?

Thanks

Hi vitop,

I wish I could be helpful, however I have never had a multi-channel amplifier in any of my systems which are two channel based not HT.  Hopefully, someone else with that knowledge/experience on this thread could answer your question.

Teajay, 
As someone who has had the good fortune to hear many varieties of power amplifiers over the years I must compliment you on your comments above.   In all candor  we probably hear in a very similar manner just as we have quite similar taste in music. 

Your description of the sound of the amplifiers you've listened to driving the Double Impacts is exceptionally insightful.  It really does seem to me that given the design and easy drive nature of these speakers that high quality SET would be an ideal match. For example my knowledge of the Canary amplifier would suggest the superb results that your listening impressions confirm. 

I appreciate your very respectful tone toward Jeffrey and his preferred amplifiers.  There's absolutely no doubt that we as individuals hear things differently and must choose what we find most suitable for ourselves.  Thankfully the Double Impacts allow this flexibility of choice. 

Triode Labs 2A3 and Canary 300b SET amplifiers no doubt sound as fantastic as you describe.  This continues to be a very informative and very friendly thread. 
Charles 

Thanks Terry. I appreciate that.

Thanks Teajay, just the kind of input I needed. While it sounds like one couldn't go wrong with either amp the 2A3 sounds like my cup of tea.

Hi Mac, 
You're probably aware of this point but I'll state it anyway 😊. 
If you go with the Triode Labs amplifier get the best output transformer option that you can comfortably afford. They offer very nice choices for this critical part.
Charles 

@333jeffery:  Thank you for providing your impressions and experience with the Ulfberths in your room and system. That is very helpful and I believe valuable to all of us here on this thread...whether we decide to upgrade or not.

Your time with your Dad was a wonderful highlight for me, especially on the eve of Father's Day. I can only imagine the way both of you enjoyed that time together and enjoyed some exceptional musical goodness from your system and the new Ulfberths.

Thanks David, I appreciate that. I grew up listening to my dad playing the piano. Every morning as I would get ready for school, I could hear my dad banging away at the keys, usually something by Grieg or Czerny. While I am more of a rock and jazz fan myself, I can appreciate his passion for classical music. His trained ears helped pick out the very first audio equipment that I ever bought.

As for upgrading, I think most folks here would be quite content with the Double Impacts. The Ulfberhts are reference-grade speakers designed to wring every last bit of musical information from a recording. You do not really need that level of performance to enjoy your music.  All that said, I wouldn't give'em up!

Hey Charles,

If I go that route I'll get the 2A3S FFX with Hashimoto/Sansui transformers. If I can afford them, the Frank's will be in consideration also. I'm also going to visit Andy at Vintage Tube Services in Grand Rapids to check out some vintage tube amps. Let the fun begin!

Charles have you ever listed to the Canary M320 300B integrated; if so please offer your impressions?

Mac,

I don't know if you have considered the Zotl 10 for a Amp choice.
I have a good friend in Cali that has one but he is waiting on a MZ2 to pair with it,he is a guy that I trust his ears and we like a lot of the same things.You may have never owned a dht set tube amp before and you certainly can't go wrong with the top quality ones that have been mentioned.

I have one 300b set amp left in my collection of gear so I'm leaning towards the Zotl 10 myself.One thing for sure the DI's aren't going to need much pwr,8 to 10 quality watts is huge at least for me.

Best of luck to you,

Kenny.

Hello facten,
No I haven’t. I know several people whose hearing and listening impressions are simply rock solid and they’ve told me that the Canary 300b amplifer offerings are something special. Right in line with what Terry wrote earlier, "music makers" as opposed to "hifi". I understand his point.
Charles

Yes Kenny, the ZOTL 10.....especially the new, upcoming ZOTL 10 with a new upgraded power supply......was my choice until teajay's experimentation with amps. The LTA MZ2 driving the DI's with its one watt is fantastic but as Teajay mentions, the SET amps add more texture to the sound or meat on the bones and that's what I'm looking to add. I get plenty of volume, bass and dynamics using just the MZ2, adding the ZOTL 10 would give me more of the same. According to Teajay the MZ2 alone sounds better than the MZ2 with the ZOTL 40 on the DI's. I can't verify that but can verify that the MZ2 drives the DI's amazingly well. 

Mac,

I can relate to all you have said,and the direction you are going to get a quality dht set amp,that will give you what you are looking for in spades.Now the hard part begins finding the one for you amongst all the very good choices and also that meet your budget.

Yes the MZ2 is very good on it's own driving my DI's for about 85% of the music I listen too,but for full orchestra and the occasional classic rock played loud definitely needs a little more headroom.

I like mullard 12at7's from the 50's and 1940's slyvania vt231's the best so far for me,the 1940's tung sol round plates would be my 2nd pick.You definitely can't go wrong with the wonderful nos tubes that's for sure.I did also try new production tung sol and Sophia 6sn7's that I have used in other preamps with fair to good results but they both sounded terrible in the MZ2.They both were noisy and the tone shifted to the cool side which I did'nt like at all.

I'm going to use my MZ2 by itself for a wk or 2 and then pair it with a couple of amps and see which I like best.

Best,

Kenny.

Kenny,

youre totally correct regarding the limitations of the MZ. I rarely listen to classic rock and when I do I do so on my SS system. 

Im with you on using great NOS tubes with the MZ. I'm currently using the TungSol round plates and 40's Mullard 12AT7's and have a pair of 40's Sylvania 12SN7's on the way. Im loving my current sound and if the Sylvania's improve it further......better yet!

Thanks for the response Charles 

The longer this thread goes, the more unworthy I feel to own the DIs with my crummy signal path and lousy taste in music. My 28 year old daughter was here all weekend and continues to enjoy the DIs. We enjoyed a few hours listening and I'm pretty sure the closest to Classical or Jazz we got was "Yes". Fun to have the family enjoy your hobby with you.

Bullitt you are one lucky dude...you got a 'Yes' from  a woman and not one but two. Celebrate! : )

Bullitt,

Enjoy the gear you have,We are just picky fussy audiophiles that like specific music.

Play some moody blues and steely dan and you would be closer to what I like the most.

Kenny.

david_ten I can't leave well enough alone. Told my daughter I was upgrading to the SE version and she said they BETTER sound as good as these! I assured her she would again get an A/B audition and I could return either set. No pressure!

Bullitt.... Careful, she may be angling for a pair of DIs  : )