@cal3713 : Why are you "scared a bit by Coincident discontinuing the remote version." ? Thanks.
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I would love to hear about the comparison between the coincident pre and the M-ZOTL... especially on Charles' side since I have Coincident speakers and Franks myself (copycat). I currently run my DAC directly into the amps but think regularly about adding an active pre. Unfortunately I absolutely need a remote (it seems odd to buy a pre and then continue to use the DAC's volume control) and am scared a bit by Concident discontinuing the remote version. So many options once I leave the Coincident universe though. It's intimidating. Please keep us updated. |
Hi Guys,
I have been getting scores of Emails regarding which is the "BEST" combination of these three possibilities: 1) the Micro-ZOTL by its self 2) the Micro-ZOTL/ZOTL-40 amp 3) the Micro-ZOTL/2A3 amp to drive the DI's.
All sound terrific, all though slightly different, and factors such as how loud you listen to get to the sweet spot in your system, types of music, and what DB levels are needed for your acoustic space would decide which one you would prefer.
Right now I'm getting the total signature of the Micro-ZOTL plus the colors/3D imaging of the 2A3 tubes which I find enchanting on all acoustic jazz music, which I mostly listen to the great majority of the time.
All three combo's are great, it's your personal taste to reach your decision.
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@charles1dad : Thanks. Good to get a strong second opinion from you on Backert Labs. I will look into the Dan Sachs Preamp.
Any others on Preamp choices?
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Hi Teajay,
Well I must confess, no tattoos. However I do have large photographs of Bird, Dizzy, Miles and Monk on the walls of my listening room 😂😂
I understand the analogy you used to describe your 2 different audio systen’s character, I know just what you mean. I can imagine how Morgan’s trumpet and Lester’s tenor must sound with your current system.
Charles |
Hey Charles,
Not only is fair to claim both of us are Jazz lovers I have Lee Morgan and Lester Young tattoos on my arms to prove it!
All the gear that you mention is still in-house in my smaller up-stairs system. It's a great solid state system, however as we both know it does not sound like a great tube based system. As one of my listening guests said ,"your up stair's system sounds like great HiFi, your down stairs system sounds like great music".
I want to share I'm not a great fan of KT-88-120-150 based amplifiers because they sound "solid state-ish" to me. I also find any gear ( Audio Research, BAT) that uses the Russian 30 super tube in its design quite unpleasant to my ears.
Now, El-34's, 300B's, 211's, 2A3's, 845 based amps SET or Push Pull that sounds like music to me, with the right line-stage, like the LTA's Micro-ZOTL which is still the best preamp I have ever heard in how uniquely deals with space and macro-dynamics, now we have music to my ears/personal taste. I have never been a fan of horn designs and have reviewed single driver designs, which have a beautiful purity but lack extended highs/lows that can be easily driven with a few watts. Now, that I'm using the DI's I can play with all these great tube low watt amplifiers, without any drawbacks at all.
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Mac, Thanks I appreciate that offer. My speakers are the Coincident Total Eclipse II. These were a simpler design than the Total Victory II and probable easier to drive. Charles |
So true Charles, it's great to have so many great available choices. Like Corelli, I admire that you have found the system that suits you and you've been enjoying it all these years. While I used to enjoy trying out different components I'm tired of doing so and hope to be in your situation very soon. Since you were so kind in offering to allow me to hear your Frank's with my DI's I'll return the favor and offer to bring my MZ2 over to try with your Frank's and Total Victorys ( is that what you have?). What tubes are using in your Frank's? I love NOS tubes but other than the almost unobtainable and uber expensive WE 300B I don't think there are many NOS 300B options.
I was all set to go with the Frank's before hearing about the ZOTL 40 and now I've come full circle and am back to the Frank's. I really can't afford the Line Stage along with the Frank's this year, so the MZ2 with the Frank's is a great option. I like going with hand made in North America products even though I realize they are making some very good products in China. Dealing directly with the likes of Israel, Mark and Eric ( Coincident, LTA and Tekton) very much appeals to me also.
Also, like Corelli, I could be very happy for a long time with my current system. I get so much musical enjoyment from it that it's hard to believe it could be improved upon but from speaking with others that went from Decware to LTA I know I'm in for a dramatic improvement to my system with the MZ2 and Frank's........or ZOTL 40.
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Corelli, I believe that you, Mac and others will likely settle down for the long term once you all square things up based around the DI. When you achieve the sound/music reproduction you really desire you’ll lose the urge to constantly want to change your system.
That’s why I placed so much emphasis on the all crucial emotional involvement factor-musical connection aspect. Once you obtain that you’ll be very content and happy. Choose components that go straight to your heart and music loving soul. Charles |
Mac, My music listening is probably 80 to 85% acoustic jazz with bands/combos of various sizes so we have similar taste. Teajay has these preferences as well so his comments carry considerable weight and I relate to them.
It just seems that based on his listening nearly any good quality built SET is going to really shine with the DI. Lower power tube push pull tubes would also be terrific choices, as it seems the DI takes advantage of quality power and doesn't demand high current/watts in order to sound good.
Having said that I wonder how well Teajay's big Pass Labs mono blocks were with the DI, my guess is they were fine as well. Charles |
Charles, I must say I admire how you followed your ears and put together a system that keeps you very happy--and have stuck with it!! I look in disbelief at how some on Audiogon have gone through incredible amounts of equipment in a never ending quest.
If I died today listening to my DI's driven by my Marantz Reference gear (as I am now-Handel Organ Concerto/Harmonia Mundi SACD) I would feel lucky to have enjoyed such great music reproduction in my home.
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy possibilities. This site makes it fun to gather information and learn from others experiences.
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Mac, I understand your situation, you have numerous amplifier choices and all are good! I'm curious to hear the MZ2 with the Frankenstein. I've reached a point where I believe all the amplifiers mentioned the past few days in this thread would be truly excellent with your DI speakers, just pick a flavor. Charles |
mac, it should be fairly easy to bypass the volume control. How are you with a soldering iron?? I'm like you and don't even care for switches I don't need in the circuit.
Might not want to order it without the volume control--not that you would ever sell it! :)
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Teajay,
Thanks for once again sharing your experiences with us. Talking to Mark at LTA he said turning the MZ2 volume all the way up is the same as removing it. I'll see if he can make mine without the volume control as I use the volume control on my DAC. I already ordered some NOS 40's RCA 12sn7's and 12at7's for the MZ2.
Im still up in the air on an amp. ZOTL 10 or 40? A 2A3 SET? A 300B SET? Think I'll enjoy just using the MZ2 alone for a while before committing to an amp. Acoustic jazz is what I mostly listen to, so it should suffice. I'd like to end this audio carousel I've been on and settle down to one last system. Quit laughing!!!! :)
Charles,
I am currently leaning towards the Frank's. 300B SET monoblocks for about the same price as the ZOTL 40. Combing the magic of the MZ2 with the "meat and bones" of a 300B SET could be special. I can always try the Coincident Line Stage down the road to see how it compares with the MZ2 as there might be a special synergy between the LS and Frank's. |
David, Considering the functionality you need, I believe the Backert would suit you fine. Reviews and owner feedback comments suggest it is really quite fine sounding yet offers flexibility. . It may be hard to beat when all factors are considered. Teajay says it sounds "great" if not quite the equal of the LTA ZOTL but that's out of the picture for you. In your desired price range it's likely very hard to do better. Oh one more option, people talk about the Don Sachs 6SN7 preamp in glowing terms. Charles |
Options on choices for a stand alone 2ch Preamp / linestage???
This is in service of the Double Impacts in 2ch and HT mode. Plus some additional component integration. Budget is 5.5K tops, but I very much prefer that the purchase comes to no more than 3K. My struggle with the choice has to do with functionality vs. pure 2ch sound quality performance.
I'd love to go the LTA route, especially based on Terry's and others' experiences but for now it is too limited in application, for my needs.
The Coincident Statement Linestage is a small step up functionally, and is the bare minimum I can accept. Another option with similar functionality is Mastersound.
The Backert Labs Preamp (the Rhumba 1.2) brings another step up in function, with XLR in/out and bypass.
On the upper end of my functional scale is the Wyred4Sound STP-SE. A tubed option, that offers a similar level of function, is Accustic Arts. Both, I believe, are fully balanced designs.
I realize that many posting in this thread lean towards tubes, which is great because having a tubed preamp is preferable... my chain is all solid state at present; However, I am open to a solid state preamp, as evidenced by the W4S.
I'm sure there are many other very good options. Hope you are able to help. Thanks in advance.
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Teajay, It's fair to say that we are both passionate listeners of "straight ahead" acoustic jazz (both live venue and recordings). Would it be accurate to say you're enjoying this current system more than your previous reference system (Pass Labs amps, Concert Fidelity preamp and Lawrence Audio Cello? Just curious. Charles |
Teajay,
I'm not at all surprised that removing an average quality volume control out of the signal path made such a difference. Lesser volume control quality is a known bottleneck in many components .It's inspiring to know you're enjoying such high caliber sound from these very accessible audio components. SET amplifiers can just sound superb if mated to the right speaker load. Charles |
Some are against him because he gave a free pair of speakers to a man he admired, Glenn Beck .
I don't care for him either, but If I knew the hero's of every one I ever bought from I'd be nude, walking everywhere and not listening to anything not made in Scandinavia . |
Hey guys,
Wanted to share after many hours of fun listening, that now my favorite combo driving the Dl's is the LTA Micro-ZOTL with a SET 2A3 amplifier offering 3.5 watts at 4 ohms.
Now get this! This SET 2A3 retails for only $1,200.00! It's the Opera Consonance SET headphone/integrated amplifier. My dear friend Mike Kay (CEO of Audio Archon) who by trade is a professional engineer performed surgery to remove totally out of the circuit the inexpensive volume control so the Micro-Zotl was directly driving the amplifier section. It was quite good before surgery, but now it kills it! The purity/transparency and macro-dynamics have been unleashed. I experience this combo as retaining the sheer power/dynamics, spatial qualities, and purity of the Micro-ZOTL used as an integrated amplifier, plus the color/timbres, and "meat on the bones" three-dimensional imaging that a 2A3 tube brings to the mix. I had no problem with volume levels and dynamics with the Micro-ZOTL as a stand alone amplifier as I shared before, however you can hear what the extra 3 watts delivers when the music calls for it.
I scored this "little gem" from Quest For Sound. If they have anymore in stock I would go for it. Remember, to get what I'm hearing now you will have to modify it yourself or pay the small charge to remove the volume control out of the circuit.
My final experiment will be with 10 watt 300b mono-blocks that I will be getting hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Right now I'm in "sonic heaven" with this combo. Just think, world class performance with a pair of 3K speakers, that you can drive with anything, and electronics that retail for less then 3k! The NOS tubes I use actually come close to the price of one of the pieces! By the way I'm using a pair of NOS RCA 2A3 tubes and one NOS RCA 5751 in the Opera amplifier |
Teajay, This is why I never refer to any audio product as being the "best". There are too many situational variables and listener preference issues involved. One of the strengths of the Coincident Statement (CSL) is tone and timbre honesty and emotional liveliness. However the LTA ZOTL could be every bit as good or better. We as music lovers have superb choices available in the current market.
It's impossible to hear and own every possible excellent sounding component out there. If I were starting today to build a top tier but affordable audio system,Tekton Double Impact, LTA and Line Magnetic would without question be of high interest to seek out and hear. Coincident has served me in a most wonderful manner yet I recognize there are other audio options every bit as worthy. Charles |
Hi Mofojo,
Yes, such as Pass Labs XA-60.8 mono-blocks/Accuphase-450 and it brought its special magic to these SS amplifiers. When I was taking it around for people to hear it in their systems there were both tubed and SS based, the owners all agreed that it was superlative and better then their pre-amps, regardless of price. I believe it sounds very different, more like real music, because of David Berning's ZOTL design, and it brings this to any system its placed in.
I have reviewed both Backert Labs pieces and have listened to the Coincident SLS, all three are great performers. However, they don't do color, space, and dynamics the way the LTA does.
I would be very interested in what Charlies, because of respect for his ears, take would be on the comparing his SLS with the Micro-ZOTL in his system |
David, I suspect that the remote version is excellent and probably just a trace less transparent than the non remote version, however Israel is a perfectionist and that "trace" would bother him.
Backert Labs and of course the LTA ZOTL preamp are both considered to be excellent and are less expensive than the Coincident. Only way to really know is to hear all 3 directly, but easier said than done. For certain there are fabulous choices available. Charles |
Teajay,
Have you tried the MicroZotl as a preamp feeding a SS amp? Specifically a high current high wattage one like the Odyssey Stratos Extreme I am powering my DIs with? |
Hello Charles, Thank you. That's quite an endorsement!
Yes, the limited functionality is a concern. They introduced a RC version with a single volume pot, briefly. There is one on offer here at Agon. But Israel feels this version detracted slightly from his goal of sound quality. Thoughts?
Backert Labs is also a strong contender, much less on the outlay, and with some additional functionality.
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Hello David,
I was one of the first buyers of the Coincident Statement Line Stage when it was introduced in 2009. It was fantastic from day 1 and my admiration has only grown over the years of ownership. Keep in mind that it is a minimalist design ( only 2 inputs and no remote control). In terms of sound quality it’s about as natural, open and resolved/transparent as you’ll likely find. Supremely emotionally-musically engaging. After living with it for nearly 8 years, it is my final preamplifier. I feel the same about its sibling the Frankenstein MK II SET amplifier.
Charles |
@charles1dad and others who may own or have owned Coincident gear...
thoughts on their Statement Linestage?
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@corelli: thanks for your thoughts on Decware. Like I mentioned earlier, I was very impressed with the Line Magnetic components used during a long demo of the Devore O/96s.
I've personally owned Melody and it beat BAT and ARC products I owned, especially the BAT, and at a three to four times factor less in price. I still remember the 2A3 amp very fondly.
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Corelli, Check out the Steve Hoffman.com site. There's a 9 page thread about the LM 508ia and includes comparisons to the 219 ia and the 518ia from owners. Charles |
Charles, again thanks for the further info/advice. I'll be sure to check out Audio shark.
Walter, your experience will probably parallel ours in that the DI's are good out of the box and rapidly improve. I did not find these took nearly the time of my VSA VR-33's (those took forever). I'm really looking forward to your comments on your amp/speaker interface.
david_ten, I have read about Decware over the years. I could be way off here but I wonder if the LM gear provides a bit more low end weight and control. It just seems to be a great value and clearly one of the top lines out of China. The Melody AN300b looks like another great choice. Twin 300's in push-pull. Read teajays review. This captured the known attributes of the 300 tube while having impressive extension on both ends all while possessing 3D imaging. Then there's the LTA gear.
The DI's open up a whole new world of lower powered choices I never had with the Magnepans. Yes, this is fun.
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Walter,
I’m not surprised by one word you’ve written. I can’t imagine why the DI and your LM 508ia wouldn’t be a superb pairing. no reason at all. Out of the shipping box today and sounding that good already. Charles |
Yes, there is more discussion of the 508 over at Audio shark, as Charles stated. In fact, some of the folks there actually heard the 508 compared to both the 518 and 219 and posted some very interesting impressions. It is an informative and insightful discussion. I've had mine several months now and don't think I could love it any more. I think Wig loves his just as much, and we have both enjoyed quite a few awesome amps in our systems over the years, for whatever that may be worth to you. The 508 is built like a tank and sounds magical, especially with upgraded tubes. I love the looks of it, too. I would imagine any of those three LM amps would sound fantastic with the Double Impacts, speaking of which--mine arrived today, two days ahead of schedule!
I have them installed now and have been listening for less than an hour, so I will reserve judgment for a bit. I do like what I am hearing so far.--honestly, I am shocked by how good they sound right out of the box. I will need to play around with placement some and get at least 40-50 hours on them before saying too much. When I get to 100 hours, I will put the Ulysses back in and then we will see what's what. This is going to be a LOT of fun. The DI are clearly very impressive speakers. This going to be some tussle between two great sets of speakers!
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@corelli: I don't recall for certain, but was Decware an option you had considered? If it was, any particular reason for choosing Line Magnetics over it?
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corelli,
You might just want to reachout to Jeff Halpern of Tone Imports about the 508; I found him pretty easy to communicte with when I was going about purchasing my 518, as well as with some follow-up correspondence.
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There was a discussion/thread concerning the LM 508ia on Audio shark.com not too long ago. Charles |
Thanks for the info Charles. I was looking at the Tone Imports page where they did not have the 508ia listed. Sounds like another good option to look at.
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Corelli, One further point, the LM 219ia and 508ia both use a 300b as the "driver" tube, thus a DHT driving another DHT (805 and the 845). this can result in a very organic and open transparent sound quality. Again it’s terrific that the DI allows one to take advantage of these types of amplifiers. Charles |
Hi Corelli, The 518ia is a stereo chassis 845 output tubed amp (25 watt per channel). The 508ia uses the 805 as the output tube (45 watt per channel) this is the amp used by Waltersilas on this thread.
There is also the 219ia which is 845 tubed and is a dual mono stereo chassis design. You can google the LM 508ia, there is much praise for this model. Charles |
Charles, did you mean the 518ia?? I can't find a 508 in their line up. I ask because as I mentioned before the 518ia is one integrated on my radar. I have to believe this would be a great match as well. Off the 4 ohm tap it's distortion signature is that of falling even harmonics--hardly any odd order. (see stereophile review) I don't place a lot of faith in specs but this pattern often is quite pleasing.
I think as teajay said it's all what your looking for. That's where it's so helpful to hear from you guys that have actually played with these toys!
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rlphillips
Yes no problem. I would like to check out your Sea Pentdragons as well if you are up for that. I'll send you a PM if I can figure out how to do it and we can set something up. I actually work in Grand Haven. |
mofojo
I live in Grand Haven and have a pair of Seas Pendragons, the matching center channel, and a pair of Lore S' with the matching Seas and Tymphany/Peerless drivers. Could I possibly stop by sometime and audition the DI's?
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Mac,
In addition to the amplifiers already confirmed as excellent matches for the DIs I strongly suspect that Walter's Line Magnetic 508ia will be added to this list. Much fun for sure 😃
Charles |
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the follow up regarding the 300b SET. Concert Fidelity is a first rate company so I can imagine that amplifier sounds excellent driving the Tekton DI.
Mac the only caveat about my Coincident Frankenstein MK II is it's an early version with only 8 and 16 ohm speaker taps. The later versions (past few years) are 4 and 8 ohm taps. Nonetheless if you ever want to try it let me know. My speaker's are a 14 ohm nominal load and sound wonderful on the 16 ohm tap.
Charles |
Teajay,
thanks so so much for all of your listening observations. I'm in the process of choosing new pre amp and amp. I'm settled on the LTA MZ2-S but am up in the air regarding the amp. How did the SET amp compare to the ZOTL 40? The LTA/Berning design has no problem with 4 ohm loads but many small tube amps do. It sounds like you preferred the SET. I'll be looking forward to your 300b results. For now I'll use the MZ2 to drive my DI's. Maybe the 8 watt Coincident Frankensteins will be a good match. I may just have to take you up on your offer to hear the Frank's on my DI's afterall Charles! Im surprised small SET amps work so well with 4 ohm speakers, but it's exciting.
Nitewulf, as teajay stated assuming the AMT tweeter is better than the DI's array is a wrong assumption. They are different sounding. While the AMT's MIGHT have been slightly airier, the DI's are more relaxed and musical to my ears and just as fast and detailed. The DI's are much more dynamic than the Legacys with a larger, more holographic soundstage. While I quickly realized I preferred the DI's to the Legacys it took me a while to realize just how good they are......they really have no right being this good at their price.
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Ok, I just purchased a pair of Signature SEs recently after extensive auditioning. I'm just curious about the Tektons. |
Hi nitewulf,
I believe your assumption regarding a mid-range/high frequency section produced by AMT's would be better than the DI's seven driver array is not valid. My Lawrence Audio Cello loudspeakers use two highly regarded AMT transducers for these frequencies and yet the micro-details and the decays come no where close to Eric's design.
No offense to anyone who owns the Legacy speakers, however the Focus SE's are not on the same level, in my opinion, to the Cello's overall performance and the DI's displaced therm into my second smaller system |
charles1dad -
We have switched over to the Concert Fidelity i300B SET for the last week and hearing fantastic results. So yes, a ~10watt 300b SET amplifier is a great match too!
Happy Listening!
Mike
Audio Archon - dealer
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mac48025, what did the Focus SEs lack in comparison to the DIs? I'd assume the AMT mid/tweeter section would be a lot better than the ring radiator array on the DI?
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"This is fun" no doubt!
I strongly suspect that the 10 watt 300b SET amplifier will be another sucessful match. This is the beauty and essence of having higher sensitivity and easy impedance load speakers. They allow one to take advantage of low powered yet really good sounding Amplifiers that just "make "music.
Teajay you are providing valuable information for many music lovers.
Charles |
Hey corelli,
I do not have the Melody 300B anymore. I have nothing but respect for Melody's products, very well built and they sound great. That particular amp was my reference for about a year in my big system.
So, shortly I hope to have in house a pair of mono-block SET 300B amps (10 watts) to see how they will sound with the DI's. These speakers are great in that you can virtually drive them with anything you want to get the overall sonic signature to match your personal taste in sound.
Right now I have three different, each one in its own right is terrific, ways to drive the DI's: Micro-ZOTL as an amp, the Micro-ZOTL/ZOTL-40amplifier, Micro-ZOTL as a line-stage/SET 2A3 amplifier.
This is Fun! |
