TECHNICS SL1200 MKII.......THE REAL FACTS

@pryso i have spoken to a few people and once that lenco has the bearing and arm changed and ideal plinth made it becomes a formidable table hard to beat at any pricerange

I was referring to the sp that had 78rpm not the sp10s..forget if it was 15 or 25.

The SP-20 chakster referred to many not have been sold in the US.  At least I've never seen one, only references online.  The Special Products or SP series sold here were the 25, 15, and 10.  The original SP-10 had built-in power supply and on/off switch.  The SP-10 Mk 2 included those in a separate box and added quartz lock, among other improvements.  That was followed by the SP-10 Mk2A and Mk 3.  Plus there were broadcast versions of at least the Mk 2.

More detailed information can be found online for those interested.

Technics SP-20 (released in 1976) is a budget version of SP-10mk2. The price for SP-20 in Japan was 60 000 Yen in the 70’s. Don’t mix it up with the cheaper SP-10 released in 1969, the SP-20 is a way different (improved, powerfull turntable) and it’s only one step behind the marvelous hi-end SP-10MK2, they are looks nearly the same! The main different is the internal power supply, the rest of the specs you can read below. Technics SP-20 is wonderful Direct Drive Quartz-Locked turntable with amazing speed stabily, it plays 33 and 45 only.

This is my ex SP-20 in the teak wood plinth with UA-7045 tonearm, Stax headshell and AT20SLa cartidge:
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/30848737_2185174628167359_9100562755345439545_o.jpg?_...


Technical data for TECHNICS SP20 (1976):

Driving System : Servo Controlled Direct Drive

Speed : 33-1/3 and 45 rpm

Platter : Aluminum diecast 32cm, weight 2.5 kg.

Starting torque Characteristic : 1.5kg × cm // Less than 0.7 （90゜） second to reach normal speed (33-1/3 rpm).

Load fluctuation : 1.5kg x cm within 0％

Rotation speed deviation : ±0.002％

Wow & Flutter : Less than 0.025%（JIS C5521）wrms.

S/N Ratio : 60dB（IEC17B） // 73dB（DIN45539B）

Power Consumption : 4W

Inertial mass : 345k × cm2

Outline Dimensions : 368.5 × 99 × 368.5mm

Weight : 8.0kg

Power : 100v / 60Hz

I'm sorry vinny but statements like this discourage any further comment, "Half The money id spend on a lenco would blow away any technics table ever made."

From your questions you obviously don't have experience with all the options for "any technics table ever made" so why would you say that?

Noting against a rebuilt Lenco, they obviously have many fans.  But there seems to be a larger number of experienced audiophiles who are very happy with their Technics.  Again sorry but there is no single audio component I can think of which has universal praise and approval.

Just FYI, the SP-25 offered the motor unit from the SL-1200 but without plinth or arm for those preferring to select their own.  The SP-15 was a clear step up in performance, as was then the SP-10 Mk 2 above that and then again the SP-10 Mk 3.  The new series of Technics tables may well offer further sonic improvements over the respective older models.  I've not seen any direct comparisons.  But I did hear a demo of the SL-1000R and while there was no direct comparison with any competitor at that time I can say I've never heard a more musically realistic presentation from an LP I'm well familiar with.

@audiomaster1967 hi are you still following your post?
Who can do this modification?

@chakster what about sp25?

You doubt, but i owned all of them and SP-20 is much better than SL1200mkII if you will make a nice plinth for it, my friend replaced his rewired SL1200mkII with SP-20 + Lustre GST-801 and the difference is huge!

The SP-10mkII is the ultimate for extremely low price, i paid no more than $1200 including shipping for my unit 5 years ago (it was in mint condition), now they are a bit more expensive (maybe $1400), but anyway it’s simply amazing turntable.

However, i prefer my Luxman PD-444 to all of them.

I can not speak about the Lenco, never owned, but i love Direct Drive turntables, personally i don’t want any idler drive or belt drive in my life.

I have tweaked my pair of SL1200mkII long time before i bought at SP-10mkII. In my opinion the cartridge is more important, my first top class MM were Technics EPC-100c mk3, 205c mk4. On stock tonearm they are great if you can find them with strong damper (which is very hard to find). I even tried ZYX Airy III on stock Technics tonearm with KAB fluid damper. But i was more impressed by the EPA-100 tonearm on my SP-10MKII with those cartridges and later Reed 3P "12.

My advice is to start with full re-wiring and MM cartridge for your stock tonearm, the AT-ML170 is a killer cartridge for this arm even without fluid damper. It’s a mid compliance cartridge, so you don’t need super light or very high tonearm for it (which means that you can swap the arm later). My favorite is AT-ML180 which i use myself. I don't think you will buy a super expensive tonearm for your SL1200mkII, because if you do it's a bit crazy and not worth it (for this particular turntable). Luxman TA-1 with removable armwand would be nice if you gonna use some high compliance cartridges like Stanton or Grace or Sonus, i believe this arm is rare with its heavy stabilizer, but still under $750. Actually Grace F-9F or F-14 are quite good even on stock technics arm with fluid KAB damper.  

@chakster i just got the 1200mk2.  I doubt sp20 is any better than a 1200 and sp10 mk2 prices not worth the quality i may as well modify a lenco than to pay for inflated price for overrated sp10mk2/3. Half The money id spend on a lenco would blow away any technics table ever made.

May i ask you @vinny55
Do you have this turntable ?
Just add KAB fluid damper and Isonoe footers, replace all wires, buy cardas litz or discovery litz (for tonearm) and Zu Audio Mission Phono RCA cable that you can buy on ebay every week for promotional price directly from Zu Audio (USA) under $150 max. Find yourself a good MM cartridge and listen to this deck first! This is minimum investment and maximum improvement you can do with SL1200mkII if you’re not gonna invest more than the actual price of the better turntable (SP-20 or SP-10mkII).

If you want to change tonearm you have limited space on the armboard, you need a new custom armboard, you have to measure pivot to spindle distance. You can mount any toneam with appropriate pivot to spindle distance if this arm can be fixed on the new custom armboard. That’s all you need to know, really. Internet is full of info about SL1210 mods, Jelco is one of the most popular solution, old or new SME is another one. I can add Luxman TA-1 tonearm (made by Micro Seiki) or Victor UA-7045 or Infinity Black Widow for extremely high compliance MM carts... But as i said any toneam can be mounted if the pivot to spindle distance is ok with the new armboard.

If you don’t have this turntable my strong advice is to buy SP-10mkII instead and invest to infinity to this (better) turntable.

Anyone shed new light on mods tonearms for this table?

09-29-15: Jw_dewdney
Just goes to show that sentimentality trumps 'ears' every time. It's practically an epidemic in the 'high end' community. We will always find reasons to rationalize something either sentimental or 'cool looking' over something that actually does articulate music better.

No, the high-end world is much more complicated than this simplistic summation of how audio "always" works "every time."

Just goes to show that sentimentality trumps 'ears' every time. It's practically an epidemic in the 'high end' community. We will always find reasons to rationalize something either sentimental or 'cool looking' over something that actually does articulate music better.

Techie, You are only allowed two exclamation points per post, plus one inappropriate question mark. Sorry.

I have a very inexpensive system,
Techie1210mk2,marantz pm5004 amp,marantz cd 5004,Cambridge audio stream magic6, and a set of tannoy v4 floorstanderz ! For me the techie really does the job ,even better since I added a m97xe ,vinyl sounds great ! Just as I remember it all those years ago ! And to think all I had then was a Sanyo music centre ! The tone arm had no adjustment at all ! I think for the money I paid I got a good deal ? I paid £175 for a project essential deck that sounded like a coffee grinder if you turned the music down ! Turn of everything with the techie and you can't hear anything ?
I for one am satisfied !
Cheers !!

I can believe that. I really feel there's nothing wrong with my M5G with the A-T 150MLX cart. For $900, which is what I paid for both the cart and 'table, it's a bargain, imo. I would probably have to at least pay twice as much to eek out better performance. And will that performance be head and shoulders of what I already have? I'm thinking maybe, maybe not...

add KAB mods to 1200 tonearm and no Rega of any kind will compete at any price.

@ 57s4me

The only difference, tonearm, was against the ORIGINAL SL-1200.

Despite the REGA had better tonearm, and exactly the same cartridge, and all the other factors being equal, Technics sounded better.

Hellenic_vanagon,

Sir, my mistake in writing too hastily! I merely wanted to point out that comparisons are probably meaningless or at best misleading when the number of variables is larger than one.
Sincerely, 57s4me

@ 57s4me

Sir, it is specified clearly that both turntables, TECHNICS SL-120 ORIGINAL MK1 and REGA PLANAR 3 had exactly the same cartridge, SHURE V15 III.

The only difference is that the TECHNICS had a slightly inferior tonearm.

That's why reviewer says:

"So at least in the case of the Technics SL-120 and the Rega Planar 3, we were hearing almost entirely the sound of the turntables themselves, rather than sound of the tonearms and cartridges."

Cool, sounds good.

I've got pretty fine arsenal of various carts utpo $500 worth.
Some of them are being upgraded re-tipped.

If you haven't heard the 1200 with a higher end MM cartridge (at least $200-$300) you're in for a treat. I had a less expensive cartridge on there, and it was pretty good, but when I upgraded the cart, now it's really, really good! :D

1200 vs. Rega is unfair match I guess similar to Vladimir Klitchko vs. Oscar Dela Hoya.
Any parameter you pick up 1200 is going to score high against most of Regas. Not sure what those higher-end Regas built like, but design in general for all of models budget oriented while in 1200 it's performance and durability oriented.
Quiet motor, RPM stability(vs. frequent RPM instability in Regas), TRACTION and TRACTION again to the point that dirt cheap cartridge will smoke most of Regas with high-end ones and I'm only talking about stock unmodded versions(have currently 4 for DJ use). Bass control, realistic and precise mids...
I hardly ever DJ now -- no time for it, but still rent them out to DJ's and there's certainly factor of built quality and reliability. I guess any Rega would just simply collapse trying to 'outrun' 1200.

I rest my case in peace.

I'm sure you don't.

Audio police? Isn't "Krout" a derogatory word for a German?
Not sure if you're trying to be funny or sarcastic Schubert.

Kiko, so glad you recognize only we have free speech!
When I lived in Germany and Finland the audio police were everwhere .Poor Krauts were scared to death.

Point taken, all good.

In terms of motor isolation and its mechanical aspects:

Belt driven tables, with dedicated power supply units can provide excellent motor isolation.

Rega's new power supply/motor anti-vibration circuit (TT-PSU) comes from both the P9 power supply and the P25 anti-vibration motor drive feeding the 24V AC synchronous motor.

It uses a remote wall wart transformer keeping hum & noise to a minimum and away from all sensitive parts, such as the cartridge.

It uses exactly the same high stability crystal locked low distortion sine wave generator that was used in the late P9 power supply.

It is said to generate a 24Volt AC balanced signal of less than 0.05% distortion.

Not bad for a combined cost of $1290.00

No hard feelings and happy listening!

Kiko65, I did not say the SL1200 sounds better nor do I care. The Rega probably does sound better and good for you! I'm not a fan of the SL1200 at all. It was not about taste. All I wanted to point out was your idea about direct drive's motor isolation and its mechanical aspects and also your claims about belt drive being more stable. Those are not taste issues. I personally like all three drive systems, direct, idler, and belt drive. They are just like food to me which goes back to taste and I have no qualms about tastes!

.

Hiho,
So glad we live in a free country where we are able express ourselves without being ostracized.

If you read well, I am not criticising Direct Drive TTs, just summarising what thousands of music lovers have reported/experienced so far. I simply tried to express that both have pros and cons and, in the end, it really boils down to taste.

There is no right or wrong, just a matter of opinion.

I read Les_creative_edge comments well and STILL stand by my comments:

TO MY EARS, my Rega sounds more engaging than the late SL1200 MKII.

Sometimes is better to agree to disagree.

Happy listening!

Even so I'll never sell it. It's become an icon.

Same here. And due to the fact they're not manufactured anymore, makes keeping it a no-brainer...

Dont shout about a TURKEY!!!

Some years back I had a chance to do a direct comparison with an SP10 with an Ortofon arm and two new Grado cartridges. It was very clear that the combination of a good arm and the much more robust drive made the idea of tweaking my SL very questionable.

In some respects the SL is a good choice for some but my Well Tempered Classic kills it. I don't think it has anything to do with speed stability, I think it's the constant cogging of the drive and/or the arm but I can't say for sure.

Even so I'll never sell it. It's become an icon.

As to high end, I totally understand why many may be enamored by it and as long as it's money one can afford to spend it's ok! I believe in the value to cost ideals though. I do not buy low end junk but I also do not see the value in the diminishing returns that uber high end gives in terms of performance over the multitude of quality gear at lower prices. Of course as audio jewelry of uber high end, well that's another discussion on said value or lack there may be.

The audiophoolery stuff though abounds in this hobby/adventure. I hate the snake oil crap that succeeds in taking money from otherwise regular peoples pockets. I have fallen even slightly for some of this snake oil crap. I've learned my lesson on it all.

I understand. Again, there's some of the uber high end that is head and shoulders sound wise above less expensive units. Not all of it falls into the diminishing returns camp. Is it still overpriced? Probably, but most of audio is that way, and the resale value isn't that great save a few select brands. But, you get what you pay for, imo. On the other hand, I am not adverse to good bang for the buck stuff. That certainly has its merits too. It all boils down to what you are looking for, and what can you get out of it to have a true satisfying emotional and musical experience.

I don't care for snake oil either. I'm not into crazy off the wall tweaks and such. However, I do believe that good quality cables make a difference. That has been a long running debate for at least 30 years now. I base my judgements by my experiments in my own system as well as others. I use excellent cables now, which were not cheap, and I use to have the dirt cheap stuff. And in my opinion, the current cables I now use succeed over the cheaper brands I formerly used. I did hear a noticeable difference; it wasn't subtle.

05-23-14: Kiko65
The general rule is that a belt drive can be more stable and isolated than direct drive.

Belt drive should provide better isolation from the motor. It's also believed to filter out flutter by being elastic.

In theory, belt drive should have the lowest rumble of the two, with Direct having less wow and flutter.

These "rules" you generalized have been repeated ad nauseam in forums and they are shaky. Please reread Les_creative_edge's comments.

I know the term "magnetic drive" was used as a marketing ploy to deflect the bad reps direct drive garnered in the past but it is in fact an apt way to describe how it works. The interface between the motor and platter is not a belt nor idler wheel but a magnetic force. You cannot get any mechanically simpler than that as there is only ONE single moving part!

.

As to high end, I totally understand why many may be enamored by it and as long as it's money one can afford to spend it's ok! I believe in the value to cost ideals though. I do not buy low end junk but I also do not see the value in the diminishing returns that uber high end gives in terms of performance over the multitude of quality gear at lower prices. Of course as audio jewelry of uber high end, well that's another discussion on said value or lack there may be.

The audiophoolery stuff though abounds in this hobby/adventure. I hate the snake oil crap that succeeds in taking money from otherwise regular peoples pockets. I have fallen even slightly for some of this snake oil crap. I've learned my lesson on it all.

I very much agree with your views on direct drive. I disagree with your view on the uber high end. Yes, it is expensive and probably overpriced. But some of it is actually really good stuff. It just depends on the manufacturer, the engineering, and the type of people that run the operations. Imo, the really good companies do not indulge in the snake oil business. It's true there's a lot of dubious marketing involved, but it's up to the consumer to see through that. And as you said, "it's your money." The point is to be happy and put together a system that brings forth a very satisfying musical experience!

Ok, not sure why I bother in this rather circular argument but I will add my 2 cents.

Every direct drive turntable I've read about and seen measured has lower wow & flutter and better rumble figures than most any belt drive unit. They also have in the magnitude of 10-100 times better speed stability. Now both properly made belt drive and direct drive turntables will have most/all sonic flaws be below general audibility. So we are talking for typically a debate only.

Direct drive turntables DO NOT have the motor in any direct contact with the platter. Any vibrations of the motor can only come through the bearing mount and the rest of the chassis. Engineers can reduce or mostly eliminate much of that. Since a direct drive motor turns 1:1 speed any first order vibrations will be at 33.3 or 45 rpm only. Well below what most of us will normally hear, at least as problematic.

Belt drive if engineered well can provide superb playback but all belt drive motors are coupled to the platter, yes a rubber belt acts as an isolator but it does attach the motor to the platter. On top of that most belt drive motors are 300 or 600rpm design. The vibrations they give in the first order will be at 300 and 600 rpm and if not filtered out/down well may be heard by normal human hearing.

This is why again pretty well any good direct drive turntable measures better W&F and lower rumble numbers.

I've owned both drives, both can sound great and can provide years of enjoyment but quite simply if engineered properly a direct drive turntable is a superior playback machine for all crucial specs, W&F, speed stability, affects due to temp. and humidity and rumble. It is not even a competition. To argue against such makes no sense to me.

This said as long as the engineering understands things, a belt drive turntable can provide a sonic pleasure that most any human can enjoy and will be generally incapable to hear any of the playback back ills we do not like such as W&F, speed stability problems and rumble issues. But belt drive requires more routine maintenance such as replace the of belts due to use, and age. Belt drivers do not like huge temp. and humidity ranges and many lack torque to deal with stylus drag in groove modulations. The question is can this stylus drag in groove modulation be heard? Well that is another rather circular argument, much like debating $2000 power cords vs the $5.00 ones.

I have a classic, high end, vintage, quartz locked, direct drive turntable. Impeccably engineered when the Made In Japan Corps had huge amounts of cash to R&D these behemoths. It's has impeccable speed stability, suffers from no cogging nonsense, has superior W&F measured less than .025% wrms/.04% Din. It has a measured rumble of >78db. It has a speed stability measure at <.002%. Set up properly and used properly it makes no audible room incursion noises, it's dead silent as a drive system on LP playback noise. It's near maintenance free and I will put it up against any other turntable made. I'm not saying it will equal or best all, but that it will not be embarrassed by any be they regular priced models or even uber high end ones.

Sorry folks I once began to fall in to this higher end, audiophile stuff (err, mucho crappola) and eventually realized too much of it is snake oil. I'm a hi-fi buff and anal about care and use of all my gear. I have very good hearing and I am a rather critical listener to music. I am human and not perfect so as such these flaws affect listening and pleasure of music. I put good money for value and I do not (sorry if this offends) delude myself in to a world of uber high end, too much audiophile snake oil. But if such works for others SO BE IT! IT'S YOUR MONEY!

I owned a heavily modified SL1200 MKII:
Jelco SA-750d arm
Funk Achromat
Mapleshade threaded brass footers
KAB-PS outboard power supply
KAB-strobe disabler
Clearaudio headshell leads

Not bad at all and lived happily with it for a few years. The REAL FACT is that, to my ears, it didn't sound as satisfying as my current heavily modified Rega RP3. Extremely light and rigid with breathtaking reproduction of music with the right isolation.

The general rule is that a belt drive can be more stable and isolated than direct drive.

Belt drive should provide better isolation from the motor. It's also believed to filter out flutter by being elastic.

In theory, belt drive should have the lowest rumble of the two, with Direct having less wow and flutter.

Belt drive usually works with a rubber belt or band that drives the platter or sub-platter from the motor spindle. This method should have low rumble but a higher risk of wow (slow speed fluctuations) as the belt stretches and tensions. This can be effectively controlled with a decent power supply unit.

Direct drives should have little wow and rumble, but can exhibit flutter (high-speed fluctuations) if not correctly controlled. Some (like yours) have crystal-controlled speed generators and produce excellent results.

As to what is best... I don't think that will ever be answered.

It all boils down to taste and synergy.

Happy listening!

Hellenic-vanagon,
Yes, this was a fun read to be sure - but it did omit a crucial control; the cartridges were not matched. This was a major flaw in attempting to compare the turntables themselves. Brent, in the last paragraph, does make mention of this, but more should be made of this point.

The facts have been known for a very long time: every cartridge and arm combination will produce resonances at various frequencies. These resonances will greatly alter the resultant sound, either to your preference or away from it.

Add to this the fact that the speakers in use will have had a specific 'voice', and the problems compound so much that it becomes impossible to know exactly what is being discovered. In fact the whole exercise might just have been an example of equipment matching and no more.

In any scientific comparison like the above it is simply essential to minimise the variables, otherwise the results are useless.

So my conclusion is there was no useful conclusion. This is in no way meant to criticize or praise any of the equipment under 'test'; no doubt they all had their attributes, but we're really none the wiser:-)

The correct SL-1200 is the SERVO ORIGINAL MK1.

Please have a look in this blind test vs Rega:

http://www.iavscanada.com/Articles/art_turntable.htm

please contact me offline

Fidelity_Forward@mail2lawrence.com

Lawrence, You sign with "Fidelity Forward" and have mentioned in another thread that you make audio equipment. I cannot find your site when I Google on Fidelity Forward. Can you provide a link or am I mistaken?

I too have just evaluated an old MKII with a very good well known(to me at least) MM cartridge that i know can play like real music...

this deck really shows off its speed stability in ALL ranges!! can sound quite nice sometimes really has incredible dynamics!... but as you all know some issues with the tonearm has its funny sounds....

someone needs to do some side by side testing with the big boys...IMO this deck kills the sp10MKII i had..... a real good find.... who would have known?!

I am not getting rid of mine...

Thanks to the OP :)

Lawrence
Fidelity Forward

I am using a Denon DL-103r.

I found this (and some familiar old characters) and thought that I might spur a conversation about good cartridge matches.

I have been running my 1210 with an SME 309 tonearm for a few years now--while not an expert, I do love the combination I ended up with it when I went to find a $4-5000 table to replace my 1210 but did not find anything I liked that much more. I instead took the plunge on swapping the tonearm and outboarding the power supply.

Any cartridges you love on your 12x0?

Assuming that we all hear sound the same way, the only method to truly evaulate if one table sounds better than another would be to compare them in a blind test.

Can anybody recall any threads that describe results from a blind test?

With the Cardas re-wire and fluid damper offered by KAB the whole "myth" about the poor performance of the 1200's arm goes right out the door and makes it at least the sonic equal (or better)to any of the Rega arms you mention.

Kevin at KAB, says it best...
"Here's something to think about: how many high end tonearms can you name that specify bearing finish and friction? (take your time while you dig up the manual to your high-end arm)

Well, while you ponder that, consider this: the Technics SL-1200 tonearm is specified to have a bearing finish of ± 0.5 microns. This and the extra closeness of pivot center to the bearings results in a minimal friction of 7 milligrams. The '1200 arm has friction specified at 7 miligrams. That may be the lowest friction specified in an owners manual.(That is if you can actually find it listed in most manuals) It is important to note that the 1200 arm was designed at a time when tracking forces were pushing the 0.75 gram range. So a good margin of safety would place the bearing friction at 100 times less than that."

So the nit-picking about the 1200's arm has no basis in truth, no matter what any so-called "expert" might say.

Audiofeil mentioned that the most significant factor blocking the Technics SL12x0 series is its tonearm. Fair enough. After all, when first introduced in the mid-'70s, Panasonic also offered the SL-120, which was a turntable only with an armboard to accommodate a SME tonearm. For those who already have SL12x0 turntables, the most cost-effective and logical upgrade would be to get a Rega-compatible armboard from Origin Live or SME armboard from

Before the Technics SL12x0 series was discontinued, you could regularly get an SL1210 mkii for $399 from Musicians Friend. Add $100 for an Oracle/RB30x armboard and an RB250/251/300/301/303 and you could have a killer 'table for under $3K with speed accuracy you normally pay a lot more to get.