This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
Although two people participated it may not be a double-blinded study, but it has as much weight as anything on this thread. I declare the possibility that piano keys change hardness with changing acoustics of the room, incorrect and likely a placebo effect. I suspect that some level of hypnosis was involved in that original finding. In 2018, it is not true. Done.
You are funny, but so correct. On the other hand, some of the responses cross even the most liberal limits. I mean, calling for people to drop dead is hardly a behavior anyone should tolerate.
It’s no problem. I know exactly what I’m getting in to with the occasional interaction with geoff. This was just a little opportunity to remind folks that our neighbouhood dog that barks at everyone is toothless ;-)
"He could actually feel the keys get lighter or heavier to
strike as I was tuning."
?????
I can only say that his fingers are much more sensitive than mine. I cannot say that I did a full Michael Green attack on my room, but I did move a few pillows, a chair, and a few more reflective items around. I guess I need new, more sensitive, fingers. Hey, I just "walked". I did not get far, though.
Unfortunately, none of the people from the picture on Tuneland and that article that jf47t shared seems to be associated with SUNY-Oneonta anymore. That limits my original idea to stop by and walk the walk where brave once walked. I would really like to hear what it is all about although I would do it without disassembling anyone’s expensive equipment or waking up the whole fire station.
"...if you don’t fall in line or dare annoy him with difficult questions."
In reality, none of the questions here have been that difficult. Some have been practically unanswerable, but that was also not difficult to figure out.
"...rhetorical device MG uses to maintain the self-aggrandizing status as The Supreme Walker."
It certainly does not appear this would be the case. If anything, based on majority of responses, it seems that the overall effect was quite the opposite. Silly part is that it could have been easy to make this thread a nice promotional vehicle for one’s ideas, if only treaded carefully.
Without knowing what is what, it is all just an empty talk. In this thread, we have not even agreed what constitutes "walk" or "talk", yet it gets fiercely argued.
That is exactly correct, and it is what I observed in the second post in this unending thread:
I don’t care for the notion expressed in the cliche of not walking the walk. Real audiophiles "walk the walk" when they make decisions about their systems. That some may not like their gait is their problem. Just because someone doesn’t do things your way does not make then a fake, as you allege.
Audiophiles also "walk the walk" when they enjoy listening to music on their systems, or share their system with others, or help another audiophile on his journey, or, or , or ...
Michael Green is right, unless we all really do it we do not know how it is. How do you think it would be if everyone on this thread started "walking"? If each person participating actually did a few things from the tuning textbook. I suspect that the magic would do some moyamoya trick and all of a sudden we would all be credible after just a few moments. No more "trolls", only "walkers". If there is a wonderful difference, we report it. If there is no difference, we report it. If most of the people say there was no difference, well, it was not them who asked people to :"walk". Whoooosh, no more tuning argument. Or, if everybody hears improvement, tuning becomes "the thing".
For all the fairness, and avoidance of any conflict of interest, equipment used should not be Michael Green brand, but anything else.
It really should not be that hard. Some wood, a screwdriver, electronics with expired warranties (so not to make it void), and a couple of hours. Really, why are we not doing it?
glupson - if you are so naive and gullible not to know what I mean by rich audiophile I ain’t going to tell you. Since I was addressing Lizzie when I made that remark why don’t you ask her?
Never wise up a chump or give a sucker an even break.
Without knowing what is what, it is all just an empty talk. In this thread, we have not even agreed what constitutes "walk" or "talk", yet it gets fiercely argued. We only know what a "troll" is. Everyone we do not like or have no ability to discuss with in a civilized and logical manner.
I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).
>>>>Gosh, that’s deep. That’s sort of the blah blah blah MG was referring to if I’m not mistaken. Can we take your efforts to basically mean no efforts, at least no successful ones? 😛 By the way, nice to have a quorum again for the talkers side.
My sentiments are in hearty agreement with yours! There’s a limit to how much energy I’d want to put into just being able to listen to music, and dialing endless audiophile tweaks sounds like drudgery. Especially the keep tuning, tuming, tuning per program material of the MG school! Let alone tearing apart much of my gear. The Tuneland photos are to my eyes aesthetic nightmares and it seems pretty obvious why, even if effective at all, it’s going to have a very limited audience. You can’t show rooms like that to anyone and claim “I’m just all about the MUSIC, maaan!”
No. You really aren’t. Normal people, especially musicians, can happily enjoy music without tearing their equipment apart in the worry that every errant vibration may be diluting the sound quality. This is the sign someone really is in to THE GEAR and tweaking. And there is nothing wrong with that, either!
I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).
I am already well into “kooky” territory in my efforts relative to the non-audiophile (and I continue to experiment with things like room acoustics etc).
That’s why I’ve continually supported in this thread any Tuner’s hobby. If they get a kick out of opening up their gear and trying Michael’s ideas, more power to them. I hope Michael’s techniques really work out for them.
"A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio nirvana as a 🐫 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle."
Is audio nirvana a club? Is there a doorman? Do you have to bribe him with an mpingo disc or a shiny pebble or crystal? If Lizzie can’t get in then who can? Are you, MG, and jf47t members....are you on the board....who is chairman of the board? Is Robert a member or is he MG’s guest? Maybe audio nirvana a state of mind....or mindlessness....or mind numbing insensibility. There are so many rules to follow it is a wonder anyone has a stereo system anymore.
The project he refers to is one I’d made a thread detailing .
The building of the isolation base was occasioned by trying to add re-enforcement and isolation to a flimsy older Lovan rack, to accommodate my new and very heavy full aluminum transrotor turntable.
This is was not a rack I trusted with my turntable in the first place so I had to redo it before even setting up my turntable.
I ordered and checked out a large number of isolation materials and products, eventually making sure I used the ones that I could measure as having significant isolation. Hence I ended up with a thick maple wood block base, atop a sort of “layman’s” version of constrained layer damping, held up my Townsend isolation pods (springs).
The result was at the very least a very obvious reduction of gross external vibrations - both by hand feel and measuring with a seismometer app.
Place a hand or iPad with seismometer app on one of the lower “untreated” shelves and one can very easily feel foot fall near the rack, and the seismometer registers huge, ringing spikes of vibration. But place a hand atop the isolation base and you feel no vibration transmitted even stomping the nearby ground. The seismometer app also registers almost nothing. (Even these results are welcome as my youngest son stomps through our house like Godzilla).
I finished my thread by pointing out that this situation of having to rebuild my rack before listening to the turntable meant I had no before and after reference and could not rightly tell anyone the sonic dividends the base may, or may not, have rendered. I also pointed out that not being an expert in these issues, and not having been able to carefully draw a line via more rigorous testing from anything I employed to a sonic result, the honest position for me was to admit this and not make any such claims that I couldn’t back up.
But that nonetheless it was fun and interesting playing with all of this stuff, learning what I could to the extent I did, and that it was a DIY project that Was satisfying in its own right.
Now...THIS^^^^^ is what geoff would like to spin into a project “gone awry.” And in geoff’s world of making grand unsubstantiated claims, being honest enough to refrain from making overreaching claims counts as abject failure.
Something to contemplate when reading his never ending attempts at barbs and insults.
And of course Michael Green would still never acknowledge any of those effforts as “waking” instead of “talking” because: 1. I didn’t use little tuned wood blocks or tear apart my equipment and 2. Acknowledging my efforts as “doing/walking” wouldn’t fit the narrative he has going that I’m just a Faker/Talker.
As I recall you said you couldn’t really hear the fruits of your labor. It was in the same post in which you mentioned my name as giving some advice or whatever. About three months ago. Hearing the results is really the most important thing, no?
I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs. I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed. Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.
But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes. There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)
>>>>No surprises there. I said it ain’t easy. There’s also the thing to consider your attempts with lots of things like, you know, vibration isolation, oft go awry. 😛 No wonder you’re just a big skeptic! What do they call that? Oh, yeah, a self-fulfilling prophecy. 😀 Would I be taking a cheap shot by saying you could be the poster boy for operator error? 😳
There are a few pictures in that 2006 article that jf47t referenced. One of the pictures shows the ceiling vent opening close to one of the devices you had placed (it says "The Steinway with microphones and PZCs" under the picture although I think it is not related to the picture itself). What do you do about it? Wouldn’t the air coming from the vent forcefully throw all the preconceived theories away? All the ideas and drawings would be wiped out as irrelevant in this case. Is there any secret to managing that?
I might have missed it in the article, but was that set-up and your involvement just for that particular recording or was that studio arranged by you for the longer run?
In case anyone is interested, the article that jf47t referenced regarding my question about people on one picture brings some unique view I had never expected to see anywhere. It is the first time that word "bureaucracy" appears as something positive what we should be grateful for. It may not help the sound, but dead ears do not hear so it may be a fair trade off.
As Michael indicated when I interviewed him
regarding the studio designs, significant barriers to new ways of thinking are
encountered when one comes up against the bureaucracy. In this case, state fire
codes prohibited using the kind of wood materials for the walls and floors of
the studio that were originally intended.
I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs. I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed. Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.
But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes. There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)
tomcy6 Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued?
>>>>Yes, my curiosity was piqued. Wasn’t yours?
I already outlined the logic behind wood, especially the highly resonant Mpingo wood. The Mpingo discs are not used as feet. Other parameters besides the type of wood are important. E.g., when wood is used for a top plate of an iso stand or a self it should be a minimum thickness to resist bending forces. I also outlined my logic for choosing non-wood materials for coupling, I.e., extremely hard materials for grounding components and iso stands. The logic included ranking the best to worst materials for use as coupling cones, from NASA grade ceramics and diamonds to brass and carbon fiber and wood on the lower end of the hardness scale, corresponding to the best sound to worst sound. Perhaps you were daydreaming and missed it.
Pictures are really interesting for someone with no previous exposure to such things. They may not make a person a convert, but they do add another dimension. Until now, it has all been fully talk. Not that pictures prove anything, but why would anyone doubt it anyway?
MG is in the curing shop but I know he has an interest in building the thread on TuneLand with both words and pictures. I don't know how much time he is going to dedicate to the thread but I do know it will answer any questions of relevance asked here including ones like you've just asked. I will help him sort through the thread here. To answer the question about who is in the pictures.
No matter who feels they are right the only way to actually know is to "walk" (do).
Definitely true. However, a person can make the process more efficient by talking before, or even during, walking. Then there may be no sadness about a lifetime not being enough.
tomcy6 Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued? This could be a whole new product line for you.
>>>>Actually the possibilities aren’t endless. And I didn’t say ebony was the only beneficial wood. Don’t put words in my mouth. Maybe you should go back and read what I said, Mr. Snooty Pants.
It's good that slowly people are talking about their personal walking more and either showing proof or avoiding it with the cover up of even more "talk". If we look at the thread on TuneLand "Talk but not walk?" Michael Green Audio & RoomTune supply the actual proof of "doing" the empirical testing.
No matter who feels they are right the only way to actually know is to "walk" (do). When and if you do you will find that audio is variable. Those who do not come to this conclusion are not doing the walking they claim to be. It doesn't matter what posters on this thread say about each other as people the industry and hobby of playing and listening to music comes down to one truth "a recording is captured and that recording is played back". "every recording is different and the requirements on the playback end are to be able to tune in that recording". In the HEA hobby where do you find the proof of this? Where people are actually doing.
There is a picture of four men on Tuneland (this latest thread you have there) in which a taller one has sunglasses and one wears a vest. I am mentioning it just to identify the picture. Are those guys anyone we know from this thread? Just trying to put a picture together with words.
Also, there is a picture or two on which electronic equipment with silver faceplates, looks like an amplifier and maybe a CD player (resembles Audio Research design, but not clear from the picture) seems to have all the covers in place. Is that correct? Pictures are a little blurry and items relatively far. Other equipment seems to have covers removed. Is there any story behind it? Why did you decide to leave these particular covers on? Or did I see it incorrectly, which is about 50% likely?
Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued?
As Michael Green has provided pictures of the use of Springs, Cones and Wood please have Starsound provide the same so that we know you are not just talking. Thank you!
With some delay, I looked at that thread on Tuneland that was mentioned by jf47t and I am glad I did.
It shows your perspective for some of the things and I could agree with some of them. More places to actually listen in is a big missing piece in whole story and, unfortunately, you have not been successful at promoting it (according to your writing). Too bad. Instead of that, we are now left with reading reviews and buying equipment (tuning blocks are also equipment for this purpose) we have never heard properly or maybe even seen outside of the computer monitor. I wish you succeeded.
You did put a definition of an audiophile and elaborated on some of those aspects, but missed to emphasize the difference between "audiophile" and her/his related field (audiophilia?) and HEA (High End Audio). It does read as if audiophiles are somehow lower class than those leaning towards HEA. What would be a definition of HEA? No, I am not trying to "troll" you. It seems that difference is significant in your view, while I thought those would be at least overlapping, if not mostly synonyms.
Regardless of what HEA is, mention of the "cult" in this thread had nothing to do with HEA itself. It was clearly referring to participants’ views of Tuneland forum style. Nothing about music reproduction. Nothing at all. Nothing even about audiophiles or HEA. Just the view of the Tuneland dynamics. Right or wrong.
It is great that you posted all those pictures. Finally. I know, someone will ask for addresses, etc. but for less picky it was great. It brought some idea of what is being done. Well, it also answers the question why there is no wider acceptance of it. No matter how good it sounds, it looks practically unlivable with. Some may do it, but most will have to pass just on the basis of that. Not everyone is retired (surprise!!!) and some have children or pets who are not compatible with that kind of equipment. Their loss, we could say. Would putting some inert material around those exposed electrical parts be really detrimental to the sound? If you could work on that, it would broaden the reach.
I will skip commenting on many of the sentences from the post at around 3 am (June 18). I am only afraid that prof, when he comes back from his vacation, may have a heart attack. Which brings me to another piece.
You state...
The trolls on that forum even went as far as to warn readers not to come check out TuneLand …….So why is it they didn’t want readers to visit here? The answer to that one is simple. They don’t want people to come here, because here is where we "walk" the hobby.
where I happen to be the only one who recommended that Audiogon crowd does not go to Tuneland and forums stay separated and therefore I am the "troll" referenced in your post. You did pick some of my words, changed them a bit, omitted my explanation, and presented your adjusted opinion as firm truth. Had you not done all of that, you could have put me as a spiritual co-author of your sentence in which you explain why two forums are better left separated...
I don’t want to be as personally involved or bring that bad karma over to the pages of TuneLand from any place that might be wanting to sow bad seeds.
I will give you a credit, but you should remember where you read it first and decide if following "troll’s" thoughts makes one a "troll".
Speaking of "trolls", you use that word to an extent that dilutes anything you are trying to convey. It is not the case "if you repeat it enough, it will become the truth". It sticks out like a sore thumb and appears like desperate whining. Don’t do it.
By the way, I am not sure if a person can "troll" her/himself, but according to description of "troll" you provided on Tuneland, you would have qualified on this thread on more than one occasion. It is easy to do it, the definition is too broad.
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