Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
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Hi Elizabeth That's a great example of walking, and a great door opener to other variables. For me, I see people doing this every day (tuning/tweaking) and the ones who have taken their first few steps into the variables you can see their views of the hobby change. The folks who have been doing it for a while, it's like they are in a completely different hobby. There usually comes a time where Tunees make their systems more and more variable. It's like you just said "for your own needs". There's no limits only desire, and there's no right or wrong only taste. Thanks for making your post! I think those kinds of comments are important to help readers understand. michael green |
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Hi kosst It's nice to see you make a post on this thread that doesn't get flagged for breaking forum rules, like most of yours have. My suggestion to you concerning your question is, if you feel owning a stereo is walking in the hobby that's fine. However there's a huge hobby out there to begin exploring and it never ends for those of us who do choose to walk vs those who are still working on their own comprehension skills. That's not meant to be mean but it is meant to qualify something that is pretty basic as listeners mature in the tuning of their systems. Since I was last here on this thread there has been easily over 50 members from this forum exploring their systems through Tuning/Tweaking that I have worked with personally, and I'm sure many more who have explored on their own through reading this thread and deciding to get more involved in the hobby's many variables. Michael Green |
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So here we are a few months into this thread and coming back to visit the forum a couple of times I've notice the revolving door of the same ole thread development on the forum mostly ending in the same ole crash and burn fatalities as I said would happen in this thread's OP. The audiophile world has been moving along just fine, and happy, but HEA stays in a state of decline and the same type of topics over and over. Opinions being thrown in from those who aren't actually doing always ends in the same place, talking without walking. I've noticed even a thread about why people hate HEA, that only a couple of posts in the trolling begins. Doing the hobby is where the happiness lives. All the rest ends in nothing but talk. Michael Green |
Yes, glibson, we get that you aren’t really an audiophile, that you have no real interest in improving your sound, and cannot really develop a sense of how to actually debate any of the audiophile issues that appear on these forums, other than to pose as some sort of phoney baloney home spun Philosopher and facilitator. You aspire to be a Thorn in the side of audiophiles. Aka troll. If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Chill your jets. Take some Valium. At least you’re engaging in some form of walking. Walk it off. Feel better. |
marqmike, I meant my wishes for a nice day sincerely, I felt it at that moment, but really expected, based on my experience here, it would be taken as a sarcasm or something else. I was wrong and I am grateful for that. At the moment of writing, I saw the beautiful day outside and thought, as blasphemous it may be for this particular website, that it would be a waste to spend it inside listening to some electronic equipment or, even worse, trying to improve that equipment. Hence, my suggestion for enjoying the day was to get out and enjoy other aspects of life, forgetting electronics, computers, angry forums, etc. Warm day, blue sky, walk, the works. |
Thanks uberwaltz. I like to wake up and see everyone happy, not ready to war with one another. We have such a great opportunity in this hobby that can enhance our lives. We do at all have to agree, we get to share different expriences that way when we don't always agree. But we can wish everyone well. Thanks for the like mindedness uberwaltz. You have a great day of enjoying whatever there is to be enjoyed today. |
Even though I have very little opinion on this thread except that many of the posts are fairly weird. Or maybe it is just me and that is why I think their weird. I wanted to thank Glupson for the well wishing. I hope you Glupson have a fine day today also hopefully by enjoying several things today. I think it is very nice when people wish each other well as opposed to the alternative. |
Audiogon gets a bad rap. In every human enterprise where progress is almost always the product of fertile and active minds and energetic bodies there can be found naysayers, mossbacks, backsliders, relapsers, philosophers, pseudo skeptics, physics wannabes, sitters, lazybones, Whack a Molers, pretend social psychologists, fuddy-duddies, cheerleaders, an instant Peanut Gallery and lots of what about this, what about that type of chit chat. This is especially true with audio, particularly controversial tweaks, or any word, concept, idea, undertaking more than 1 Sigma off the normal curve, where one finds folks who refuse to believe this hobby is an active and interactive sport. It’s not like stamp collecting or leather crafts or crossword puzzles, you know, hobbies with real short learning curves. If I could explain it to the ordinary person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize. - Richard Feynman An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile saw |
@michaelgreenaudio
Regardless of anyone's opinions about the changes, you guys are fortunate to have someone like Tammy, and the Agon staff, looking out for you.+1 Good leaders don't let ego or fear stand in the way of correcting mistakes or making improvements. Thanks Audiogon for listening and correcting course. |
Oh c'mon let's cut the crap! Yes they are a great help no doubt about it but first and foremost they have a responsibility to the company and the shareholders. Obviously a much better customer service experience than eBay or PayPal but on this occasion it was a major problem of their own making! Nobody in their right mind would roll out a huge change like that without testing it thoroughly and quite possibly on a beta platform. While I am grateful that they mostly fixed the disaster I have little sympathy for their plight in this instance. |
Agree with uberwaltz. Self-serving and smarmy MGA kudos aside, A’gon’s fix was driven by enlightened self-interest. Nothing wrong with that. The search function in the new Classifieds format had become useless and a big obstacle to purchasing. Glad to see business and member interests intersecting such that the "Classic View" has been restored as an option. |
Hi Guys & Gals It’s been a month since my last post on this thread, been busy, but when I have had time I have stopped by this thread and other threads here. I wasn’t necessarily feeling the need to post on this thread again cause the OP speaks for itself, but I do feel inclined to give another example of "walking". This one is pretty impressive to me and serves as a good example of getting down to business. http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/impressive-audiogon-great-job Audiogon could have given a million reasons why they made the changes they did, but when they saw the need and desire of the members they stepped up their efforts to supply not only a newer version but also a comfort zone for the way it was. Playing back music is the same way. Absolutely nothing wrong with staying put. At the same time having the choice to be able to explore the variables gives the hobby that much more to enjoy. Michael Green |
amg56 And finally... You are happy with your system, when you are happy with it. There is no need or compulsion to make it studio like, or above and beyond what is acceptable to you, the owner and listener. Then forget the walking, sit and enjoy what you have. >>>The trouble with the contented cow 🐮 approach to audio is that even though folks may have talked themselves into a state of bliss over their system, once they hear a really good system, assuming they ever leave the house, most of them would get off their Barco Loungers and get to work. Why draw imaginary lines in the sand? Lots of people like their systems. It doesn’t mean they sound good. There are the talkers, the walkers, now we have the sitters. |
trelja @geoffkait "You can not (rpt not) tell anything about the sound from a picture." The statement is false. Forget about taking it literally and the use of the word "any" which opens up a hole big enough to send an aircraft carrier through, a picture is worth a million words. Not to repeat @grannyring but within a second or three, the room, how the system and everything else is sited in it, and the components (provided one has previously experienced them) themselves should let the viewer understand the sound with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Provide a few more specifics such as cabling, cartridge, isolation devices, and tweaks one may not make out from the photo, and the focus becomes all the more clear. >>>>Whatever you say, pal. |
uberwaltz, "How far do you think is needed to "walk the walk"?"That has been an unanswered question for last 30 pages or so. "What if all these changes are taking the sq to areas that were never envisioned or intended?"I tried to raise that possibility earlier in the thread, but that is where it ended. From what I gathered over time, Michael Green/jf47t (sorry guys, I forgot under which name it was at that moment) likes soundstage impressions. We were talking about a CD I had bought based on jf47t's recommendation/mention and it came to what size of room did the reproduction made it feel like it was. Anyways, after some changes to equipment, jf47t mentioned that the perception of the room size had changed (to something bigger, if I remember correctly). To me, it must have been an inaccurate reproduction as the original size of the room was whatever the room was during recording. I do not think there is anything wrong with adjusting the reproduced sound to one's preference, but it does not seem that enlarging or shrinking the soundstage should be considered "better" at all. You could probably use similar analogy for anything else in the description of the sound (tight bass, whatever kind of highs, etc.). |
I hope Michael Green is still following this thread, at least this page 31. The part about the looks of his equipment and ability for users to accommodate it in their homes is easily more important than the improvement of sound such equipment may yield. Extreme looks and practicality will trump (negatively) any sound difference. And the crowd here is, in fact, more willing to go to some inconveniences just to get "better" sound than most of the people out there. If Michael Green could work on appearance of the equipment and its effect, visual and practical, on the space it is in, more people would pay attention to it. This current way, it repels more than it attracts. Coming up with some replacement non-flammable cover to "free" the sound from the dreaded original cover would be the starting point. At some earlier point, I suggested all of this above. No good advice gets appreciated until it is too late. |
Yes I am aware of dipoles and how they interact. Been there, done that. @trelja is spot on. I just feel typing every sonic attribute I am aware of with various pieces of gear and how they interact with rooms would have been far too long a post. Yes, a picture can tell part, not all, of the story in SOME cases. |
@geoffkait "You can not (rpt not) tell anything about the sound from a picture." The statement is false. Forget about taking it literally and the use of the word "any" which opens up a hole big enough to send an aircraft carrier through, a picture is worth a million words. Not to repeat @grannyring but within a second or three, the room, how the system and everything else is sited in it, and the components (provided one has previously experienced them) themselves should let the viewer understand the sound with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Provide a few more specifics such as cabling, cartridge, isolation devices, and tweaks one may not make out from the photo, and the focus becomes all the more clear |
grannyring No, one cannot know exactly how a system sounds from a picture. Well, they can actually get a fair idea sometimes. If I see a big TV screen in between the speakers on the same plane , then I know what that does for sound. Same for many speaker placement errors. I used wood platforms and assorted wood diffusion and footers over the years and have a sense for what they do for sound also. So based on my many rigs, set ups and experience I can certainly speculate on many SQ attributes from pictures. That being said, the Tuneland rooms are extreme and while interesting to me, they will always remain a curiosity as there is no way our living room could ever look like that! >>>Like the old geezer in Chinatown told Geddes, you may think you know what’s going on but you don’t. While your detective work is not completely all wet you still would be unable to know what the sound is in the room with or without a TV. Yes, I realize audiophiles are very high on the idea that a TV between the speakers is a bad idea. But I say that idea is not entirely true. For example, a TV in the center would have little effect for dipoles. Even if there was no TV between the speakers or no TV in the room you STILL wouldn’t be able to say what the sound would be from looking at a picture. Even with lots of expensive room treatments you wouldn’t be able to say what the system would sound like. It might sound like you know what. A picture is not worth a thousand words. It’s not worth anything. |
Hello Onlookers It's been a month since Michael Green has posted here on page 20. Here's the last thing he posted. "So anyway I’m very interested to see the next few posts and the agendas of the posters now that I have given the why of the OP." mg Here's the Talk but not walk? thread on the TuneLand forum. http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t440-talk-but-not-walk-an-audiophile-forum-case-study |
I’m sure Geoff will respond with some cute emojis and/or circular riddles thinking he’s outsmarted, outclevered, or outthought all of us. Realistically, I expect his personal attacks to continue as he has nothing substantial to offer aside from the insults, mindless musings, and product offerings (which speak volumes about him). Indeed, he is little more than a modern day PT Barnum. Here it comes folks, he can’t resist.............LOL |
No, one cannot know exactly how a system sounds from a picture. Well, they can actually get a fair idea sometimes. If I see a big TV screen in between the speakers on the same plane , then I know what that does for sound. Same for many speaker placement errors. I used wood platforms and assorted wood diffusion and footers over the years and have a sense for what they do for sound also. So based on my many rigs, set ups and experience I can certainly speculate on many SQ attributes from pictures. That being said, the Tuneland rooms are extreme and while interesting to me, they will always remain a curiosity as there is no way our living room could ever look like that! |
Sorry to take up everyone’s time but we must yet again rebut the falsehoods and attacks by one Geoffrey C Kait. Ah, the pupil uses the teacher’s thread to rant and rave and promote his rather backward ideas at every opportunity. Ooops, I hope I’m not a baiter. Actually we were addressing the challenges and ramblings on isolation and defending our own from the repetitive Geoffrey C Kait. In our opinion, backward ideas are more defined as selling the public a $39 bag of rocks… $159 for the extra big bag!
Here I find myself replying to the man with well over 10.000 posts where the overwhelming majority involve personality attacks as witnessed and reputed by the masses as a crime of harassing somebody with persistent, inappropriate, and unwanted attention hence the actual definition of a stalker - being Mr. Geoffrey C Kait. Example: Read GK posts on this thread...or any other for that matter! Regards to manufacturer’s participation: We have complained in writing to management requesting that manufacturers should not be permitted to initiate posts on this forum as the results have become quite obvious and defined. This thread was initiated as a marketing strategy and advertising campaign gone awry. Our efforts failed to have new rules implemented therefore we too decided to share in the excitement, separate the advertising fracas from reality and will defend when challenged or personally insulted. Who wouldn’t? Certainly not the duper with over 10,000 posts? Why when Star Sound participates in any thread whatsoever, Geoff Kait is the next immediate response tossing in the first grenade? Check it out as this happens every single time. Geoff you are boring us to death with repetitiveness with exception to your newfound adornment to the Walker in chief.
Example from recent activity:
In our defense, she has far surpassed anything you, Geoffrey C Kait have ever accomplished in your entire lifespan - period. She continues to define and advance Live-Vibe Technology™ and we are extremely humbled by her knowledge, time devotion and willingness to work with us. As stated many times previously Geoffrey; we too were once committed to the camp of isolation. We even purchased your springs for comparisons but never the rocks as we have real issues concerning those technical devices. We constructed racking made from exotic woods, supplied products to the OP improving his rack design function, used air bladders, damped chassis inside and out, built Champion IASCA car audio systems, designed and built over 1,000 custom subwoofer systems by our close friend and member, the late Jay Thomas. You name it Geoffrey and we probably designed it or built it and ‘sold’ it. We learned a lot about sound over time while you were still in college before your employment with NASA or so claimed. What did you accomplish in sound besides that rack built back in 2000 weighing in at over one hundred pounds, but limited to supporting a twenty pound CD player of which you sold how many? Two? Come on Geoffrey here is your chance… the bait is on the hook… tell everyone what makes you so accomplished that you can constantly insult your peers or better yet insult those believed to be inferior to yourself consisting of the world’s entire population as we see it. We await your self-serving reply. Robert PS: That picture you have leading to your website with those largest of horn speakers John the owner of this system is a client of Star Sound. You should hear his system now and imagine how those horns will bloom with Rhythm Platforms™ supporting them? We didn’t see any springs in his system upon our arrival or noticed any of your other products involvement or did you just post that picture from Stereophile archives (with permission we hope) in order to attract people to your site and/or help build up your image? Do you know John? |
You can not (rpt not) tell anything about the sound from a picture. You CAN tell if the person is a neat freak, a slob or an interior decorator, or if his wife is uh, you know, an issue. A neat organized room is no indication of a good sounding system, it’s no indication of how the system sounds. It’s pretty to think so, though. 🌸 It’s like walking into a room at CES or wherever. No matter what the room looks like OR what speakers or electronics or cables are in the room you won’t know what the system sounds like until they play something. On the other hand, if you spot a bunch of tiny little bowls on the walls, a Mpingo disc here and there, maybe some Corner Tunes, suspended cables, an iso stand and some large crystals placed discretely around the room.... |
Just because it looks strange is no reason to assume it will sound good. Maybe it will sound strange. The Wizard of Oz was no wizard at all. Gandolf on the other hand...... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7M4frMcLFUI/VMe6K2zm-LI/AAAAAAAAALo/THJrf1gS57M/s1600/Hobbit%2Bgandalf.JPG Is walking wizardry? |
