SUT suggestions for Audio Note System

Here are the specs for the M6 phono.
The overall specifications for the M6 RIAA phono preamplifier are an input sensitivity of 47 kΩ, an input sensitivity of 126 mV for 1 V output, an output impedance of <10 Ohms,

I would consult with your Audio Note dealer.  As long as the output of the cartridge does not overload the phono section of the M6, you would be able to use their SUT.  Most phono stages have sufficient headroom that the difference between .3 and .6 mv will not be a problem.  The Audio Note SUT are very good.  My local dealer who sells Audio Note gear and who sold Koetsu until their recent demise, often utilized vintage microphone SUT.  He liked these more than most conventional separate SUT on the market other than the Audio Note ones.  I once tried Audio Note's top of the line SUT and was actually relieved that it did not work in my setup (hum issue that defied all attempts to fix) because the price was quite a stretch.

@pkvintage You have several options. the output on your cart is around .6mv 

1.you can try one of Bob's step up devices, 

2. look for a used step up designed to work with that output level.

3. go all out and check out the Ypsilon step ups where they have several models available for the gain needed. 

The output from the Koetsu Black is .4mV and works well with a 1:20 step up.

Thanks Bob but the research I have done shows it being .6. There are 2 blacks. Mine is the early one if that makes a difference. 

I've seen it specified as .6 mV too.  

I suggest you use a 10:1 SUT.  Bob's is very good has a warm sound.  Ysilon is terrific.  I have a Consolidated Silver also terrific.  They all sound different.

budget ? you should wring the last lovely bits out of the Koetsu… try a copper EM / IA if you want a fantastic SUT w expert advice including trial and a silver model

I have a Koetsu Black (not the Goldline but an older Sugano cartridge), and I find it works just fine with either a copper EMIA 1:10 or Audio Innovations T2 1:25.  

To all of you offering advice, it would appear that none of you know anything about the M6 phono and your recommendations could be flawed.

The Audionote phono/SUT solution appears to use a MM gain that is very low, much lower than most MM phono sections and very high gain SUT's.

Can one of you boffins correct me if I am wrong but 126mv to 1v suggests the MM phono only has 18db of gain. The audio note transformers appear to be 30-100 times gain.

This would suggest that if the Koetsu is double the output voltage of the Audionote MC's then he would need half the gain of the Audionote transformers to get the gain write FOR THE AUDIONOTE M6.

I'm guessing something around 1:15 turns should be about right for that weird M^ phono - Denon AU-S1 at 1:14 might be a good fit.

It is very unfortunate that Audionote does not give out enough specifications either in the manual or on their website for their products.

As regards the comments above, personally I would not buy a SUT recommended from a manufacturer who makes recommendation without even bothering to check what the phono specifications are. Recipe for disaster.

If there is a boffin in this thread methinks his name is dover.  I stand by my recommendations.

If there is a boffin in this thread methinks his name is dover.  I stand by my recommendations.

Great.

You recommended a 1:10 transformer which is 20db.

If the M6 MM phono is only 18db he would end up with 38db in total to amplify a LOMC.

Awesome.

I agree with Bill.  If it is the .6mV version, then 1:10 would be the best match.  I saw that the M6 preamp is 18dB, but I don't have specs for the M6 phono, however, if it is a MM phono, I assume about 38 to 40dB.  If someone has the actual specs for the M6 phono, please let me know.   Bill has experience with my older SUT,  There is a newer version he hasn't heard.

Phasemation T-550

https://phasemation.com/product/t-550.html

Some people have asked for the specs of the M6 phono here they are below.

—INPUT IMPEDANCE

47KOhms Phono

-INPUT SENSITIVITY 126mV for 1V Output, Line Level

-GAIN @ 1KHz

68 db phono

16dB Line Level

OUTPUT IMPEDANCE <10 Ohms

OUTPUT NOISE (RMS) <0.08mV unweighted, Line Level

<15mV unweighted Phono

internal impedance of the Koetsu black is 5 ohms

Zesto makes a variable gain (4, 6, 8, 12x) and adjustable impedance SUT. You can easily fine-tune playing volume with pre/integrated amp volume control and have a bit of tone control with impedance setting on SUT. No need to agonize about details, just listen to what works for you. Works for me.

@pkvintage

I had a look at the Audionote website and the manual for your M6 Phono.

So 126mv for 1v out is 18db - that is the line stage specs.

The phono is quoted as 63db. If the phono is 63db then you should not need an SUT at all, there would probably be an internal SUT and the phono would have enough gain for your Koetsu straight in.

I think it is more likely the 63db quoted includes the 18db in the line stage. If this is the case then the phono alone has 45db gain ( 63 - 18 ). If the phono gain is 45db then you probably need a SUT with a gain ratio somewhere between 1:10 ( 20db ) to 1:15 ( 24db ).

I looked at your power amplifier the Audionote Conquest Silver Signature. There are 2 versions -

first one specs out at 250mv for full power. So given the preamp specs are for 1v out you can see the power amp is very sensitive and you have a bit of spare gain.

For this reason I would suggest you try a SUT with 1:10 gain ( 20db ).

Some folk will go on about loading, but my advice is to forget about that and focus on getting the correct gain. Too much and you’ll be running the volume pot too low which can mean channel imbalance more likely.

If your gain is too low, obvious you’ll have a higher noise floor.

There is a low gain version of the Conquest Silver Signature and this is spec’d out at 3.15V to full power. I doubt you have this version.

I can’t see why Audionote should be able to give you advice on this.

Given the quality of your system you want a decent SUT - Stevens and Billington, Tango, etc. Higher end vintage units can deliver bang for your buck eg Denon AU1000. The Zesto mentioned uses standard Jensen transformers which are very neutral, reasonable quality. Other folk consider the Llundahl transformers quite good. There are obvious other bespoke companies offering solutions - comes back to budget.

Hope this is useful for you.

Thanks very much for taking the time to look into the specs. 3 posts above I mentioned the specs of the m6 phono V4. Mine is a V2 so there could be a difference. Did the specs that you found come from a version 2 manual?  The V4 manual shows the phono at 68db and the line at 16db.  I thought I would mention this as it does change the end db figures.  I’m not sure if those numbers make a difference or not. Again thanks for the effort. 
 

I am starting to Leen the way of getting a quality multi setting SUT to allow for trying other cartridges. Any thoughts on that?

@pkvintage 

I couldn't find a manual for your v2 version on the Audionote website.

I would suggest you try your Koetsu straight into the phono without a step up and you will get a feel for how much extra gain, if any you need. If for example you have enough gain, but the volume pot is high and you are getting a high noise floor, then you would need a low gain step up - say 1:5 to 1:10.

I use to run a Koetsu black goldline straight into my modded Marantz 7 mm input at 47k, and had plenty of gain with low noise floor when I used sensitive tube power amps - eg Quicksilver monos at the time and some power amps.

These days I use a custom built current mode mc step up into the Marantz phono.

I believe Sutherland produces something similar - Sutherland SUTZ. 

I have some pretty exotic SUT's in the cupboard and none of them are as transparent as the current mode step up. I do concede though that some folk like the "sound" of a SUT - they are all different.

You could always go a buy some vintage SUT's such as the Entre ET100 at a modest price to have a play with before you spend up large

I would suggest you contact Audionote with the serial numbers of your unit sop you can confirm exactly what the specs are for your phono.

Update

So I hooked up a MM high output Grace F9 up to the M6 phono. It was far too loud. Even 1 on the dial was too loud for late night listening and four was a very uncomfortable level. Dover suggested that I hook my Koetsu black MC straight into the MM phono. So I did that and the volume is perfect. One or two on the dial for late night listing 3-4 nice comfortable daytime listing and 5 if I want to push it. So the question is did I just saved myself $5K on a SUT or am I missing something by not using an SUT. It is evident that I could undoubtedly use a low level SUT which means I could find a used Audio Note as they are usually available..

@pkvintage 

That's great info.

The Audionote SUT's are very high gain - designed for their very low output cartridges. Based on your results any SUT is probably going to result in too much gain. The AN ones will be unusable with the Koetsu.

Bottom line is - how does it sound. Are you happy. If so sit back and enjoy the system. I know a lot of people running Koetsus straight into tube MM phonos at 47k with excellent results provided there is enough gain.

Interesting options for you down the road could be cartridges around 1mv output such as the Grado Signatures, or EMT mc range which are around 1mv output.

Spend your money on records.

I spoke with Audio Note and they told me that it would be fine to run the system this way but I am leaving sound quality on the table by not matching the impedance of the Koetsu. The reason I am able to run it this way is because of the amount of gain I have in the system. The amps are 18 W, the M6 has a lot of gain, and my speakers are 98DB. The solution is to modify the amplifiers to the low gain version which is not difficult or costly. I then have to get a medium output SUT in the 15 to 20 ohm range. And here I thought I could save some money. LOL.