I finally went the SUT route for my TD124/SPU combo
II wish I would have done it sooner. I was using the phono input on my McIntosh C47 preamp for the last 3 years and was satisfied. Yesterday I added a a Japanese Entre T100 to my system and was very surprised. Many of you will already know but I’m new to the SUT game and it was a game changer.
@billstevenson : Along all those I learned the critical importance of passive devices in the overall audio item designs, devices as capacitors, resistors, fuses, power electrical connectors and the like. Examples are like these: all the power electrical system cables are hard wired directly to the boards/electrical path input and all those cables are made by silver material, my electronics has not any fuse at the lectrical power input ( yes, a little risky. ).
Certainly the best passive devices are not to use it but devices as capacitors or resistors almost always are need it. The speakers are directly tri-wired at the amplifiers outputs from each crossover filters. Yes all with silver wire including the ribbon silver inductors.
You can see in my Agon virtual system what I had in those learning times and in those pictures you can appreciate 3 TTs with 10 diferent tonearms ( I owned arond 20* ) and 10 diferent top cartridges ( I owned over 150. ).
Do you know how " discovery " the MM/MI cartridge quality levels? well that was in 2008 when I tested the first Essential 3150 with 4-5 MM/MI that I already owned but not used due that the corrupted AHEE teaches all of us that the name of the gaME IN CARTRIDGE WAS lomc ONES and that is totally false but to achieve the true MM/MI carrtridges quality real levels we need a very first rate MM phono stage and an excellent line stage that is what all Essential models have along a dedicated active higjh gain MC stage ( yes , the unit is SS . ). In all those and today days I never had/have to care about load cartridge impedance changes due that LOMC cartridge are not sensitive to that kind of load and in MM I work with 100koms instead 47kohms. Yes when I use the Denon 1000 SUT it looks 100kohms as load.
Nothing was or is at random and that's why I already understand your post: I lived the full experiences about. From there I learned about the experience to be seated at bnear field position in a live MUSIC events. First than aLL i'M A music LOVER and hardware is only a tool.
Btw, OMA does not have FR specs because almost no one " cares " about not only them that are sellers.
Dear @billstevenson : I’m not afraid, things are that almost all what yu re-marks I already do it in the last 30+ years and I learned. Even I try sevral unortodox alternatives that in theory goes against the audiophile " rules " if any.
Things over those30+ years improved in the audio world and today I know what to do and what not to do. My time ( very large times. ) of experiment or test " things " contrary to the overall believes already past. I’m calm enjoying what I learned through all those time and a lot of spended money.
From those learning times 15 years ago came the Essential 3150 SS full phonolinepream that we designed and builded followed by the 3160 and today the Essential 3180, from those learning times came our own design and builded tonearm. Today I don't have to match any cartridge with any SUT or phono stage or tonearm, yes that good are what we builded. Today I don't buy any more any top LOMC cartridge but I already tested almost all in my system coming from my friends and about cartridges almost stay with no dramatic changes over the past but new refinements of wha we normally know. Gentlemans as mijostyn still are in that learning times on cartridges but cartridges have not the last word but the overall system chain.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
If one thinks the 'Math' alone is the means to discover a device that is able to assist with producing a form of 'entertainment'. The likelihood is, the use of the Math only is dictating there is a lot of entertainment going to be overlooked, off which some discoveries not had, may be the ones that prove to excel over all others had.
Dear Raul, I consider you my friend even though we sometimes disagree strongly. I always respect your opinion. I was not offended by your remark about the Viv tonearm. I continue to enjoy mine very much.
In the world of science we are learning new things all the time. From Quantum Physics to Astonomy to medical discovery among many fields things are happening. There are all kinds of things that are not fully understood. Don't deny yourself a chance to participate just because the "facts" haven't been able to measure everything in audio yet. Experiment. Listen. Try cables, suts, other things, be open to discovery. Don't be afraid to be wrong. Explore. Discover. Have fun. Accept no limits. What you think is known is expanding all the time. Be part of it. Don't be afraid.
Dear @lewm : " VIV tonearm or Dava cartridge, I just can't " tolerate " to listen something that I know by facts measured facts that's wrong even if those generated distortions do that are wrong could be " nice " distortions. My mind works by common sense but as I said this is me. "
You are not the issue of my statement but that : " can't " tolerate " to listen something that I know by facts measured facts that's wrong "
that is the main subject and very personal but I remember mijostyn posted that he never buy a cartridge with lower tracking spec of 80u. That you been a VIV owner is not important in my post.
It was nice to see input from everyone who replied . My posts are not exciting by any standards so I appreciated the exchanges. Thank you all. This forum is a very valuable tool. I don’t post a lot but I read here every night, typically for about an hour. Again, thanks for contributing. Adrian
I added a custom Cinemag Blue SUT to my PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp and everything came to life... Kind of like 70mm Technicolor vs digital projection.....
It would seem that we have reached more agreement than difference in this matter. We both use SUTs on occasion. (BTW, you can probably find out all about the Consolidated SUT on the OMA website, mine is the silver wire version.) We both use live music as our standard. It has been a pleasure to exchange views.
The EE, who I first met to assist myself with some of my intentions for a HiFi system, and where a friendship formed, has now passed to approx' 30 years since the the inception.
Throughout this period there had been numerous opportunities to discuss sound production as a result of using electronic devices.
If a Pie Chart were to be produced to show Sound that is produced through electronic equipment, audio equipment would be a very thin slice, as the controlling measures for producing audio equipment are confining devices to conform to a particular limitation.
Other sound produced by electronic devices being used are limitless, and only constrained by the absence of a technology.
Vocalists, Musicians and Sound Engineers have been and remain on a eternal quest to create a sound that captures a individual, in the earliest of days it would be a use of Chords and Notes to the point they were unfamiliar. Today there are plug in devices and consuls filled with controls to change the basic notes.
Those who produce music pride themselves on their creativity and collaborations with others expressing creativity.
It seems a very good reason to be very welcoming towards the exploration undertaken by individuals who become known to the public and are able to supply the material to be recorded, which subsequently becomes the recorded medium that the audio enthusiast is so dependent on.
It also seems a shame that certain audio enthusiasts who make themselves known in a public domain, at times can't embrace the creativity being shared by another enthusiast.
It does seem there is an antithesis as the controlling element, where expressing a interest in a person is not part of the plan. Being insular and avoiding a collaborative engagement with another is the objective.
What is seemingly a protective stance, really does in my thoughts, lean toward the notion that such an individual believes their design for what they are achieving is absolute. This attitude may also be an indicator that if one is encouraging to another in their pursuit of being creative, it is a threat to ones own rigidity on their thought, that their way chosen, is the only way to get the best from a audio set up ??
and I have to say that I have mounted in my tonearm a LOMC cartridge with 0.1mv as output and even that my speakers has 95db 1 watt at 1 m. no noise at all. Noise floor of the system is extremely low.
@billstevenson : " Every one of these options is wonderful and they all have distortions. Don’t let anyone try to deceive you.. "
Yes, all links in an audio home system chain develops distortions. The main issue it’s not that but the level and kind of those distortions.
Live MUSIC has its own kind of " distortions " that some of them just do not like to many audiophiles: brigthness, and sometimes even hardness and others.
Listen live MUSIC seated at near field position of the MUSIC source(s) produce some of those natural MUSIC " distortions " but with out that " near field " experiences no one can understand whaT i’M TALKING ABOUT. tHE AUDIOPHILE ADJECTIVE " WARM " ALMOST DOES NOT EXIST IN LIVE music AT NEAR FIELD and not " almost " just does not exist.
Btw, @adrianleewelch Live MUSIC is accurated and accuracy surrounded live MUSIC starting with its notes where the instrument players need to " swim " with true accuracy because MUSIC is not only notes but its accurated automatic developed harmonics and certainly it’s not sterile in anyway never/ever.
I like a lot horns in the mid/high frequency with a help of a supertweeter because is the close kind of speaker that has the immediacy only live MUSIC has.
Accuracy is not enemy of live MUSIC as a fact we need an audio system with high accuracy levels to enjoy MUSIC. Our kind sound taste is a way different history where accuracy is not a main subject.
Over the years I builded a extremely accurated room/system that sounds terrific ( well which chef speaks bad of his food ) not sterile in anyway and with that immediacy and very fast transient response and dynamic power that’s what I love in live MUSIC. Yes I’m still away of the live MUSIC " scenario " but through the time a little more close. First than all like you I’m a MUSIC lover and I don’t like to " listen " my system hardware but listen and enjoy the MUSIC.
Through more than 30 years I learned from first hand experiences and from other audiophiles and even reviewers to stay where I’m. Once by around 10 years I used tube electronics till I learned, used SUTs ( just named and I owned, even I still have the Entré you own. For many years the only trusty option were the SUTs for LOMC cartridges. ) till I learned, etc. etc. Audio life is a learning life day by day, I learned a lot of my " thousands " of mistakes but now I stay HERE and follow learning.
Btw, @billstevenson , as you I still have SUTs but not phonoline preamps due that after several years and after listened the top SS phonolinepreamps we decided ( José and I ) to design and build a unique SS phonolinepreamp named Essential 3150, then improved through the 3160 and rigth now what for us is the ultimate phonolinepreamp Essential 3180.
Yesterday we were listen MUSIC at my place and used this Denon SUT along the Essential 3180 MM stage ( it has too an active high gain MC separated stage ):
btw, this unit I use hard wired with out its input/output connectors and is a formidable SUT that measured ( not by me but from an external source ) flat from 3hz to 250khz and probably the best SUT out there. How measure your made in Germany SUT?
Well, the kind and quality levels that we listenend where nothing less that amazing/outstanding MUSIC where you can’t be aware that a SUT is down there and this fact does not came by free but because the MM Essential stage is just terrific/transparent.To understand we have to live the experience to trust in what I'm posting.
Yes, my common sense let me to arrives where I’m. My taste? well my taste is live MUSIC and what surrounded it.
Not too many weeks past I was treated to a afternoon of being demo'd a system being driven by a few different Amp's (SS and Valve, along with a few CD Sources and DAC's (SS and Valve.
The event was based around helping the system owner learn if their Klipsch Jubilees were able to find better synergy from new devices in use.
When the exchanged CD > Valve DAC was added, along with a new design Korg B1 > 300b Valve Power Amp, the Jubilees become much much larger than the listening space, never have I heard such voluminous sound from a speaker outside of a Concert Venue.
There is something very attractive about the being there moment, but an honest evaluation will remind one that the experience has been with shortcomings, where was the visceral bass notes reminding one of their Celiac Plexus being in the body, and I was able to speak straight after, where usually the voice is lost for a few days. .
As I have stated in the past, sound being produced from a acoustic instrument 'is not' directional, it is a omnidirectional sound. The listener present, experiencing the the sound, will hear differing variants of the sound being produced as a result of reflections within the room changing the sound at the point it is heard. Not all in the audience will experience the same sounds.
How can being in a venue with acoustic music being produced become a faithful reproduction when a recording of the event, or something very similar as a production is heard as a directional sound presented through a speaker.
We are discussing our preferred approach to the playing of the music here. We should be adults and agree that if the elimination of as much distortion as possible were the goal (here let us ignore your frequent protests to the contrary) we would abandon the LP, the RIAA curve and all that goes with them and pursue a digital path such as DSD. No, we do not do that, so right away we are accepting that there will be distortions. Okay, let up proceed. You take one approach which for the sake of this discussion we will call a purist approach. The goal is the straightest path, with the least deviation from the RIAA curve, the flattest frequency response, the lowest distortion and do forth. Yes or no? Correct me if I am wrong. Of course I can do this too. I can haul out the two box P1 and all that. On your recommendation last year I bought a Stellar. But I also have and prefer, strongly in fact, my new C-J ACT Phono, sometimes with and sometimes without an SUT. And I accept that there might be more distortion. Maybe. I am not sure. I like the way it sounds. It sounds like my piano. Really. Nothing else sounds like my piano. It is palpable. I can feel it as well as hear it and the piano is in the same room. Yamaha C7.
My system is likely very different sounding because I use a PA style horn sub, as well as horn speakers. It sounds a lot like a small venue. When I play a record, it feels and sounds like the house of blues. My sweeps in REQ wizard are not flat. Not even close. My room treatments helped tremendously but I did not want to kill the sound. I like the live sound. It does not sound like a studio. It is not sterile. I can close my eyes and feel like I’m in the audience somewhere. This is my preferred sound. I think if I wanted 100% accuracy, I would try headphones.
Common Sense is very very egocentric and formed from environmental influences.
Why would a individual having never met traffic in any volume, have the common sense of an urban dwelling individual and use the left and right / right and Left road check rule.
How many in an urban environment have relied on the senses and been clipped or nearly clipped by a electric vehicle, to quickly learn the right and left road check is invaluable.
There are only a few references to common sense that are collective in use as the above, which are usually in place as a result of being assimilated into the collective mind set.
Mostly what one deems to be common sense is easily challenged for its being disagreeable, as some form of induction, familiarisation or training is required to create collective thought or common sense.
Much of my time can be spent carrying out inductions, familiarisation and training to generate a common sense.
The astounding thing in it all, is how many alternatives ideas are in the minds of others to achieve the common goal.
I have a indelible memory of watching on TV, a UK reporter attempting to get through a Border Crossing in the Middle East, whilst giving the narrative, the camera panned away from the reporter and followed a Pick Up Truck having passed through the Border Crossing. The captured footage was off the Load on the trucks rear bed, which was two fully grown Camels on a 6' x 5' truck bed, with no guardrails or the like in use, just the head halters tied to the bed. To the transporter a very good idea, surely common sense, Truck + Camel = Camel Transportation. Ro the average viewer witnessing this, there were numerous known options, that would be considered to be much improved.
In relation to HiFi and musical encounters of replayed recordings of music, there is no common goal, apart from the intention for selecting audio equipment to use for producing sound from a source containing recorded data. Where one chooses to get on or off the bus, is very very individual and certainly not common.
The link is a modern interpretation of 'Common Sense', created by individuals much more trained than myself to do the presentation.
Dear @billstevenson : " Who cares? All that matters in the end is the music. "
Well that depends of your MUSIC/sound priorities. I think that putting al kind of distortions in any roomsystem at minimum gives you not only MUSIC but MUSIC that is closer to the recording and closer to the live MUSIC. This is my target, but this is me-
I respect your point but I can't agree with. That's why I don't own the VIV tonearm or Dava cartridge, I just can't " tolerate " to listen something that I know by facts measured facts that's wrong even if those generated distortions do that are wrong could be " nice " distortions. My mind works by common sense but as I said this is me.
If you’re really going to purchase a new phono stage, then do consider the PS Audio Stellar, as Raul suggested. But if your proclivities are toward a “vintage” sound, then you may also want to consider a modern tube based full function preamplifier to replace both the Mac and the Project in one fell swoop. I’d consider Quicksilver, Hegerman, VAC, Audio Research, etc. Many others are good too. For accuracy, the Stellar stands out.
The conundrum is the broadness’ of individuals expressing sensitivities/bias to the impression made from the detected presence of the colouration that can generate.
The are many many electronic devices that are measured to have no seen distortion in the shape of the signal or the shape of the sound curve. The Waveform is as expected for Audio Equipment purposes.
With such equipment in use, there will be listeners who’s sensitivities/bias that is detecting a detractor. Individuals who are living a proportion of their lives being entertained through the use of audio equipment, generally keep close to them equipment that is in their assessment not classed as having noticeable detractors.
In relation to the frequencies that trigger the bias, it is each to their own on this matter.
I know through the explanation of the OP, I would find great contentment listening to my Chicago Blues Artists through their set up, as I deliberately add colour to my own system for these periods set aside for listening to this genre.
Alternatively it is this colour added, that is the one that has the Amygdala produce the chemical reactions that seem most rewarding, especially when present in conjunction with recollected experiences.
Math is everything, it explains much, but for most, is a subject not interrogated to be understood, it is entity that is present and trusted.
The Math in Electronics/Physics is only one element to the equation, there is also the Math belonging to the Chemistry in the Human that has equal importance.
Multi Trillions of Chemical Reactions occur within a Human Body daily, of which how many trillions relate to being in a particular environment and having a reaction to it will be a unknown.
It will be a very weak case to suggest there is a single math formula, especially relating to Electronics Math Equation, that is the correct approach to be produce individuals that are equally stimulated by the end product.
It is the variety of Electronic/Physical Math that is to be encountered and is also required to influence harmoniously with the uniqueness of the Biomathematics taking place in each individual.
Forums do have a element of discussion, where an individual shares with a context, that is suggesting their way is without doubt the better path chosen.
This narrow field of view seemingly completely overlooks the uniqueness of each individual and how they relate to sound on a particular environment, especially sound produced in a unique space as a result of using an audio system.
This is an interesting discussion. I generally like the sound of the distortions added when an SUT is inserted into the chain, but find that there is no universal truth. Of course adding one requires an additional set of phono cables and that can add a considerable expense. My best SUT, a Consolidated made in Germany, cost several thousand dollars. At the moment it is not in use. That is not sensible. On the other hand, I have several phono stages not in use right now either, such as the one discussed here from PS Audio, and one from Switzerland that cost close to $50k a decade or more ago according the guy who I got it from. All boat anchors right now. Currently I am listening to the new Conrad Johnson ART Phono. Every one of these options is wonderful and they all have distortions. Don't let anyone try to deceive you. My advice with respect to any option is to try it and let your own ears tell you what sounds best to you. Everything will have some distortion. Who cares? All that matters in the end is the music.
I’m following along. As pleased as I am currently, I think my next upgrade is the phono stage for sure. My turntables are 100% restored, my cartridges are where I want to be. My flea watt amps get too loud for my heavily treated room. I have a 21” horn sub, a PB16 ultra, and 3 sets of Altec speakers with custom crossovers. Being an underpaid Paramedic only allows me to spend about 10K annually on this hobby including record purchases. I’ll likely make a move on a phono stage late summer this year. I’d probably spend 3-4K realistically. Any more may not be appreciated at my mid-fi level of everything else but that is my plan today. I just need to continue to study so that I make a good choice. As with a lot of things, I can’t afford an expensive one twice. The pro-ject cost me one 12 hour shift so it was a fair trade. In my ignorance I thought the Mac was IT ! lol. I’m learning. Thank you all.
Raul, I read the Stellar review. It seems to be superb. I’d recommend it to anyone interested in a new phono stage. The OP does not seem to be interested in a new phono stage. That was my point. It doesn’t help to respond to a question regarding implementation of existing gear by saying the inquirer should ditch his gear and by something else entirely, in my opinion. Apparently you and Mijo think differently. That’s fine by me. But don’t you think your approach might alienate newbies?
I don’t know all of the science for sure but one thing I do know with absolute certainty is that on my MOFI copy of Dire Straits Communique, which I have listened to more than any record that I own, I’m hearing fingertips on fretboards and nuances that I did not detect in the past. It likely wasn’t a volume or sensitivity issue. The A5s are sensitive. I sometimes use a 100wpc solid state amp instead of my little 2A3s, I THINK the SUT is revealing more, at least compared to my inboard phono pre. I’m going to do an extended listening session tonight. The blue note collection is coming out.
Because an individual has a preference for a particular and perceivable tone, as a blend for a sound being produced, is certainly not a limitation of ones capability to hear. .
The Sound interaction had is quite controlled by the brains Amygdala.
As many reactions are also based on environmental interactions, where sound, sight and smell are influencers, the individual reacting to the stimulus triggered by the sensory perception and chemical reactions sent from the Amygdala through the Limbic is what mould a personal preference.
“When you feel shivers go down your spine, the amygdala is activated.”
Don't let anybody attempt to convince another, that what is the trigger for their stimulus when it comes to sound produced via electronic audio equipment is the correct medicine for another, hence most time served audio enthusiasts do not share systems that are identical.
Some use SUT's others Head Amps and others Viv Tonearms or SME 3012's.
“When your Cheshire Cat grin becomes fixed, the Amygdala is activated and the Limbic System is functioning healthily.”
It is this healthy function and the release of chemicals causing such a positivity of emotion, that enables the experience had, to be referred to as a form of entertainment.
Obviously there is not a Electronics equation that caters for all as a ubiquitous formula to feel entertained to ones own special preference.
Dear @lewm : It's obvious that you never read the Stellar review I linked where the reviewer compared it to a 30K+ phono stages.
The " raining " in the @adrianleewelch parade is because the PS Adio is better than the Project too and way better that any SUT.
Btw, @mulveling " SUT sounds like "music" and further differentiates vinyl’s sound away from digital. ":
I'm not against you but your statement is only what you like and not what is rigth. You like SUT's thanks to its higher developed distortions and it's not your fault. Issue is that our ears perception are way tolerant in different kind of distortions, the VIV tonearm is an example how tolerant ( it can't discriminates ) to higher distortions are the owners ears and again no fault in those owners: that's what that's, ears limitations.
Welcome to the SUT experience! IMO a good SUT sounds like "music" and further differentiates vinyl’s sound away from digital.
There are many different SUTs, each with their own distinct sonic character. Choosing the right ratio for a given cartridge is extremely important - much more than loading considerations. SUTs with 2 or more taps are very handy. My general-purpose favorite SUT is the EAR (MC-3 and MC-4; 3 and 4 taps respectively).
There is perhaps even more variance in the sound of various MC pre-preamp stages/SUTs that there is with RIAA MM stage - though the latter is crucially important as well.
JFET (voltage) pre-preamps can also be excellent in the right setup. But most of them tend to sound more "sterile" than SUTs. I like Jim Hagerman’s various Piccolos because they sound good and are cheap, at the expense of a bit higher noise floor (not problematic IMO). Most are JFET (voltage) based but he just added a Piccolo Zero model that is trans-impedance (current) based. I have one on order to try :)
A “head amp” or “pre-preamp” is simply a linear active gain stage to boost the cartridge output so the ensemble can then drive an MM stage. If you start with a high gain MC phono stage, there’s no role for a head amp. And a head amp, like a SUT, requires the insertion of additional connectors and cables in the signal path.
There is no real sound benefit from a SUT, a Phonostage is very very capable of presenting a recording in a away that is satisfying for numerous listeners.
A SUT 'will' add a Richness in Tone to a replay when used as a comparison to a typical MC Stage.
SUT's are generic in their voicing, the Rich Tone being perceived can be scaled from a Hint of Richness ( a tight fast decaying Bass Note is maintained, maybe a little underpinned with weight) through to a Very Noticeable ( very loose Bass Notes with a extended presence, possibly, depending on the individual listener, this Bass Type treks toward the point of being overbearing).
A Head Amp of the designs I have heard in comparison to a SUT, can be described as being leaner in the voicing than the leanest SUT types. A Head Amp can be more in liking to a MC Stage.
To date, as a personal experience, I have not discovered a Phonostage that has been encouraging enough, to not use the options for voicing a Cart's produced sound via a SUT or Head Amp.
I have the VDH Grail SB “current” phono preamp, so trying out a SUT would require an “voltage” phono preamp. I have a few Ortofon SPUs and 2 Koetsu carts- was wondering if I should try SUTs - what’s the sonic benefit?
@adrianleewelch You have now worn your desire for a Rich Tone to be produced very clear.
A SUT in use will reinforce this, experiencing different SUT's will aid one in finding the influence of a SUT that is most attractive to a personal preference.
A SUT I would not normally recommend due it having a notable Rich Tone, is a Audio Innovations 800 or 1000 model. For your own purposes this model might be Rich in Tone Nirvana.
Well I suspected that the McIntosh phono stage left something to be desired. It was proven when the project bested it. This was an experiment in SUT and phono stages. I got all of them cheap enough that I won’t lose any money when I sell. I hoped to learn what to purchase for my keeper setup. Between the knowledge gained in this thread, plus my own observations from listening I should be able to make an informed decision when I get something better. As far as cantilevers and stylus go, soundsmith has built 2 of my carts with boron cantilevers and micro line diamonds. The purpose of the Spherical and conical styluses was not necessarily in pursuit of perfection. Maby more about period correctness and enjoying vintage sound. I have a TD124, with 12” Ortofon arm and an SME, using 2A3 mono blocks, through Altec A5s. All of my gear in that chain is from the 60s except for the Mac preamp because I wanted a remote control. Maby it’s not hifi but I sure love it 😃. I appreciate all comments and thank you for taking time to read it. Time is valuable and I appreciate yours. Adrian
Raul, I don’t know if the Project phono is better than the Mac phono built into the OP’s C47, but in any case he’s using the Project for phono gain and RIAA, not the Mac. And I don’t see the point in raining on his parade. Nor does his budget appear to allow for a Lino C phono stage. He came here for a little SUT education. I hope he got it. With all his gear, knowledge of the art is indispensable.
Unfortunately, Raul is correct. Your best way forward would be with a dedicated phono stage. You might also want to look at the Channel D Lino C, it is a killer phono stage for the price. Transformers can do very well if they are installed inside the unit, no ICs. In Macs there usually is not enough room,
I might also add for the future that the performance of a cartridge is greatly enhance by the type of stylus used. You never see conical or elliptical styluses in high end cartridges. The best are the fine line contact designs like the Soundsmith OC-CL, the Gyger S and the Replicant 100. When looking for a cartridge at a reasonable price find the ones that have the same features as the best like boron cantilevers and fine line styluses. A good examples would be the Goldring 1042 and the Nagaoka MP 500. Just install the new cartridge in the SPU's head shell and your brain will think you have a classic:-)
Dear @adrianleewelch : " new to the SUT game and it was a game changer. "
Well, with the SUT you are adding " new " distortions that came from the additional IC input/output RCA connectors along the cable and solder joints plus the distortions developed by the SUT transformers.
Your McIntosh unit has not high quality phono stages, it's " so so ".
Maybe could be a good alternative to own a new dedicated phono stage as the PS Audio Stellar model that's not to expensive. You could try and maybe you can find out a true game high quality changer. Yes, you need those addituional IC to connect in the C47. This is that unit, please read it including its real time measurements:
Now, if you decide not to go with that alternative then you can improve the sound quality performance rewiring internally ( for better quality wire. ) the Entré SUT and changing all its input/output RCA connectors.
Sorry, I am not steeped in knowledge of the SPU series and so did not realize what you were talking about. With the Synergy (0.5 mV), you definitely do not need the 60db gain setting. Even 50db is slight overkill with a 1:10 SUT. For example, with the SUT the cartridge, and SUT are dumping 5 mV of output into the phono inputs. That is the typical output of a high output moving magnet cartridge. With such a cartridge, usually only 40 to 45 DB of phono gain, along with line stage gain, are more than adequate.
Hey Lewm ! Yes your assumptions were correct as you described my signal path. Let me add some information that may clarify some things. I do have an SPU Synergy, an SPU Century 100th anniversary model, then the #1 spherical and #1 elliptical. I also own a sumiko blackbird MC cart as well as an Audio technica OC9XML. I listed all of them because I have 3 turntables and one of them has 2 arms. I typically listen to the SPU synergy but it could possibly be any of the other carts. That’s why I tried the Entre SUT since it gave me choices. Also that Pro-ject tube box has multiple gain settings from 40db, to 65db, in 5 db increments. Fortunately the synergy and both of the #1 carts weigh the same so they swap easily. The century model is heavier and requires rebalancing of the arm. I guess the oddball is the Synergy with its higher output at .5. Maby that will clarify my earlier posts. When I find my favorite combo, I’ll likely leave it there and maby rotate carts every month or two. Adrian
Adrian, In your last post you name 3 cartridges, none of which is identifiable as an Ortofon SPU, unless it’s “#1”. Then you don’t say whether my own assumptions of the current setup are correct. If you want commentary you need to be very specific.Not surprised that the earlier setup was grossly distorted. Also are you sure your phono offers 60 and even 65db gain in MM mode, where the cartridge or the SUT sees a 47K ohm impedance?
@lewm The synergy cartridge is .5mv, whereas the century is .2, and the #1 carts are .18 When I first tried it, I had the SUT on 3, and the Pro-next on 65 and i literally thought I blew my speakers it was so distorted. At 10 ohms and 60 db my volume knob is at 25% to get 90db at my chair. It used to need to be at 35-40. Do you still suggest I go down to 50db gain ??
I’ve been using the jensen isomax mc-2rr sut with my denon dl 103 connected to my tavish classic tube phono stage into its mm input. Turntable Is the thorens td 1500, sounds fantastic.
Adrian, do I understand correctly that your using an Ortofon SPU cartridge into a 10 ohm SUT into the Project phono MM inputs with phono gain set at 60 db, then into the Mac linestage? The SPU makes 0.2mV. Assuming your SUT steps up signal voltage by 1:10, that means 2mV into the Project. 60 db gain equates to a voltage gain of 1000. So the Project drives the Mac linestage with a nominal signal voltage of 2V, which is already enough to drive any typical amplifier to full output. But most active linestages add additional gain, like 10-20db. Is your volume control nearly fully to the left? In any case, try the 50 db gain setting on the Project.
@elliott your reply was extremely informative though. I appreciate you sir !! I always stayed away from SUTs because I didn’t understand the math and the best way to match them with my cart. I have a sumiko blackbird, Ortofon SPU century, synergy, #1s, #1e, and an AT OC9XML I bought the Entre plus a FR3 so I could experiment with different settings to see what I like best. I haven’t even hooked up the Fidelity Research yet. It seems like the Entre will cover the range of carts I have from .18 up to .6. The internal impedances vary quite a bit also but the 3 and 10 ohm settings both work well unless I use the 3 ohm setting on the .5mv cart. It was extremely overdriven and distorted. This is a fun experiment for sure.
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