SUT experience

Using an Ortofon SPU synergy at the 10 ohm setting through a Pro-ject tube box sounds a lot better through my line stage than my MC input ever sounded 

Tighter bass and extended highs were the immediate improvements but soundstage is huge now

👍

@adrianleewelch It is good to see the positive impression made from your making the experience of a SUT a realised encounter. I constantly share in these forums talking/reading is weak as a means to assess, direct experience "sitting in front off a item of interest", and witnessing it in use is the real foundation to satisfying decision making.

I'm not using the same Cart' as yours, but do use the same Brand, with same model Cart's, in use as rebuilt as a redesign and as the original design.

I have not experienced a Cart' in my system that did not become more attractive to my listening preferences without a SUT or Head Amp in use.

'More Attractive' is a personal mind set, my owned Phon's are more than capable of producing sound that is very very pleasing.   

Nice to read that ET-100 SUT sounds good, I often recommend it based on it’s features: PASS for MM, 3 optional impedances/transformer windings, and 3 tonearm inputs front selectable, but never heard one.

Often available on hifishark, here’s one on eBay for $370. free shipping, 30 day returns

 

Like you, I was new to MC and SUT’s, I chose Fidelity Research FRT-4, similar features, usually cost more than the Entre, also 30 day return

 

SUT’s are Passive, no power needed, and actually are designed to deliver an unchanged but amplified signal by one of the SUT transformer’s windings to your MM Phono Stage. Each SUT winding has an x factor of amplification and resultant impedance load.

Your Ortofon SPU MC cartridge’s signal strength is low 0.2mv, it would benefit by an x factor about 20, i.e. boosted to around 4.0 mv.

......................................

Something is unclear.

McIntosh C27 has only MM phono Inputs (2) (no MC capability), The MM input/the C27 phono stage perform the RIAA Equalization. Those MM Phono inputs are sensitive to minimum 2.0 mv. 10 times your cartridge’s signal strength (see pg 11)

 

SUTs Amplify, but do NOT modify the signal, the boosted signal still needs RIAA EQ.

Either a separate MC Phono Stage with RIAA Eq. (you did not mention),

OR, your C27’s MM Phono’s RIAA EQ. A separate Phono Stage optionally may/can perform RIAA EQ, in which case you use a LINE Level Input on a preamp/integrated.

..........................................................

Is it possible you were running your MC cartridge’s 0.2 mv signal to the C27’s MM Phono EQ Input? If so, no wonder it did not sound great, and your Preamp’s Volume Control and Amp’s Volume would have to be near maximum.

IF you are now running the SUT’s output to the C27’s MM Phono Input, then the C27 is receiving enough signal strength to do it’s job well, it is doing the RIAA EQ, and the sound character of the C27 should be the same, but much improved by the 'strong enough' signal strength, volume controls down into the range where they are much quieter.

IF you are running your SUT’s output to one of the C27’s Line inputs, then RIAA is NOT happening, thus the signal to the amp would have it’s highs boosted and it’s bass cut, definitely wrong.

.............................................................

btw, I had a McIntosh SS C28 Preamp, I DID NOT like it’s MM Phono Input’s sound, actually preferred the optional Phono EQ built into the Audio Technica AT120 TT, then into Line Level. Even a $14. Pyle MM Phono EQ to Line Level sounded better.

The preamp is a C47, not a 27.  It’s a modern unit

Oh yea I mentioned earlier im using a project tube box MM phono pre at 60db gain into the line level input of the Mac.  I want a better standalone phono preamp after I know with certainty what features I want. The pro-next was an inexpensive way to test the waters. 

adrianleewelch OP

"The preamp is a C47, not a 27. It’s a modern unit"

What Saturday Night Live character said "nevermind"?

Perhaps someone following along will benefit from my error and yap.

@elliott your reply was extremely informative though. I appreciate you sir !! I always stayed away from SUTs because I didn’t understand the math and the best way to match them with my cart.  I have a sumiko blackbird, Ortofon SPU century, synergy, #1s, #1e, and an AT OC9XML   I bought the Entre plus a FR3 so I could experiment with different settings to see what I like best. I haven’t even hooked up the Fidelity Research yet. It seems like the Entre will cover the range of carts I have from .18 up to .6.  The internal impedances vary quite a bit also but the 3 and 10 ohm settings both work well unless I use the 3 ohm setting on the .5mv cart.  It was extremely overdriven and distorted.  This is a fun experiment for sure.  

Adrian, do I understand correctly that your using an Ortofon SPU cartridge into a 10 ohm SUT into the Project phono MM inputs with phono gain set at 60 db, then into the Mac linestage? The SPU makes 0.2mV. Assuming your SUT steps up signal voltage by 1:10, that means 2mV into the Project. 60 db gain equates to a voltage gain of 1000. So the Project drives the Mac linestage with a nominal signal voltage of 2V, which is already enough to drive any typical amplifier to full output. But most active linestages add additional gain, like 10-20db. Is your volume control nearly fully to the left? In any case, try the 50 db gain setting on the Project.

I’ve been using the jensen isomax mc-2rr sut with my denon dl 103 connected to my tavish classic tube phono stage into its mm input. Turntable Is the thorens td 1500, sounds fantastic.

@lewm   The synergy cartridge is .5mv, whereas the century is .2, and the #1 carts are .18    When I first tried it, I had the SUT on 3, and the Pro-next on 65 and i literally thought I blew my speakers it was so distorted.  At 10 ohms and 60 db my volume knob is at 25% to get 90db at my chair.  It used to need to be at 35-40.  Do you still suggest I go down to 50db gain ??  

I don’t know why it keeps auto correcting the Pro-Ject to Pro-next.  I swear I’m literate. 😵‍💫

Adrian, In your last post you name 3 cartridges, none of which is identifiable as an Ortofon SPU, unless it’s “#1”. Then you don’t say whether my own assumptions of the current setup are correct. If you want commentary you need to be very specific.Not surprised that the earlier setup was grossly distorted. Also are you sure your phono offers 60 and even 65db gain in MM mode, where the cartridge or the SUT sees a 47K ohm impedance?

Hey Lewm ! Yes your assumptions were correct as you described my signal path. Let me add some information that may clarify some things. I do have an SPU Synergy, an SPU Century 100th anniversary model, then the #1 spherical and #1 elliptical.  I also own a sumiko blackbird MC cart as well as an Audio technica OC9XML.  I listed all of them because I have 3 turntables and one of them has 2 arms. I typically listen to the SPU synergy but it could possibly be any of the other carts. That’s why I tried the Entre SUT since it gave me choices.  Also that Pro-ject tube box has multiple gain settings from 40db, to 65db, in 5 db increments. Fortunately the synergy and both of the #1 carts weigh the same so they swap easily.  The century model is heavier and requires rebalancing of the arm.  I guess the oddball is the Synergy with its higher output at .5.  Maby that will clarify my earlier posts. When I find my favorite combo, I’ll likely leave it there and maby rotate carts every month or two.  Adrian

Sorry, I am not steeped in knowledge of the SPU series and so did not realize what you were talking about. With the Synergy (0.5 mV), you definitely do not need the 60db gain setting. Even 50db is slight overkill with a 1:10 SUT. For example, with the SUT the cartridge, and SUT are dumping 5 mV of output into the phono inputs. That is the typical output of a high output moving magnet cartridge. With such a cartridge, usually only 40 to 45 DB of phono gain, along with line stage gain, are more than adequate.

nevermind was Gilda Radnor's bit 

 

Dear @adrianleewelch  : " new to the SUT game and it was a game changer. "

Well, with the SUT you are adding " new " distortions that came from the additional IC input/output RCA connectors along the cable and solder joints plus the distortions developed by the SUT transformers.

Your McIntosh  unit has not high quality phono stages, it's " so so ".

Maybe could be a good alternative to own a new dedicated  phono stage as the PS Audio Stellar model that's not to expensive. You could try and maybe you can find out a true game high quality changer. Yes, you need those addituional IC to connect in the C47. This is that unit, please read it including its real time measurements:

 

Now, if you decide not to go with that alternative then you can improve the sound quality performance rewiring internally ( for better quality wire. ) the Entré SUT and changing all its input/output RCA connectors.

 

Regardas and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

r.

Wow @rauliruegas , that was really popping the OPs balloon. @adrianleewelch 

Unfortunately, Raul is correct. Your best way forward would be with a dedicated phono stage. You might also want to look at the Channel D Lino C, it is a killer phono stage for the price. Transformers can do very well if they are installed inside the unit, no ICs. In Macs there usually is not enough room,

I might also add for the future that the performance of a cartridge is greatly enhance by the type of stylus used. You never see conical or elliptical styluses in high end cartridges. The best are the fine line contact designs like the Soundsmith OC-CL, the Gyger S and the Replicant 100. When looking for a cartridge at a reasonable price find the ones that have the same features as the best like boron cantilevers and fine line styluses. A good examples would be the Goldring 1042 and the Nagaoka MP 500. Just install the new cartridge in the SPU's head shell and your brain will think you have a classic:-)

Gilda as Roseann Roseannadanna.

Raul, I don’t know if the Project phono is better than the Mac phono built into the OP’s C47, but in any case he’s using the Project for phono gain and RIAA, not the Mac. And I don’t see the point in raining on his parade. Nor does his budget appear to allow for a Lino C phono stage. He came here for a little SUT education. I hope he got it. With all his gear, knowledge of the art is indispensable.

Well I suspected that the McIntosh phono stage left something to be desired. It was proven when the project bested it. This was an experiment in SUT and phono stages.  I got all of them cheap enough that I won’t lose any money when I sell. I hoped to learn what to purchase for my keeper setup. Between the knowledge gained in this thread, plus my own observations from listening I should be able to make an informed decision when I get something better.  As far as cantilevers and stylus go, soundsmith has built 2 of my carts with boron cantilevers and micro line diamonds. The purpose of the Spherical and conical styluses was not necessarily in pursuit of perfection. Maby more about period correctness and enjoying vintage sound.  I have a TD124, with 12” Ortofon arm and an SME, using 2A3 mono blocks, through Altec A5s. All of my gear in that chain is from the 60s except for the Mac preamp because I wanted a remote control. Maby it’s not hifi but I sure love it 😃.  I appreciate all comments and thank you for taking time to read it. Time is valuable and I appreciate yours.   Adrian

@adrianleewelch You have now worn your desire for a Rich Tone to be produced very clear. 

A SUT in use will reinforce this, experiencing different SUT's will aid one in finding the influence of a SUT that is most attractive to a personal preference. 

A SUT I would not normally recommend due it having a notable Rich Tone, is a Audio Innovations 800 or 1000 model. For your own purposes this model might be Rich in Tone Nirvana. 

I have the VDH Grail SB “current” phono preamp, so trying out a SUT would require an “voltage” phono preamp.  I have a few Ortofon SPUs and 2 Koetsu carts- was wondering if I should try SUTs - what’s the sonic benefit?  

There is no real sound benefit from a SUT, a Phonostage is very very capable of presenting a recording in a away that is satisfying for numerous listeners.

A SUT 'will' add a Richness in Tone to a replay when used as a comparison to a typical MC Stage.

SUT's are generic in their voicing, the Rich Tone being perceived can be scaled from a Hint of Richness ( a tight fast decaying Bass Note is maintained, maybe a little underpinned with weight) through to a Very Noticeable ( very loose Bass Notes with a extended presence, possibly, depending on the individual listener, this Bass Type treks toward the point of being overbearing).

A Head Amp of the designs I have heard in comparison to a SUT, can be described as being leaner in the voicing than the leanest SUT types. A Head Amp can be more in liking to a MC Stage.

To date, as a personal experience, I have not discovered a Phonostage that has been encouraging enough, to not use the options for voicing a Cart's produced sound via a SUT or Head Amp.      

A “head amp” or “pre-preamp” is simply a linear active gain stage to boost the cartridge output so the ensemble can then drive an MM stage. If you start with a high gain MC phono stage, there’s no role for a head amp. And a head amp, like a SUT, requires the insertion of additional connectors and cables in the signal path.

Correction Required

My statement should have been,  " SUT's are not generic in their voicing, "

 

Welcome to the SUT experience! IMO a good SUT sounds like "music" and further differentiates vinyl’s sound away from digital.

There are many different SUTs, each with their own distinct sonic character. Choosing the right ratio for a given cartridge is extremely important - much more than loading considerations. SUTs with 2 or more taps are very handy. My general-purpose favorite SUT is the EAR (MC-3 and MC-4; 3 and 4 taps respectively).

There is perhaps even more variance in the sound of various MC pre-preamp stages/SUTs that there is with RIAA MM stage - though the latter is crucially important as well.

JFET (voltage) pre-preamps can also be excellent in the right setup. But most of them tend to sound more "sterile" than SUTs. I like Jim Hagerman’s various Piccolos because they sound good and are cheap, at the expense of a bit higher noise floor (not problematic IMO). Most are JFET (voltage) based but he just added a Piccolo Zero model that is trans-impedance (current) based. I have one on order to try :)

Dear @lewm  : It's obvious that you never read the Stellar review I linked where the reviewer compared it to a 30K+ phono stages.

The " raining " in the @adrianleewelch  parade is because the PS Adio is better than the Project too and way better that any SUT.

 

Btw, @mulveling   " SUT sounds like "music" and further differentiates vinyl’s sound away from digital. ":

I'm not against you but your statement is only what you like and not what is rigth. You like SUT's thanks to its higher developed distortions and it's not your fault. Issue is that our ears perception are way tolerant in different kind of distortions, the VIV tonearm is an example how tolerant ( it can't discriminates ) to higher distortions are the owners ears and again no fault in those owners: that's what that's, ears limitations.

 

R.

 

 

 

Because an individual has a preference for a particular and perceivable tone, as a blend for a sound being produced, is certainly not a limitation of ones capability to hear. .    

The Sound interaction had is quite controlled by the brains Amygdala.

As many reactions are also based on environmental interactions, where sound, sight and smell are influencers, the individual reacting to the stimulus triggered by the sensory perception and chemical reactions sent from the Amygdala through the Limbic is what mould a personal preference.

“When you feel shivers go down your spine, the amygdala is activated.”

Don't let anybody attempt to convince another, that what is the trigger for their stimulus when it comes to sound produced via electronic audio equipment is the correct medicine for another, hence most time served audio enthusiasts do not share systems that are identical. 

Some use SUT's others Head Amps and others Viv Tonearms or SME 3012's.    

 “When your Cheshire Cat grin becomes fixed, the Amygdala is activated and the Limbic System is functioning healthily.”

It is this healthy function and the release of chemicals causing such a positivity of emotion, that enables the experience had, to be referred to as a form of entertainment.

Obviously there is not a Electronics equation that caters for all as a ubiquitous formula to feel entertained to ones own special preference. 

I don’t know all of the science for sure but one thing I do know with absolute certainty is that on my MOFI copy of Dire Straits Communique, which I have listened to more than any record that I own, I’m hearing fingertips on fretboards and nuances that I did not detect in the past. It likely wasn’t a volume or sensitivity issue. The A5s are sensitive. I sometimes use a 100wpc solid state amp instead of my little 2A3s, I THINK the SUT is revealing more, at least compared to my inboard phono pre.  I’m going to do an extended listening session tonight. The blue note collection is coming out.  

Raul, I read the Stellar review. It seems to be superb. I’d recommend it to anyone interested in a new phono stage. The OP does not seem to be interested in a new phono stage. That was my point. It doesn’t help to respond to a question regarding implementation of existing gear by saying the inquirer should ditch his gear and by something else entirely, in my opinion. Apparently you and Mijo think differently. That’s fine by me. But don’t you think your approach might alienate newbies?

I’m following along. As pleased as I am currently, I think my next upgrade is the phono stage for sure. My turntables are 100% restored, my cartridges are where I want to be. My flea watt amps get too loud for my heavily treated room.  I have a 21” horn sub, a PB16 ultra, and 3 sets of Altec speakers with custom crossovers. Being an underpaid Paramedic only allows me to spend about 10K annually on this hobby including record purchases. I’ll likely make a move on a phono stage late summer this year. I’d probably spend 3-4K realistically. Any more may not be appreciated at my mid-fi level of everything else but that is my plan today. I just need to continue to study so that I make a good choice.  As with a lot of things, I can’t afford an expensive one twice.  The pro-ject cost me one 12 hour shift so it was a fair trade. In my ignorance I thought the Mac was IT !  lol. I’m learning.  Thank you all. 

This is an interesting discussion.  I generally like the sound of the distortions added when an SUT is inserted into the chain, but find that there is no universal truth.  Of course adding one requires an additional set of phono cables and that can add a considerable expense.  My best SUT, a Consolidated made in Germany, cost several thousand dollars.  At the moment it is not in use.  That is not sensible.  On the other hand, I have several phono stages not in use right now either, such as the one discussed here from PS Audio, and one from Switzerland that cost close to $50k a decade or more ago according the guy who I got it from.  All boat anchors right now.  Currently I am listening to the new Conrad Johnson ART Phono.  Every one of these options is wonderful and they all have distortions.  Don't let anyone try to deceive you.  My advice with respect to any option is to try it and let your own ears tell you what sounds best to you.  Everything will have some distortion.  Who cares?  All that matters in the end is the music.

Exactly.  As I sit here listening, I try to listen to the music and not the equipment but we all know that is hard to do 

Distortion will be Detraction.

The conundrum is the broadness’ of individuals expressing sensitivities/bias to the impression made from the detected presence of the colouration that can generate.

The are many many electronic devices that are measured to have no seen distortion in the shape of the signal or the shape of the sound curve. The Waveform is as expected for Audio Equipment purposes.

With such equipment in use, there will be listeners who’s sensitivities/bias that is detecting a detractor. Individuals who are living a proportion of their lives being entertained through the use of audio equipment, generally keep close to them equipment that is in their assessment not classed as having noticeable detractors.

In relation to the frequencies that trigger the bias, it is each to their own on this matter.

I know through the explanation of the OP, I would find great contentment listening to my Chicago Blues Artists through their set up, as I deliberately add colour to my own system for these periods set aside for listening to this genre.

Alternatively it is this colour added, that is the one that has the Amygdala produce the chemical reactions that seem most rewarding, especially when present in conjunction with recollected experiences.

Math is everything, it explains much, but for most, is a subject not interrogated to be understood, it is entity that is present and trusted.

The Math in Electronics/Physics is only one element to the equation, there is also the Math belonging to the Chemistry in the Human that has equal importance.

Multi Trillions of Chemical Reactions occur within a Human Body daily, of which how many trillions relate to being in a particular environment and having a reaction to it will be a unknown.

It will be a very weak case to suggest there is a single math formula, especially relating to Electronics Math Equation, that is the correct approach to be produce individuals that are equally stimulated by the end product.

It is the variety of Electronic/Physical Math that is to be encountered and is also required to influence harmoniously with the uniqueness of the Biomathematics taking place in each individual.

Forums do have a element of discussion, where an individual shares with a context, that is suggesting their way is without doubt the better path chosen.

This narrow field of view seemingly completely overlooks the uniqueness of each individual and how they relate to sound on a particular environment, especially sound produced in a unique space as a result of using an audio system. 

 

If you’re really going to purchase a new phono stage, then do consider the PS Audio Stellar, as Raul suggested. But if your proclivities are toward a “vintage” sound, then you may also want to consider a modern tube based full function preamplifier to replace both the Mac and the Project in one fell swoop. I’d consider Quicksilver, Hegerman, VAC, Audio Research, etc. Many others are good too. For accuracy, the Stellar stands out.

Dear @billstevenson  : " Who cares?  All that matters in the end is the music. "

Well that depends of your MUSIC/sound priorities. I think that putting al kind of distortions in any roomsystem at minimum gives you not only MUSIC but MUSIC that is closer to the recording and closer to the live MUSIC. This is my target, but this is me-

I respect your point but I can't agree with. That's why I don't own the VIV tonearm or Dava cartridge, I just can't " tolerate " to listen something that I know by facts measured facts that's wrong even if those generated distortions do that are wrong could be " nice " distortions. My mind works by common sense but as I said this is me.

 

R.

 

Common Sense is very very egocentric and formed from environmental influences.

Why would a individual having never met traffic in any volume, have the common sense of an urban dwelling individual and use the left and right / right and Left road check rule. 

How many in an urban environment have relied on the senses and been clipped or nearly clipped by a electric vehicle, to quickly learn the right and left road check is invaluable.

There are only a few references to common sense that are collective in use as the  above, which are usually in place as a result of being assimilated into the collective mind set.

Mostly what one deems to be common sense is easily challenged for its being disagreeable, as some form of induction, familiarisation or training is required to create collective thought or common sense.

Much of my time can be spent carrying out inductions, familiarisation and training to generate a common sense.

The astounding thing in it all, is how many alternatives ideas are in the minds of others to achieve the common goal. 

I have a indelible memory of watching on TV, a UK reporter attempting to get through a Border Crossing in the Middle East, whilst giving the narrative, the camera panned away from the reporter and followed a Pick Up Truck having passed through the Border Crossing. The captured footage was off the Load on the trucks rear bed, which was two fully grown Camels on a 6' x 5' truck bed, with no guardrails or the like in use, just the head halters tied to the bed. To the transporter a very good idea, surely common sense, Truck + Camel = Camel Transportation. Ro the average viewer witnessing this, there were numerous known options, that would be considered to be much improved.  

In relation to HiFi and musical encounters of replayed recordings of music, there is no common goal, apart from the intention for selecting audio equipment to use for producing sound from a source containing recorded data. Where one chooses to get on or off the bus, is very very individual and certainly not common. 

The link is a modern interpretation of 'Common Sense', created by individuals much more trained than myself to do the presentation.

 

 

 

 

make their findings kn

own.

     

My system is likely very different sounding because I use a PA style horn sub, as well as horn speakers. It sounds a lot like a small venue. When I play a record, it feels and sounds like the house of blues. My sweeps in REQ wizard are not flat. Not even close. My room treatments helped tremendously but I did not want to kill the sound. I like the live sound. It does not sound like a studio. It is not sterile. I can close my eyes and feel like I’m in the audience somewhere. This is my preferred sound. I think if I wanted 100% accuracy, I would try headphones. 

Raul,

We are discussing our preferred approach to the playing of the music here.  We should be adults and agree that if the elimination of as much distortion as possible were the goal (here let us ignore your frequent protests to the contrary) we would abandon the LP, the RIAA curve and all that goes with them and pursue a digital path such as DSD.  No, we do not do that, so right away we are accepting that there will be distortions.  Okay, let up proceed.  You take one approach which for the sake of this discussion we will call a purist approach.  The goal is the straightest path, with the least deviation from the RIAA curve, the flattest frequency response, the lowest distortion and do forth.  Yes or no?  Correct me if I am wrong.  Of course I can do this too.  I can haul out the two box P1 and all that.  On your recommendation last year I bought a Stellar.  But I also have and prefer, strongly in fact, my new C-J ACT Phono, sometimes with and sometimes without an SUT.  And I accept that there might be more distortion.  Maybe.  I am not sure.  I like the way it sounds.  It sounds like my piano.  Really.  Nothing else sounds like my piano.  It is palpable.  I can feel it as well as hear it and the piano is in the same room.  Yamaha C7.

Not too many weeks past I was treated to a afternoon of being demo'd a system being driven by a few different Amp's (SS and Valve, along with a few CD Sources and DAC's (SS and Valve.

The event was based around helping the system owner learn if their Klipsch Jubilees were able to find better synergy from new devices in use.

When the exchanged CD > Valve DAC was added, along with a new design Korg B1 > 300b Valve Power Amp, the Jubilees become much much larger than the listening space, never have I heard such voluminous sound from a speaker outside of a Concert Venue.

There is something very attractive about the being there moment, but an honest evaluation will remind one that the experience has been with shortcomings, where was the visceral bass notes reminding one of their Celiac Plexus being in the body, and I was able to speak straight after, where usually the voice is lost for a few days.  .

As I have stated in the past, sound being produced from a acoustic instrument 'is not' directional, it is a omnidirectional sound. The listener present, experiencing the  the sound, will hear differing variants of the sound being produced as a result of reflections within the room changing the sound at the point it is heard. Not all in the audience will experience the same sounds.  

How can being in a venue with acoustic music being produced become a faithful reproduction when a recording of the event, or something very similar as a production is heard as a directional sound presented through a speaker.

 

@billstevenson : " Every one of these options is wonderful and they all have distortions. Don’t let anyone try to deceive you.. "

Yes, all links in an audio home system chain develops distortions. The main issue it’s not that but the level and kind of those distortions.

Live MUSIC has its own kind of " distortions " that some of them just do not like to many audiophiles: brigthness, and sometimes even hardness and others.

Listen live MUSIC seated at near field position of the MUSIC source(s) produce some of those natural MUSIC " distortions " but with out that " near field " experiences no one can understand whaT i’M TALKING ABOUT. tHE AUDIOPHILE ADJECTIVE " WARM " ALMOST DOES NOT EXIST IN LIVE music AT NEAR FIELD and not " almost " just does not exist.

 

Btw, @adrianleewelch Live MUSIC is accurated and accuracy surrounded live MUSIC starting with its notes where the instrument players need to " swim " with true accuracy because MUSIC is not only notes but its accurated automatic developed harmonics and certainly it’s not sterile in anyway never/ever.

I like a lot horns in the mid/high frequency with a help of a supertweeter because is the close kind of speaker that has the immediacy only live MUSIC has.

Accuracy is not enemy of live MUSIC as a fact we need an audio system with high accuracy levels to enjoy MUSIC. Our kind sound taste is a way different history where accuracy is not a main subject.

Over the years I builded a extremely accurated room/system that sounds terrific ( well which chef speaks bad of his food ) not sterile in anyway and with that immediacy and very fast transient response and dynamic power that’s what I love in live MUSIC. Yes I’m still away of the live MUSIC " scenario " but through the time a little more close. First than all like you I’m a MUSIC lover and I don’t like to " listen " my system hardware but listen and enjoy the MUSIC.

Through more than 30 years I learned from first hand experiences and from other audiophiles and even reviewers to stay where I’m. Once by around 10 years I used tube electronics till I learned, used SUTs ( just named and I owned, even I still have the Entré you own. For many years the only trusty option were the SUTs for LOMC cartridges. ) till I learned, etc. etc. Audio life is a learning life day by day, I learned a lot of my " thousands " of mistakes but now I stay HERE and follow learning.

Btw, @billstevenson , as you I still have SUTs but not phonoline preamps due that after several years and after listened the top SS phonolinepreamps we decided ( José and I ) to design and build a unique SS phonolinepreamp named Essential 3150, then improved through the 3160 and rigth now what for us is the ultimate phonolinepreamp Essential 3180.

Yesterday we were listen MUSIC at my place and used this Denon SUT along the Essential 3180 MM stage ( it has too an active high gain MC separated stage ):

https://www.denon.jp/ja-jp/museum/products/au1000.html

btw, this unit I use hard wired with out its input/output connectors and is a formidable SUT that measured ( not by me but from an external source ) flat from 3hz to 250khz and probably the best SUT out there. How measure your made in Germany SUT?

Well, the kind and quality levels that we listenend where nothing less that amazing/outstanding MUSIC where you can’t be aware that a SUT is down there and this fact does not came by free but because the MM Essential stage is just terrific/transparent.To understand we have to live the experience to trust in what I'm posting. 

Yes, my common sense let me to arrives where I’m. My taste? well my taste is live MUSIC and what surrounded it.

 

R.

and I have to say that I have mounted in my tonearm a LOMC cartridge with 0.1mv as output and even that my speakers has 95db 1 watt at 1 m. no noise at all. Noise floor of the system is extremely low.

R.

The EE, who I first met to assist myself with some of my intentions for a HiFi system, and where a friendship formed, has now passed to approx' 30 years since the the inception.

Throughout this period there had been numerous opportunities to discuss sound production as a result of using electronic devices.

If a Pie Chart were to be produced to show Sound that is produced through electronic equipment, audio equipment would be a very thin slice, as the controlling measures for producing audio equipment are confining devices to conform to a particular limitation.

Other sound produced by electronic devices being used are limitless, and only constrained by the absence of a technology.

Vocalists, Musicians and Sound Engineers have been and remain on a eternal quest to create a sound that captures a individual, in the earliest of days it would be a use of Chords and Notes to the point they were unfamiliar. Today there are plug in devices and consuls filled with controls to change the basic notes.

Those who produce music pride themselves on their creativity and collaborations with others expressing creativity.

It seems a very good reason to be very welcoming towards the exploration undertaken by individuals who become known to the public and are able to supply the material to be recorded, which subsequently becomes the recorded medium that the audio enthusiast is so dependent on.

It also seems a shame that certain audio enthusiasts who make themselves known in a public domain, at times can't embrace the creativity being shared by another enthusiast.

It does seem there is an antithesis as the controlling element, where expressing a interest in a person is not part of the plan. Being insular and avoiding a collaborative engagement with another is the objective.

What is seemingly a protective stance, really does in my thoughts, lean toward the notion that such an individual believes their design for what they are achieving is absolute. This attitude may also be an indicator that if one is encouraging to another in their pursuit of being creative, it is a threat to ones own rigidity on their thought, that their way chosen, is the only way to get the best from a audio set up ?? 

       

I love that Raul could not resist taking a poke at my Viv Float tonearm. I’m verklempt.

Raul,

It would seem that we have reached more agreement than difference in this matter.  We both use SUTs on occasion.  (BTW, you can probably find out all about the Consolidated SUT on the OMA website, mine is the silver wire version.)  We  both use live music as our standard.  It has been a pleasure to exchange views.

I added a custom Cinemag Blue SUT to my PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp and everything came to life...  Kind of like 70mm Technicolor vs digital projection.....

I'm not looking back!

 

 

It was nice to see input from everyone who replied .  My posts are not exciting by any standards so I appreciated the exchanges.  Thank you all.  This forum is a very valuable tool.  I don’t post a lot but I read here every night, typically for about an hour.  Again, thanks for contributing.  Adrian

@adrianleewelch Of one hour is allocated, that should be just enough to read one of my posts 😂