Supratek Tubes and Tube Swappin' for Everybody

Sorry, this is a Cabernet. Just a line preamp, no phono. 

This is really cool. Pray tell, what "baseline" Supratek model did you have him start with, upon which to apply this customization?

Does it have a phono stage? LCR or "standard"?

Markus

I know this thread hasn't been super active recently but thought I'd drop my experiments in here. I got my Cabernet about a month ago. Mine has a twist though. I had Mick put in a switch so that I could use wither 6sn7 or 12sn7 tubes. I have accumulated a large number of 12sn7 tubes over the years and now I'll finally be able to try them out!bes. 

I started out with the 12sx7 tubes Mick sent with the preamp, think they are labeled GE. It was a good baseline to start with but their limitations were obvious when I started to listen to other tubes. 

The next ones were some odd tubes. The 14n7 is a 12sn7 with a Loktal base. All you need is some adapters and they will work in the octal sockets. It's my understanding that just about all 7n7 (the 6v version) tubes were made by sylvania and are exactly the same as the equivalent 6sn7. The 14n7 tubes are interesting because they have the additional support rods like the super expensive 6sn7wgt metal base tubes. None of the Sylvania 12sn7 tubes had those supports as far as I can tell. In addition to that, these particular 14n7 tubes have grey glass. To my knowledge Sylvania never made a grey glass 6sn7 let alone 12sn7. I might believe that these were some of the suer rare NU round plate tubes except they are actually labeled Sylvania... Anyway, I had to hear them. In comparison to the 12sx7, the grey glass 14n7 tubes were smoother and more lush. The bass is warmer and looser, the whole presentation became more "tubey" I suppose. 

Next up was the Sylvania "Bad boys." These are the bottom getter, three hole tall 12sn7. Gotta say, these are really good. I had a NIB sleeve of these I bought 15 years ago or so. Everything tightened up and became more vivid. I get why people have been praising these. 

I am currently listening to the Tungsol round plate 12sn7. They are living up to the hype. Very well balanced, spacious, sweet, controlled. Man, why do these have to cost so much? The 6sn7 versions are quickly becoming extinct. The 12v version are merely very expensive as opposed to exorbitantly expensive.  I am going to continuing scouring tube sellers to see if I can get another set. 

Coming up I will try a variety of RCA, Sylvania, and more 14n7 tubes. I also have a large number of 6sn7 and 7n7 tubes, mostly Sylvania. I do have a pair of Ken Rad round plate 6f8g tubes I'm curious about. Just waiting for the adapters to arrive...

Have been a very satisfied owner of a Chenin preamp - acquired (used) in 2014. Primarily playing vinyl (60s-70s rock plus some jazz, classical).Tube lineup consists of: Gold Lion KT-66 Electro-Harmonix 6SN7Sovtek/Electro-Harmonix 6922Mullard 6688Mullardd GZ37

Hey guys, has anybody tried running KT-63 in place of 6F6G as regulators, or if it’s doable?

Cabernet Dual inbound! 

 any Supratek users out there feel like sharing their current tube compliment? I'm curious,  especially about comparing the new production tubes to NOS tubes that have been raved about for a long time. 

It would seem that the Supratek owners have gone into hibernation. I previously owned the Syrah pre and loved it, especially the phono stage. I sold it when I had to downsize. Well I just placed a deposit on Micks Pinot stand alone phono stage and sold my Sutherland 20/20 phono stage. I am excited to get back to a Supratek tube phono stage. I am looking forward to tube rolling again, I only wish I hadn't sold off all of my W.E. 350B's. Those tubes are pure magic in my opinion in a Supratek, as well as the Tung-Sol 6SN7 GT. The Psvane, Shuguane, etc. are very good tubes but are not on par with the great NOS tubes. But there is absolutely no reason you cant be very happy with the stock tube set.

Hey, can we dust off this old thread? I'm about a month into my ownership of a new Gen. 3 Cortese with LCR phono stage. I've read a lot on the Preamp Deal of the Century thread, plus this one, and tried to research the state of Supratek tube-rolling circa 2019. I have reached out to Mick and he's basically advised me to spend my money on more music, that tube rolling nowadays will produce "different" sound but not necessarily better sound. 

I've also read at least one post somewhere, in which a tube-rolling Supratek owner eventually came back around to preferring the stock tubes. Also, it should probably be noted that now, in 2019, there are fewer of the sought-after NOS tubes available, and they are much more expensive than they were 15 years ago, and there are multiple variants of new production 6SN7 tubes available, such as from Psvane, the Shuguang Black Treasure, the Northern Electrics, and so forth. I'll be purchasing a complete replacement set of "stock" tubes from Mick in the near future and that will help to set my mind at ease. But I can't help but be curious what the collective thinking is among the long-time Supratek owners who previously posted on this thread. Given the way things are in 2019, who is running what in their Supratek preamps?

Ait,Sounds good,I have a Mullard GZ-37 that works well in my stock Chardonnay,I tried the GZ-32,,and 33,but the 37 sounded better in my system,not by leaps and bounds ,,but noticeably better.I will try the VA 350Bs soon.And post my thoughts,thanks,Ray

Just for completeness, I'm running a Mullard GZ33 rectifier, and single triode 2C22 linestage tubes with the VA 350B. The VA took about 10 hours to mellow out - there was a little bit of brightness at first, but that smoothed out nicely.

Thanks,I will have to try a pair soon!I always wanted to try a pair WE-350B,,,but the price,,,forget it!!!!The Valve Art s sound very interesting,thanks for posting!

Just reviving this old thread as I have found what for me is the best regulator tube I have heard in my Supratek Chenin, that being the Valve Art 350B. I know there have been posts from others extolling the virtues of the WE 350B but that is SUPER Pricey! The Valve Art is $34.50 per matched pair from AES, and works great!

The sound is very open and spacious, with excellent bass (comparable to or even a bit better than the Sovtek KT66 I had been using) and an enormous soundstage. The difference was not subtle versus the Sovtek KT-66. So in my experimentation so far, I've found:

VA 350B > Sovtek KT-66 > NOS Tungsol 5881 > Sovtek 5881

Before I did the swap I did some reading about shunt regulators and found some articles stating that the higher the transconductance, the better the tube is as a shunt regulator. Although I could find no specs specifically for the Valve Art 350B, the WE version lists a transconductance of 8300 mho, versus 6300 for a KT-66, 5300 for a 5881, and 4700 for a 6l6GC. Based on that difference I gave it a try.

I did contact Mick to be sure the higher filament draw wasn't a problem and he said it was fine, so I don't think that's a worry - so far ~20 hours and no issues. I fine tuned the B+ voltage to remain at 300V after switching tubes (it was very close anyway) so the differences are not due to a change in operating point of the other tubes.

Just thought I'd share.

Thanks for the clarification about which tubes may be used with the Syrah/Chenin. That's very helpful! I'm a tube novice :)

Powers - price isn't so much of a concern. I can spend as much as might be suggested if it will result in a corresponding increase in sonic results. I guess I'd put a cap on price only to the extent that the tube prices recommended are so expensive for my little Syrah but the resulting improvement is so small due to limitations of the Syrah that one could barely hear it than it might not be worth it. In that case maybe it would be worth looking at jumping up from the Syrah/Chenin to a higher end model preamp like a Grange or Cortese instead that can really take advantage of a better selection of tubes. Does that make sense? I guess it comes down to bang for the buck and living within the limitations of what can be reasonably expected out of a Syrah.

I was attracted to this preamp because of the extreme value it offers - best bang for the buck out there according to many and I haven't been disappointed in the least with its performance. But I lack knowledge in the whole world of tube selection so I'm a bit over my head in this department. If you have any suggestions that would really improve the sound of the Syrah I'll give it a shot. but if you think I may already be near it's limits and probably shouldn't toss too much into more expensive tubes for this model because it would be a better bang for the buck to upgrade the whole preamp I would take a look at that too. But honestly I'm pretty happy with what it has brought to my system so far. It is a huge improvement to the SS preamp I had before without any doubt. Right now its paired with a Pass Labs 250.5 and some older Watt Puppies. The tubes I have currently are the following from tube depot:

Regulators: Sovtek KT66 $49.95/pair
Line Stage: EH 6SN7 $11.95/pair
Rectifier: Bendix 6106 $39.95 ea

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hi there,
I got a Chenin just before Mick shut up shop and love it dearly.

If you can grab a pair of Kenrad VT231 black tube to replace the stock EH 6SN7. You are likely to get more body to the music and better bass. I've tried some Sylvania Brown base 6SN7, new russian made Tungsol 6SN7GT and RCA grey glass but still prefers the Ken Rad.

For the rectifier, i'm using the same Bendix 6106 and Russian Tungsol KT66 for the regulators.

I play vinyl quite a lot and thinks the Chenin phonostage is a star for a build in stage. But I did swap out the stock EH6922 with some NOS Russian Military 6H23N-EB from
http://www.thecableco.com/product.php?id=3887

Good tubes for not too much money but i couldn't help myself with a pair of NOS Siemens 6922 later on which were dearer but they paled against these Russian Millitary tubes, less sound stage depth, size and resolution. So not all expensive tubes are inherently better.

Incidentally, i've tried 2 solid state phono stages (still got the PS Audio GCPH) against the Chenin over the last year but i still prefer the Chenin by a large margin despite slightly higher noise floor.

Thanks for the clarification about which tubes may be used with the Syrah/Chenin. That's very helpful! I'm a tube novice :)

Powers - price isn't so much of a concern. I can spend as much as might be suggested if it will result in a corresponding increase in sonic results. I guess I'd put a cap on price only to the extent that the tube prices recommended are so expensive for my little Syrah but the resulting improvement is so small due to limitations of the Syrah that one could barely hear it than it might not be worth it. In that case maybe it would be worth looking at jumping up from the Syrah/Chenin to a higher end model preamp like a Grange or Cortese instead that can really take advantage of a better selection of tubes. Does that make sense? I guess it comes down to bang for the buck and living within the limitations of what can be reasonably expected out of a Syrah.

I was attracted to this preamp because of the extreme value it offers - best bang for the buck out there according to many and I haven't been disappointed in the least with its performance. But I lack knowledge in the whole world of tube selection so I'm a bit over my head in this department. If you have any suggestions that would really improve the sound of the Syrah I'll give it a shot. but if you think I may already be near it's limits and probably shouldn't toss too much into more expensive tubes for this model because it would be a better bang for the buck to upgrade the whole preamp I would take a look at that too. But honestly I'm pretty happy with what it has brought to my system so far. It is a huge improvement to the SS preamp I had before without any doubt. Right now its paired with a Pass Labs 250.5 and some older Watt Puppies. The tubes I have currently are the following from tube depot:

Regulators: Sovtek KT66 $49.95/pair
Line Stage: EH 6SN7 $11.95/pair
Rectifier: Bendix 6106 $39.95 ea

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hello,

First off, let's make sure we are only talking about the Syrah here.

You cannot use the 300B, PX4 or 45 tube replacing the 6SN7 tubes or any other tubes in the preamp without any modifications. The most obvious reason is that 300B and 45 have a different pin configuration, and number of pins, thus, different sockets required. The DHT (directly heated tubes) 300B, PX4 and 45 requires 4 pin sockets usually called UX4 sockets while the 6SN7 requires an octal socket (8 pins).

Let's leave the circuit characteristics of the Syrah for now.

regards,

Abe

Netexpress,

300B, PX/4 or 45 tubes are designated for various incarnations the Cabernet and Grange. These tubes are not to be used with the Syrah. Your instruction manual that was supplied with your syrah will outline the tubes that will work with the Syrah.

What is your budget for retubing?

6f6gt works quite well in the regulator position. NOS tube rolling in the line stage has been described this thread.

Syrah/Chenin tubes

I have a Syrah which is the same as the new Chenin (or Chardonnay plus phono). Most of the discussion here is about the Grange or Cortese or higher end models. So I'm not sure what applies to my Syrah. I'm currently using the following tubes from tube depot:

Regulators: Sovtek KT66 $49.95/pair
Line Stage: EH 6SN7 $11.95/pair + $2 to match
Rectifier: Bendix 6106 $39.95 ea

Are there better options for the Syrah? Can I even use the TJ 300B, TJ PX/4 or Sohpia 45 discussed here? Or does my unit not support the correct volates, etc? Other options I should look at?

I'm a big clueless here.

Thanks in advance!

Has anyone tried the new Tung-sol "Reissue" tubes. I have just installed their new 6L6G big bottles along with a pair of brand new nos GE 6SN7GTBs in my Chardonnay and it is a match made in heaven. I am using a Mullard GZ33 in the power supply but like to try a Bendix 6101. If any of you guys have a spare one that you would like to sell then please let me know.

In the Chenin, Can I disconnect the power supply from the rest of the preamp and just use the power supply to cook my new Bendix 6106 for a week? I will be away on vacation and was wondering if this was safe to do. I read this thread last night and I know someone did this with his Cortese but no one spoke to regarding the Chenin.

I am now using TJ meshplate PX4s.These sound better than the EH 300bs.Maybe not as expressive as the TJ 300bs but tonally similar and probably tighter bass.

JT

Thanks JT, I'd love to read about your experience.

-L

Larry,I have used the TJ and the EH 300bs.They are quite different sounding.The EH sounds much drier.On balance I much prefer the TJ meshplate although on initial listening I thought the EH was better.The TJ sounds more valvey I guess.
I have also heard the Western Electric but really didn't think it was anything special[certainly not worth the price].

I am going to the temple of Supratek this morning.Mick is going to guide me through restoring some old Crown stats.I might get to hear his latest project-a valve active crossover.

JT

Allow me to ressurect this thread. As a Cabernet owner I am slowly but surely expanding my tube inventory. I have the supplied tj300, great sounding, warm mids. I am currently listening with eml 45 solid plates. Deeper bass, less warm, but more detailed Mid's and High's. Next I am intrigued by the reputation of the Western Electric 300b's. But I have also read interesting talk about the Sophia 300b's. Anyone with any thought's, insight's or experience would be greatly apprecieated!

Larry,

I own a Grange, I had the Emission Labs 45 Mesh Plate's, and now use Western Electric 300B's. I my system the Western Electric are superior in every way. Not really even a close A/B comparison, to me they are night and day better.

Has anyone had any experience with 300b tubes and 45 solid plate tubes? Although I've fried a pair eml 45 mesh plate's I've gone ahead and ordered a pair of eml 45 solid plate's. I do love the sound of the tj300b's that came with the Cabernet, but until they went south, the 45 mesh's were sweet. Very lush and warm in the mid's and top end. Is their another 300 tube that sounds different, not necessarily better than the tj's? I'm realy looking for a variety of sound to play around with.

Hi Cello,Mustang,Larry. Curious as to what the general concensus was for the DTH gain tube of choice in the grange. cheers david.

Well, I have not rolled any NOS tubes in my Cortese yet, so I guess I should not say that about my Syrah. I am sure it is a tube issue and nothing to do with the preamp itself. I guess the Cortese just feels more solid because it is packed with more inside than the Syrah was.

Hi Ecclectique and Slowhand,I have the Chenin,The only time that I experienced any noise was changing 6922s in the phono section.I have afew pair,they test great,but some are microphonic... Other then that,it has been dead quiet from day one.Its also been plugged into a Shunyata Hydra power conditioner and cords from day one,and just recently a Nordost Thor power conditioner and cords.Check this out in your system... Everyone,have a great Christmas!

Hi Slowhand. I am not sure how to respond here as my syrah has always been dead quiet unless I happened to roll in a microphonic tube.

Ecclectique,

Hi David, my Syrah was very prone to microphonics compared the my Cortese. It is very quiet when tapped on. Both preamps take the same tubes. Why is the Cortese less prone to microphonics? When I rap on it with the signal on,but no music playing it is dead quiet. I always thought microphonics was a tube issue, but since both pres use the same tubes, I am not sure now.

.
Mc,
.
I have a switch on my Grange only that allows me to go from the PX4's to the 300B's so I guess I would fry a pair of Sophia 45's if I tried dropping them in.
.
I guess I will wait and see how your new 300B's sound and then chase those down if they greatly surpass your Sophia's.
.
Thanks,
Larry
.

Larry unless you can switch the filament voltage from 5v to 2.5v the 45 won't work. However if you have that option, I have a new pair of Sophia 45 Mesh Plates (ceramic base upgrade) that I'd be willing to sell you. Email me outside of the thread if interested.

Any Cabernet owner's have any thoughts? Mine came fitted with mb300 outputs. Would eml 45's be a nice upgrade? Regulator? I would love to hear from experienced tube swappers what they have done with their Cabernet.

>>I'd much rather use 6SN7 then 76 tubes myself<<

Which is not a bad thing. However Mick prefers the 76 or 37 in the Grange at least. Mine sounds much nicer with a pair of NOS VT-37 (RCA) than the factory supplied Italian made 76. "Different strokes", as Sly used to sing.

A dissenting opinion on 76. I'm not a big fan. I have many pairs for my personal use and have sold quite a few in the past, but in terms of sonic attributes, I'd much rather use 6SN7 then 76 tubes myself.

Hi Larry. I am not at all surprised that the Grange is sensitive to microphonics when using the meshplate examples of these directly heated triodes.Most of my experience with these DHT triodes is from repairing vintage amplifiers that used them.The early amplifiers that employed these tubes had to deal with the same issue common to DHT tubes. Most of the better amplifiers of the day employed a hum pot in the circuit to trim away the hum and microphony from the amp. A single triode like the 6j5,56 or 76 was also commonly employed as the driver for the DHT output tube in most of these amplifiers. In most cases, the meshplate examples of these triodes are generally far more prone to microphony than the solid plate examples of the same tube,and the same can be said for the driver tube as well. I would think one would have more success using a solid plate version of these tubes in a preamplifier circuit. The old nos RCA 45 is a fabulous tube and far less prone to microphony. I seriously doubt you can find a better sounding tube anyway. The same can be said for the Western Electric 300b for those that can afford them.Hey, it's a great option to have the ability to voice the grange with the different DTH's if one has various a examples of each type laying around.... but if it were me I would lose the microphonic prone meshies like the px4 and be done with it. Hey,I really love the sound of the early nos 6c5 meshie in my cortese, the 6c5 is basically the octal base equivalent to the 76. I had to sort through no less than 16 examples to find a pair that were acceptable for duty in the preamp. With the metal envelope versions of the same tube, not one of them were the least bit microphonic.Unfortunatly, they don't sound the same either.

Hi Larry. A tough call on the choice of either the 76 or the 6sn7. The 6sn7 uses an octal base whereby the 76 uses a UX type base so there is no substitution option for comparison. The 76 is also a single triode whereby the 6sn7 is a dual triode. The single triode equivalent of the 6sn7 is the 6j5 which is electrically very similiar to the 76 with a slightly higher amplification factor. There are different flavours to be sampled in both choices however my only bone to pick with the 6sn7 is that there are really only 3 or 4 examples of the 6sn7 that will sonically compete with a 76 as well as many other single triodes like the 37,56,7168,6j5,6c5,6p5. The few that do will cost you a small fortune. The only down side to the 76 is it's a 50 year old tube and somewhat difficult to source these days and even then it's only a fraction of the cost of a tungsol round.

Larry,
Sorry I forgot to address your vibration question. I was using the Symposium Super Plus Platform alone and in conjunction with both Aurios and Final Labs roller bearings (only one brand at a time of course). Surprisingly the roller bearings actually exacerbated the microphonics in my rack but as always YMMV. I then tried the Gingko with and without the roller bearings and after all the smoke cleared the Cloud 11 alone works best. My power supply is sitting on a 2" maple platform from Timbernation which sits on a set of Final Labs Daruma 3; no problems there. Don't give up and you'll find the right piece(s) or combination thereof.
Congrats on the 7308; you're going to flip. They're that good.

Larry,
No I have not heard the 6SN7 as my Grange is not configured for that tube only the 76/37.
Voltage for the power tubes is:
2.5V 45
5V 300B
4V PX/4

I can switch among all 3 voltages. Nice option.

.
Wc & David,
.
Thanks for advice.
.
Do the 45's require the same voltage as the 300b's or the PX4’s? Can I put the 45's in my system if it can handle both the PX4's and the 300B's ?
.
Wc, have you ever listened to the 6SN7's in your system ? I just sent Brendan an email ordering a pair of 7308's per your recommendation and a quad of 6F6GT's. Presently, I have a set of Symposium Rollerblocks under both Grange boxes. Was it the Symposium Roller Blocks that you tried ? I will look into the Ginko Rubber Ball platforms.
.
David, what do you think that the differences between the 6SN7's and the76's might be in my Grange ?
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

Larry,
I use Herbie's on all of my signal tubes except the 45 mesh plates. Although my preamp is equipped to run 300B, I have not tried them yet so I can't answer your question. As I posted prior, the 45's are much less microphonic than the PX/4 which I never plan to use again. No dampers in the power supply as there is no need.
I do not use 6SN7 as Mick's personal choice is the 76 in that position. I replaced the stock 76 with a pair of 1942 RCA VT-37 which made a significant improvement in the mids.
I took Whoopadeedoo's advice and ordered a pair of the special Russian 6H30 yesterday.
To address your first concern, yes there is a fair amount of microphonics with this preamplifier; it's the price we pay for greatness. Believe it or not the best device I've used and settled on is one of those Gingko rubber ball platforms. I tried cones, roller bearings, and Symposium but for this particular application the Gingko works the best. Give it a shot; they offer a money back guarantee. You'll need the Cloud 11 which is the larger version of the Cloud 10.

Hi Larry, I read your last post just after I posted mine. I have to go to a hockey game and will get back a little later.

Hey Larry, Congrats on the grange,I'm very jealous. I am still contemplating ordering one myself, as I have been a big fan of DHT amplification for years. My experience with the 45,2a3,300b,845 triodes etc is that they all seem to possess a certain soul,a righteousness if you will,a purity of sound that is hard to describe.Having the abilty to tune ones preamp with the soul of these various DHT triodes has got to be the ultimate front end. Kudos to the brilliance of Mick for pushing the envelope here.I am sure either choice of the various DTH triodes will sound fabulous but I have a sneaky suspician the natural beauty of WE 300b or a nos 45 will end up as the tube of choice here. Mustang..... sounds like your going to have an exciting Christmas holiday and I am eager to hear your thoughts on the voice of the different tubes in the mighty Grange.I am not at all surprised that some of you guy's are finding the mesh plate tube types to be microphonic.Most mesh plate type tubes are prone to microphonic by design.

.
Wc65Mustang,
.
I am getting an incredible amount of microphonics. If I tap the volume and channel control knobs in the front of pre-box (as well as any tube in the pre-box or top plate of the box), I get huge ringing through the speakers. If the system is up but nothing playing on the TT or CD player and I clap my hands or speak loudly, I get ringing and microphonics through the speakers.
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The Grange came from Mick with the TJ PX4's and a pair of TJ 300B/n's. I just dropped the 300b’s for the first time and seem to have the same high level of microphonics.
.
Did you get the same level of Microphonics from the TJ 300B’s as you did with the PX4’s.
.
I have a few Herbie’s tube dampeners on the 6SN7’s, 6922’s and E180F’s, but not the PX4’s or the 300b’s nor any of the power supply tubes. Have you had any luck with tube dampeners.
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David, please feel free to jump in here.
.
Thanks / Rgds,
Larry
.

Larry,
Actually not yet as I'm playing with a pair of Emission Labs 45 mesh plates for a few weeks. They are much sweeter and far less microphonic than the PX/4. I'm saving the WE for the holidays. :-)))))

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Wc65mustang,
.
Have you had a chance to compare the 300B's to your PX4's yet ? I am curious to hear if getting a pair of 300b's is worth the effort.
.
Rgds,
Larry
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