Hi Gang. Whopadeedo. You stated "you preferr to run your gear with the tubes that were designed for it". Are you stating the spec for the rectification duty of your supratek is only rated for an gz34/ar4 and the 6106 doesn't meet spec? Your metal based gz34 is a fabulous rectifier to be sure[yes I have one] however, there are more than a dozen substitute rectifiers that will meet spec for rectification duty in your supratek.Please sir, don't interpret this post as being derogatory. Regarding regulation tubes....Mick recommends a max of 1.5 amps for heater current on the regulators. Well in the real world, that .1 amp draw for the heaters will fall well within the tolerance on any cuircuit designers paramaters if one is using regulator tubes to smooth the ripple of the rectifier, regardless of what type of rectification tube type used. The 6106 is rather unique in regard to run in time, as it requires a ton more burn in time than any other rectifier of it's type. The 6106 mated with the 350b's is any thing but lean in character regardless of the speaker used. I have auditioned your very own Merlin's in my own room and I would never ever consider it as sounding lean in character by any stretch, even in my rather large sound room [ 34ft x 27 ft x 12 ft ceiling] Great speakers by the way! I can remember responding to Bwhite's post as well as others regarding this very same issue in the original preamp of the century thread. If your 6106 was new out of the box, be rest assured; that 1 week of playing time isn't any where near enough run in time on the 6106. Furthermore... there is no better rectifier/regulator combo[6106/350] for any of the supratek preamps . Yes, the 6106 is closer in spec to a 5y3 than a gz34 however,it "isn't" a 5y3 and there isn't a 5y3 type rectifier on the planet that sounds anything at all like the 6106 in the supratek or any other gear for that matter. Your reply to Jazzdude regarding the 5y3 distorting sooner than a gz34 may indeed be correct. That said: a 5y3 type rectifier is NOT a 6106, and the 6106 will "not" distort sooner than my metal based gz34. It's the very same analogy as saying the metal based gz34 sounds better than a mullard, amperex, sylvania,phillips gz34. Patience my good man, give in more time[much more] you will surely be rewarded! |
What makes you believe the 6106 is called upon to do the duty of a 5ar4 in the supratek, one could use the very same analogy by saying
the 5ar4 has to do the same duty as the 5z4, gz33, gz34, gz37 as well as a host of others. All of these rectifiers are recommended by Mick Maloney himself. RE: tube life???All the redbank family of rectifiers were developed exclusively for the Top secret American Missile Program. Their build quality and durabilty are legendary, and second to none. My 6106 has been in active duty for more than a decade and still test above 100% on both sides. It replaced a Mullard gz34 in my stock Dynakit stereo 70 way back in the early 90's. Whether it will outlast a Mullard gz34 in a supratek? I rather doubt it though, as the original Mullard gz34 lasted more than 20 years in the Dyna. Who the hell knows? but who here really cares anyway? |
Hi Jazz. Unfortunately...My typing skills are zero,I never did learn to type, not to mention that I'm a "certified moron" on these damned computers.I type with "one finger". hehehehe.....Hell if the keyboard didn't have the letters marked on the keys I'd have no chance at all! Yes, you have probably noticed how much longer the 6106 takes to power up the preamp when compared to other rectifiers. It also seems to take the supratek longer to warm up sonically with the 6106 in it. Furthermore, the 6106 operates at a lot hotter temperature [by design] than any of the others. When it's removed and cools down, unfortunately you will have to wait another 30 to 40 minutes for it to optimize the preamp. Another interesting observation.....About 6 months ago... I replaced my old 6106 in the cortese with a brand new 6106 and it sounded just dreadful,imparted a glare to the preamp that was unbearable to listen to. To run it in I powered it up [24/7] for a couple of weeks in the power supply of the syrah [unattached] and it still sounded rather thin by comparison, but the glare was almost gone at about 100 hours. It took a total of nearly 300 hours for it to fully flesh out.I loaned it to another supratek user[syrah] and he loves it paired with the 6f6g's in the regulation position. Yes sir: the 6K6g is another small power pentode that is a very good alternative tube option for regulation duty in the suprateks, however.... these were all originally made in either metal envelopes,st bottles or short glass gt types... the only 6k6 that is any good in our preamps are the earlier bottle shaped G versions with the round plate internals. The 6K6 metals are no good, the 6k6gt's are better but the G versions are the tube of choice. Note: There are a lot of other small pentode tubes from that same family that we can substitute for regulation duty in our preamps. Most of this family of pentodes... like the 6f6,6L6,6K6,6U6,6v6,1621,5871 can be used for regulation duty in the supratek and many are very gound sounding valves when used as an output tube in a good amplifier. However.... most of them were originally designed in either metal envelopes or glass bottles. My experience with them..... stay with the bottle types as none of the metals sound very good. Another superb tube for regulation duty is the 1621. This tube was used in the amplifier of wurlitzer's top model jukes, as well as some early Western Electric amplifier circuits. |
Hello Raytheprinter. Yes, it's a nice sounding tube in the syrah. |
Hi Gang. Raytheprinter, the ge 6sn7gtb sidegetter is a very good inexpensive tube option for those that don't want to pay the price for a pair of kenrad blacks, tung-sol rounds,or the metal based sylvania vt-231. In my experience... there are only 4 to 5 6sn7 types I could live with in the supratek and all of them are rather pricey,with the exception of the ge sidegetter. The ge sidegetter [gta or gtb] is the a very well balanced tube, with a midbass punch and resolution that will compete or surpass any of the tubes mentioned above . Further more....it is clean,clear and typically very low in noise with no microphonic tendencies so common in the better sounding 6sn7's. No...it doesn't possess the midband bloom and holographics of the Ken's or tungsol's but it is certainly an over achiever when price is a consideration and unquestionably the best "bang for the buck" tube choice for the supratek's. |
Supratek options and alternative tubes!!!! For those that are considering ordering a new preamp from Mick. As many of you know, Mick will custom make the preamp with a host of options: like a mono switch for the phono stage, gain switches, input and output configuration etc. The 6sn7 dual triode is the standard tube offered for line gain in all of the supratek's with the exception of the cabernet which uses a directly heated triode px4 for gain duty. The 6sn7 is a great sounding high gain dual triode tube that has gained favour and has been vitually reincarnated in many modern amp and preamp circuit design as opposed to it's electrically equivalent 9 pin miniature cousins like the 12ax7,12au7,12at7 family of dual triode tubes that were so common in the typical commercial circuits of the 60's,70's and 80's in the likes of Marantz, macs,fisher, and ARC's etc. And like he better minature 9 pin tubes [telefunkens'siemen,amperex, mullard etc] prices for nos 6sn7's and equivalents have escalated into the stratosphere with no end in site. "Check out the market value of a nos telefunken ecc803"[an uprated 12ax7 dual triode]These are typically trading now at close to $1000 a pair!!! The tung sol round plate 6sn7's are now trading at $200+ a pair if they are new in box! Geez gang.... 10 years ago you could buy tung sol rounds NIB for $10 a tube..... makes the stock market or your average mutual fund investments look pretty silly. Concerned yet? It's great for many of us that have collected a stock of nos tubes, but what about the newbie that wants to voice his gear with something other than crappy sovteks or the chineese equivalents????? Yes gang, there are alternative tube options that one can acquire for the suprateks that are very plentiful, dirt cheap, low in demand,and sound as good as the "best" of the 6sn7 tube family and at a fraction of their cost. What are they you ask? Single triodes..... 6j5's,6c5's,6p5's,or the magnificent 7193. Yes...some of these tubes have less gain than the 6sn7 but that can also be a huge benefit to those that have too much gain and very little play with their volume control. Example: I can only use the low gain setting on the syrah in my rig as the high gain switch gives me to little play on the volume pot [9 oclock on the dial is loud] The alps pot that Mick uses has typically sounded best around 12 oclock or higher in most any preamp employing the alps pot. If you need more gain,one can order the preamp with 2 sockets/channel and use a pair of single triodes and have the same high gain as the dual triode 6sn7 without having to route the signal through the contacts of the switch. If one needs less gain and is handy with a soldering iron, simply unsolder 2 wires to the 2nd tube socket. There are a huge selection of nos 6j5 types, metal envelopes,shoulder shaped G bottles,gt glass bottles from all of the great US munufacturers like kenrad, tungsol, sylvania, national union,RCA,Marconi etc as well as the great euro equivalents from Genelex,MO valve,brimar etc. Some are of round plate construction,some flat plate and a few are mesh plates. The 40's metal based sylvania 6j5 gt sounds every bit as good as the insanely expensive metal based 6sn7 vt-231. The kenrad 6j5gt sounds very similiar to the kenrad black and typically sells for $15 a tube. The 6p5g and 6c5g [lower gain than a 6j5]is in a different leaugue altogether and will outperform all of 6sn7. For the daring,or technically inclined DYI types.... I have saved the best for last as rewiring the tube socket is in order here to accomodate the 7193! The 7193 triode is a strange looking octal tube with plate and grid caps on the the top of the glass. These are electrically equivalent to a 6j5 single triode or 1/2 of a 6sn7. They were munufactured by RCA, NU, kenrad and tungsol as far back as the early 1930's.Many were used in old Juke boxes in their day as well as some early 50's tv sets. This tube just stomps on any 6sn7! Simply said.... there is no going back once you hear it. It's like comparing a telefunken ecc803 to a ge 12ax7, or a we350b to a 6L6. Halographic like no other,dead quiet,microphonics are non existant, super liquidity with incredible clarity,a silky sweet top end that floats into your room,the bass energy and drive of the kenrad vt-231 but far crisper and 3 times as tight. I use the cortese in my main system with my very efficient Tannoy Westminster's driven by VAC pa-90 monos employing the genelex kt-77 output tube. With the 6sn7's in the preamp I have very little room for play with the volume control whereby a single 6j5 is perfect for my application. I have unsoldered the other socket whereby I use only 1 6j5/channel. If I change amps or speakers that are lower in sensitivety, I simply solder 2 wires to the second socket. This allows me the gain flexibility without routing the signal through another switch. It also allows me the abilty to compare the dual triode 6sn7's to single triode 6j5 or equivalents like the 6c5's,6p5's and 7193,s. Some food for thought for those the are considering a new supratek preamp. |
Hi Raytheprinter. Man, you have been on a mission lately!...and a very fine system sir. Didn't mean to put any pressure on you. I see you have already discovered the Kenrad vt-231....a great tube in the supratek. How did the sylvania 5v4 work out for you? It can be marginal for the supratek's with a phono stage unless it test's close to 100%. You may or may not experience a little image shift or wander when playing vinyl. Both examples of the 5v4g that I have do ehibit this peculiar trait. |
Hi Gang. Raytheprinter.... The kenrad black vt-231 really has a flavour all of it's own with perhaps the most dynamic bass energy of all of the 6sn7 types, albeit a little on the tubby side when compared to most of the others.Above the bottom 2 octaves it is very clean with great ambience and air, it throws a big soundstage thats both deep and wide. By comparison, the greyglass rca vt-231 possesses a very similiar character tonally. It's bass range is also somewhat overly ripe however it is a well balanced tube from top to bottom with a beautiful timbre, harmonically rich with a realistic soundstage and liquid mids. Not quite as vivid and organic as the kenrad but a beautiful voice none the less. Kpinneo.... Congrats on your new Sauvignon. Regarding the wiring for the 7193, I am assuming your sauvignon is set up with the 6sn7 for line gain duty. The 6sn7 [a dual triode] is basically 2 6j5's[a single triode] in one bottle. Both the 6sn7 and the 6j5 are octal based tubes and utilize the same tube bass. My cortese is set up for 2 6j5's for each channel or 4 6j5's in total for line gain. The 7193 is the electrically equivalent to the 6j5 except it's connection to the grid [pin 5 on the base] is now rerouted to the top of the tube and connected with a top cap. The anode [pin 3] is also rerouted to the other top cap on the tube. |
Kpinneo. Further to the above thread.... I was reviewing what I had written and clicked the submit button by accident. Anyway.... The re-wiring for mine is a little more straight forward considering I only need to unsolder and re-route two wires. I am assuming here that you have some soldering skills,basic electronic fundamentals and a little experience with vacuum tubes in general. If not; I would suggest you work with a local techie or a modder to do the change for you. Furthermore: You will have to run the extra wires with the top caps either/or from the underside of the preamp and up the sides to the connections on the top of the 7193 or drill holes beside the tube socket to route the extra wiring needed. The wiring and pin connections for the 6sn7 is somewhat different being it has two triodes sections. The heaters [pin 2 and 7 ] or the same for both tube types. The cathode [pin 8 ] is also common to both tubes. Remember the 7193 is a single triode so one triode section of the 6sn7 will be unsoldered at the tube bass. The unsoldered wires will be at pin #2,3,and 4. Those wires should be folded and labelled. The connections for the 7193 should be as follows: Pin #8 is wired for the cathode, pin #7 is wired for the heater. Pin #6 will be unsoldered as this wire will need to be re-routed to the top of the tube and a top cap soldered to it. Pin # 5 is the anode, unsolder and re-route the wire to the top cap of the tube. Top Caps must be snug at the tube connection. Always mark the wires for identification for converting it back. Remember, the gain of the preamp will now be 1/2 of the 6sn7 unless you use a pair for each channel. For those that want to use the standard 6j5 and equivalent subs....leave the connections as they are at pin #5[grid] and pin #6[anode] and unsolder pins #2,3, and 4. Please note: I will not be held responsible for any damages to your equipment as a result of this post and I would strongly suggest you consult with mick at supretek before you proceede. Hope this helps and best of luck. |
Sorlowski. The tung sol 5881 is too pricey only because it is a good sounding tube when used as an output tube in push/pull configured audio amp as well as being very popular with the guitar amp guys where it's in big demand. It's really not that great a tube in the supratek anyway and certainly not worth paying the current market price for. The lowly 6F6g as well as many others inexpensive nos types like the 6v6,6k6,6u6 sound as good if not better for the same cost of the currently manufactured 5881's or 6L6's. The chineese kt-66 reissue is a very good tube if you want new. |
Hey Gang. There was a PX4 that was developed and manufactured by Genelex back in the 30's. It is extremely rare and very highly sought after in Europe and Japan. Like the original PX25, next to impossible to find. A pair would typically sell for more than your cabernet. |
WcMustang. Yes sir. We are more than certain Mick knows what works and what doesn't. However.... A new production 5ar4 is electrically the equivalent of: you quessed it... An old nos gz34/5ar4 and the sovtek 5881 is the electrical equivalent of a nos 5881/6L6 as well as many other substitutions in the regulator position. That's why they call it tube rolling sir. Pick your poison sir. |
Hi Gang. Just returned from a little holiday to catch up on the thread. HOLY TAMOLLY! |
Hi Sorlowski. They are the same tube and made by the same company. Sometimes can be labelled as M-O valve as well.Genelec was the British division of the General Electric Co. The kt-66 is a beam power tube and was developed as an uprated equivalent to the American made 6L6 and far superior sounding in most audio amplifiers when employed as an output tube. And one of the best tubes when used as a regulator in the suprateks. |
Kgturner. I have never tried the new valve arts as the regulators in my supratek however a friend bought a pair for output tubes in his 6L6 based Audio Note amplifier. The the results were pretty disappointing when compared to his nos 6L6's and a bad joke when compared my Western Electric 350b's. Worth a try as a regulator though.... who knows,might work well for that application. |
Hey Slowhand. How good is that! congrats man. |
Hey Ray.I will check my stash. I have a bunch of 6f6G's. |
Hi Gang. Mem916. Did those marconi px4's show up? |
Hi Ray. The 6f6g [shoulder shaped bottles]were the first examples of this pentode and typically made in the 30's. The st glass version was introduced later [40's-50's] and then followed with the metal envelope types. In the suprateks, the G bottles are the better sounding. Most all G versions internals have a round black plate very similiar to that of the Western Electric 350b, although I have seen some with oval plates as well.The 6f6 pentodes were typically used in many early radios and juke boxes. |
Hi Mustang. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the EL 45 compared to the PX4 and the 300b.The 45 is one amazing tube when used as an output in a single ended circuit. Larry, my take on the value of the Tungsol 5881 mirrors Mustang's to a T. The guitar guy's love them,and the demand has driven up their market value significantly in recent years.The 6F6G/vt-66 family of tubes is still relatively inexpensive by comparison.The money saved would be a far better value invested in a great nos rectifier. |
Hi Gang. Larry/Mustang.....Yes, the 6h30 is a dual triode developed by the Soviet Army. There is no equivalent sub for it.Until the fall of the Big Red Machine,no one even new it existed. Victor Khomenko of BAT was one of the first to introduce it to the West and employ the 6h30 in a commercial design. He dubbed it "the super tube". More and more designers,DIY types as well as the industry giants [ARC,CJ etc]are now embracing this tube for use in audio circuit design and rightly so as it does possess some unique electrical characteristics that are ideal for use in audio circuits that other triodes simply cannot do. Unusually high filament current[transconductance]combined with very low plate resistance, as well as an ideal amplification factor whereby it can be employed as a single stage all by itself, without the use of any negative feedback or cathode followers. Not to mention it's a 10,000 hour tube thats very low in noise and microphony. |
Hi Larry. Did you get yourself a Grange too? The partsconnexion.com up here in Canada sells the 6n30 as well as many nos tubes including the siemens ecc88's. Chris Johnson is the former founder and president of the now defunct Sonic Frontiers.A good guy and I think he provides a service for cryo'ing tubes as well. |
Hey Larry, Congrats on the grange,I'm very jealous. I am still contemplating ordering one myself, as I have been a big fan of DHT amplification for years. My experience with the 45,2a3,300b,845 triodes etc is that they all seem to possess a certain soul,a righteousness if you will,a purity of sound that is hard to describe.Having the abilty to tune ones preamp with the soul of these various DHT triodes has got to be the ultimate front end. Kudos to the brilliance of Mick for pushing the envelope here.I am sure either choice of the various DTH triodes will sound fabulous but I have a sneaky suspician the natural beauty of WE 300b or a nos 45 will end up as the tube of choice here. Mustang..... sounds like your going to have an exciting Christmas holiday and I am eager to hear your thoughts on the voice of the different tubes in the mighty Grange.I am not at all surprised that some of you guy's are finding the mesh plate tube types to be microphonic.Most mesh plate type tubes are prone to microphonic by design. |
Hi Larry, I read your last post just after I posted mine. I have to go to a hockey game and will get back a little later. |
Hi Larry. A tough call on the choice of either the 76 or the 6sn7. The 6sn7 uses an octal base whereby the 76 uses a UX type base so there is no substitution option for comparison. The 76 is also a single triode whereby the 6sn7 is a dual triode. The single triode equivalent of the 6sn7 is the 6j5 which is electrically very similiar to the 76 with a slightly higher amplification factor. There are different flavours to be sampled in both choices however my only bone to pick with the 6sn7 is that there are really only 3 or 4 examples of the 6sn7 that will sonically compete with a 76 as well as many other single triodes like the 37,56,7168,6j5,6c5,6p5. The few that do will cost you a small fortune. The only down side to the 76 is it's a 50 year old tube and somewhat difficult to source these days and even then it's only a fraction of the cost of a tungsol round. |
Hi Larry. I am not at all surprised that the Grange is sensitive to microphonics when using the meshplate examples of these directly heated triodes.Most of my experience with these DHT triodes is from repairing vintage amplifiers that used them.The early amplifiers that employed these tubes had to deal with the same issue common to DHT tubes. Most of the better amplifiers of the day employed a hum pot in the circuit to trim away the hum and microphony from the amp. A single triode like the 6j5,56 or 76 was also commonly employed as the driver for the DHT output tube in most of these amplifiers. In most cases, the meshplate examples of these triodes are generally far more prone to microphony than the solid plate examples of the same tube,and the same can be said for the driver tube as well. I would think one would have more success using a solid plate version of these tubes in a preamplifier circuit. The old nos RCA 45 is a fabulous tube and far less prone to microphony. I seriously doubt you can find a better sounding tube anyway. The same can be said for the Western Electric 300b for those that can afford them.Hey, it's a great option to have the ability to voice the grange with the different DTH's if one has various a examples of each type laying around.... but if it were me I would lose the microphonic prone meshies like the px4 and be done with it. Hey,I really love the sound of the early nos 6c5 meshie in my cortese, the 6c5 is basically the octal base equivalent to the 76. I had to sort through no less than 16 examples to find a pair that were acceptable for duty in the preamp. With the metal envelope versions of the same tube, not one of them were the least bit microphonic.Unfortunatly, they don't sound the same either.
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Hi Slowhand. I am not sure how to respond here as my syrah has always been dead quiet unless I happened to roll in a microphonic tube. |
Hi Cello,Mustang,Larry. Curious as to what the general concensus was for the DTH gain tube of choice in the grange. cheers david. |
