Supratek Owners Thread

 "When you order remember you can customize the preamp"

Yes and no lol....

last week I tried to upgrade the power supply on a Chardonnay order and Mick basically talked me out of it.

Between his saying the boutique caps, resistors and inductors can "feel good"

they really don't do that much to improve the sound, only "change it"....

also stressing the real magic in the design is in the "tube shunt regulator".

After this and more I gathered he may not have wanted to make the PS upgrade,

Im sure I could have insisted, but I decided to leave things alone.

I think it’s fair to say that Mick considers those more tweaks than anything else. I also understand his reasoning behind not wanting to change the sound of his product. He knows and understands how his products sound. When you make things sound different he doesn’t know what the end result will be. And to be fair, you don’t either! Lol. Once you get a feel for the sound you can always tweak it later on  

When I talk about customizing I’m talking about functional differences as opposed to circuit or design changes. Appearance, tube voltages, outputs, inputs, etc.

Agreed.

 I asked for an upgraded power supply....which I believe is the main difference between the Chardonnay and Cabernet.....

Another way of saying "please change my order to Cabernet"

LOL!

Nah,.. you dont understand the PS, and how its built.  There is very little difference if any between the  chardonnay / cab PS.   The main PS feeds the tube regs which make it what it is and do the major cleaning/stabilization of the V feeding the circuit.  The main difference people see in the 2 models is between the regs either being on the pre or located on the PS.  It is purely cosmetic and he actually makes the cab a lot of times with the regs on the pre chassis.   The PS circuit for both is the same.  Adding in a boutique cap in the PS before the the regs is honestly a waste of money as well.  My opinion on (and his) on using fancy parts in areas that they wont make a difference.  I’ve been lucky to hear a ton of his amps in just as many configs including ‘tricked out’ PS’s etc,..  it aint worth it and the reliability drops. 

Btw,..  the difference between the 2 is pre circuit.  Chard. hey s a traditional resistor loaded circuit, 2stage, direct coupled.   Cab uses some CCS load,  direct coupled as well.  Both are parafeed output as all Suprateks are.   

@aldnorab 

I only had a chance to listen to the Cabernet for about 10 days in the SC system before I had to leave town so no where near broken in at less than 75 hours.  But based on that brief listen to it in the same system the Sachs was in and almost three years of the Chardonnay if nothing else changed the Cabernet would be closer in "sonic signature".  That as you know can be varied a bit with tubes but not but so much.  I could easily live with either one but my curiosity got the best of me. 

@jackd this gives me a good idea how the D. Sachs compares with the Supratek models. Your comparison Helps a lot. Buying a second Supratek also speaks highly of their sound quality.

@jslateiv  appreciate your explanation of the circuitry differences between the Chardonnay and Cabernet. I agree that hand built items are works of art and can be passed down thru the ages. 

I didn't realize the chrome and copper were different cosmetic choices. Thought it was chrome plated copper, possibly used as chassis shielding. I'm fine with black powder coat. 

Thanks everyone,

aldnorab 

@aldnorab 

If you own or plan on owning an amp whose input sensitivity is a good match for the current Sachs preamps 18db gain then it is a fine preamp.  If you like to swap amps around or don't know what you may be drawn to in the future then the Supratek's adjustable gain gives it the edge on that front plus the balance control.  To my ears though in both of my systems there is just something different about the Supratek sound that just draws me into the music differently.  Though their character may be slightly different it applies to both models I own.  The greater flexibility with the increasingly more expensive 6SN7 tubes is just a bonus.  

The Chrome is plated over a copper chassis.   He used to offer a straight copper that was polished (pics on his website) but did away with it.  There is a ‘antique copper’ finish that is more a copper/hammertone type finish over a copper chassis. It looks really good.   The powder coat finishes are all on steel chassis.  Both will give some level of shielding as they are grounded but the copper gets the edge there.  I think you’d be hard to tell a diff. in SQ between the 2 honestly.   Get what looks best to you or works with your budget.  

@jslateiv thanks for the clarification. Bet the hammertone copper was incredible looking. I'm fine with powder coat black.

Thanks,

Doug A

@jslateiv Thanks for helping me understand the difference (or should I say no difference) between the two power supplies.

Well it finally came to pass, and I would like to share it with you, who contributed to this thread: my custom White Grange arrived in the first week of November, exactly a year after I had placed the order with Mick: good things will come to the one who waits! I had to completely rearrange my equipment and decided to build a new rack. I found a store room shelf assembly at Loews made of hard PVC for $145.00. I cut the "columns" to size, filled them with slow-setting concrete, and painted the entire assembly to create a unified look with the rest of my instruments. I prevented sagging of the shelves by supporting them with cross beams suspended on two threaded rods in the center: works like a charm with zero vibration anywhere. Moreover, the rack comes with ribbed shelves, which allow for superb air circulation.  I would love to show you pictures here but I don't know how to imbed them on this thread. So, I am showing them on my FB page (yes, I am THAT old), under "Reimar Bruening". Check it out.

In the beginning, I was taken aback by the very high gain of the phono stage. With the gain setting at around 10 o'clock and the volume at 9 o'clock, I got terrible noise on the left channel. Mick and another stateside customer, Johnny Slate, suggested a bad tube and to switch them one at a time from left to right. As it turned out, they were right: switching the 6688 (E180F) brought the noise to the right channel, and a few days later a new NOS set of tubes from eBay eliminated the noise altogether. However, while the sound began to bloom, I was missing the deep soundstage my previous set up had produced (Sunvalley SV-EQ1616 paired with Ed Shilling's "The Truth" optical preamp). After a three week burn-in, the sound stage improved somewhat but the placement of the instruments and the soloists was for lack of a better word "undecided", "wandering around the stage" depending on the temporary loudness of the respective source; moreover, I had to turn the balance knob all the way to the left to get a somewhat centered image: weird. I also noticed that this effect was more pronounced by the 6NS7 tubes and less so with the 300Bs (the Grange provides both options: the instrument was shipped with NOS 6SN7s by Australian brand Miniwatt, while the 300Bs are new Linlai from China). The 300Bs, however, are more powerful providing an overall "larger" musical experience, but still no precise instrument placement. Also, the timbre of the high octaves of a grand piano tends to be more "percussive" with the 300Bs (this is always a litmus test for me: Da Falla "Nights in the Gardens of Spain" with Rubinstein and the Phillies, RCA LSC3135). Well, that was disappointing. So I  began scouting for replacement tubes for the stock 6NS7s and found an intriguing pair on a Canadian site, Grant Fidelity, namely their custom-designed "Treasure Globes", made by Chinese maker Shuguang (

They arrived this morning and without any burn-in, they sound absolutely amazing. This is the sound which I associated in my dreams with the Grange, while waiting for an entire year for its arrival. The instruments are now firmly in place in a wide sound stage that extends about 3 feet on both sides of my speakers (Ellington Jazz Party In Stereo, Columbia CS 8127, original pressing) and their respective timbres are spot-on; moreover, the balance dial is now dead center. I try to keep this short; only so much: your SUPRATEKs might not perform to their fullest capabilities, if you use them with the stock 6SN7s or 300Bs. If you feel, there could be even more, or if something feels amiss of outright wrong, it's most likely time for tube-rolling. In my case, it became a revelation, and I can now see why other SUPRATEK fans swoon over their instruments. My next quest will be for the optimal 300Bs and 45s: stay tuned. But I am already completely sold with the "Treasure Globes".

@reimarc thanks for posting

Could you share a picture of the Linlai that came with the preamp?

For 45 try the EML 45B, I personally like it 

Hi @reimarc 

The reason I asked about the Linlai's is that these are supposed to be good tubes but the stock you received could have been different. There is a thread about these, the ones with the E are supposed to the best and the Linlai letters on the tube are running vertically.

There are some others the letters run horizontally and some have described these as different.

That's why I was trying to find out the ones that did not work for you which specific type were

thu

These are available at Grant fidelity. These are the ones you want

remarc,

Congrats on your Grange.  With the white finish did you ge with the chrome? I bet that looks fantastic. 

OK, can anyone help me with posting an image of my new GRANGE? I seem to be too dumb (if I click on the image icon, a dialog window opens asking for an URL).

Right click image click on copy image link and paste in image url

I am a Mac user: Macs do not assign URLs to private images. There must be another way. On FB, I just drag the image into the message window, but here this does not work.

Question to the forum participants. Is your balance knob working? And if so: do you hear a dramatic difference between all-the-way-right and ...-left? 

Highlight your image then copy then paste to where you make post. 

The balance knob on Supratek pre’s only changes the balance in very small increments, according to Mick that is intentional.

I was just questioning the exact same issue this week with my Chardonnay.  My balance knob has minimal effect of any kind on the sound between  speakers.  I considered texting Mick but now I understand it's a normal function from the designer.

The balance shift is slight.  The control is not implemented in the traditional style where it is another shunt to grd. in addition to the Vol. pot.   Mick does this purposely because there is less degradation to the signal but the caveat is that there is less total shift to either side.  There is also the thought that if you need to shift the balance more than 6db or so left or right (for whatever reason) then something in the setup or associated gear is wrong and needs to be reevaluated.   Alot of pre’s completely omit a balance control these days. I think that is a mistake as there can easily be situations where a slight shift is needed, especially with tube gear.   As tubes age and get hours on them there gain can shift slightly (or more) over time and some balance shift may be required to recenter the image.  Hope this explanation helps clear any confusion.  

This is the reply I got from Mick today about my balance inquiry:

>>>

Reimar

Theres nothing wrong with the balance, as I said previously, its not a conventional balance control, it only has a very small amount of “shift” compared to a full cut balance control, which has a negative effect on sound quality.

I have a MC cartridge with uneven L R output and the balance control is all the way to one side to compensate , but it could still do with a little more. 

I’m cursed (?) with very precise imaging ears, I can hear the slightest amount off centre sound staging , which is why i built the balance that way, it gives me very fine control for getting an exact central image.

Mick

Michael Maloney

www.supratek.com.au

>>>

I am not talking about a >6dB shift: that would indeed indicate something is wrong with my setup. But my left ear is slowly deteriorating: I described this to Mick when I ordered the additional volume control for my Grange a year ago. What I got, does not work, as I cannot detect ANY balance shift at all, even with my ears directly at the speaker cones. I would probably show Mick some oscilloscope traces to get his sympathy. I have to conclude that either the balance knob is disconnected or that there is a faulty pot involved. On digital feeds I can use the DSP on my Mac w/o any sound degradation (the sound being not great to begin with), but with other sources, especially LPs I am stuck; and I don't want to put another box into the signal path.

Lastly: I had a functioning balance control on my previous preamp, and I could not detect any "negative effect on sound quality".

Any suggestions how to address my predicament? I was so looking forward to the Grange, but this really puts a dampener on my joy, as EVERY tune I play comes out with its center at 2 pm, no matter where the balance knob is pointing.

If you are struggling to get the centre image balanced may I suggest-

.Try swapping left for right speakers and right for left and see if the imbalance is still there.One speaker might be faulty.

.Swap the tubes left for right and right for left and see if that changes anything.That will indicate if there is a faulty/low output tube.

If all that tests OK then you might need to change the balance pot for a different value.Any technician could do that.

Do the Chardonnay automatically ship with one set of input & output XLR?

Thanks,

aldnorab

Yes

I had some problems with my Cabernet when I got it, problems with hum, it ended with the pre being sent back to Mick for fixing,

When I got my amp back the hum had disappeared but unfortunately while the 6SN7 was working great, the 300b output only works as long as I don’t use the gain control, as soon as I engage the gain control switch I lose the left channel, therefore I can not use the 300b output to my satisfaction.

Not sure if it is a quality issue in production or it is shipment damage, have open it up and taken pictures of the inside but I can not see anything loose soldering or otherwise or out of place.

I think it is a bit challenging to buy from a small company and having it shipped halfway across the world.

I guess I will start with the obvious question. Did you try swapping the position of the tubes? If so, does the fault follow the tube? Just wondering if one might be bad. Start with the 300Bs, then make sure all the others are properly seated. Plus the umbilical, then the interconnects. If none of that works then talk to Mick about having his Tech in the US work on it.

It was my understanding that if you have a Cabernet Dual you can only have adjustable gain on one of the two output tubes.  Either 6SN7 or 300B but not both. 

The original dual was adjustable on both channels.  His current version 300/SN7 is adjustable on the 300b. SN7 is only main VC.    @Gryphongryph ,  does the gain adjust the sn7 output ?   Regardless,  if your losing a channel when you engage it,  something is up.   Possibly the switch.   If your in the US you can send to me if need be.  Contact Mick for my info.   Swap tubes side to side first though just to be sure.  

Hey Supratekers…I have a Chardonnay being built by Mick and I was wondering if anyone can share what amps ($3000 or less new or used) that pair well.  I do have a Decware Torii Jr. on order for over a year that I will give a try but not sure that is a good pairing.  Any thoughts are appreciated.

What speakers are you doing to be driving?  I own both a Cabernet and a Chardonnay and have used at least a half dozen different amps.  Also price limit if any?

@jackd my speakers are Goldenear Triton 2+, $3000 or less new or used

@jslateiv the gain adjustment is only possible on the 300b something I wish Mick had informed me about before I decided to buy, buyers should be made adware of that I feel.

I am certain it is the switch that is the problem, but unfortunately I live in the North Atlantic Ocean with no real tube experience person to help me with this problem, really don’t want to send the pre back to Mick one more time.

it’s unfortunate as I feel only half of the amp works as intended, but I paid full price.

Anyway, the sound from the 6SN7 is great, even if I have to use 12db attenuators

to match better with my power amp.

@tksteingraber 

Take a look at the Van Alstine SET 500 or the Kinki EX-M7.

Thanks jackd. Have a question about Chardonnay and Cabernet output. My solid state amps stay on all the time for better sound quality. Does Supratek mute the output during power up and down? 

Thanks,

aldnorab 

There is a 'mute' switch, yes.   but you have to engage/disengage it manually.  Not automatic at startup/shutdown.

@gryphongryph    Contact Mick and get my contact info.  I'd like to discuss your issue a little more but feel like we should take the convo off line from this thread.

@jslateiv thanks. I can definitely work with that. One more question. Is the XLR input truly balanced or a "convenience" connection.

Thanks,

aldnorab

The XLR in is transformer based so yes, it is a true balanced input converted by transformer to single-ended for the circuit.    The circuit itself (gain stages) are not balanced.   The output is transformer based as well and able to truly balance the signal or send out via single ended..

@jslateiv thanks for the info. It was exactly what I was hoping for. Just have to decide between Chardonnay and Cabernet. 

Thanks,

aldnorab

@aldnorab 

The Chardonnay is a more "classic/romantic" tube sound while the Cabernet is more neutral to my ears.  Your Sachs, which I also still have sitting around, is somewhere in the middle but closer to the Cabernet.  Either of the Supratek's are easier to match with amps due to the gain adjustments as opposed to the Sachs' fixed 18db gain. 

Thanks @jackd . If the Cabernet is even less warm and tubey than the Sachs, I might be better off with the Chardonnay. My system has a little bit of an electrostatic tonal balance. A little extra mid bass warmth and lower midrange presence would be nice. The Chardonnay isn't as syrupy as a '50s preamp is it? 

Thanks,

aldnorab 

@aldnorab 

No not at all like that and you can change the character of the Chardonnay quite a bit depending on the tubes you pick.  Another benefit is it's not as tube finicky as the first slot on the Sachs.  I've had multiple pairs of tubes that played fine in the Supratek's but not the Sachs.  If you made me choose just one not knowing what the future could hold in terms of amps it would likely be the Chardonnay.  Others may pick the other way.  

Order is in to Mick for a powder coat Chardonnay. I paid extra for the domes. Gotta have the domes for that Supratek look. Appreciate all the patience and help from the people in this thread. Especially lately from @jslateiv ​​@jackd , and of course the thread starter @markusthenaimnut . 

Thanks everyone,

aldnorab 

Congrats!  I have one here.   A very good circuit without doubt.  

I am a happy new owner of a Cabernet 6SN7. I was a bit worried that I would have an issue with the noise floor or tube hiss on my 100db efficient Altec A7 since I had issues with a Border Patrol EXT, Modwright LS 36.5 and a Rogue RP 7. I can happily report that the Supratek is dead quiet at the speakers when no music is playing. The soundstage, imaging, vocals, percussion etc are the best I have heard in my system. Everything sounds very realistic.