I'm preparing to replace my SS preamp with a tube unit and have read with great interest many threads on this board. This is where I learned about Don Sachs model 2 preamps. They sound like what I'm looking for and those who own them consistently express their satisfaction with them.
Now I've just been reading and learning about the Supratek lineup. Wow. These also sound like fantastic works of art. Leaving me with a new question about which way to go.
Thoughts? Advice? Experience? Anyone care to share?
Hi all, Don Sachs here. I just want to clear something up. Yes, you can buy a kit from Roy and build a great preamp. I use the same board. I suggested a number of improvements to that board and now kit builders can have them. That said, my preamp will be 25% or more better than the kit. The only thing my preamp shares with the kit is the bare board. All parts choices are mine, I have changed the operating point of the tubes, I have improved the power supply considerably, etc... I have my recipe that has been worked out over 4-5 years. That said, if you build a kit you will get a wonderful preamp for very little money and have the satisfaction of building it. If you get one of mine you get a warranty, and considerably better performance.
As for the other preamps mentioned, I am sure they are very good and the manufacturers take great care in building them. I cannot comment on their sonic qualities as I have not hear them.
I’m sure you’ll enjoy either of the preamps, I haven’t heard the Sachs, but can testify to Mick’s Supratek...I have the Syrah model and wouldn’t trade it out of the system for anything else. Running the tube pre with solid state linn amps with a linn TT. Love the combo and the amp really makes the system sing...brought it to a whole new level...
I have had my Supratek Cabernet 300B preamp for about ten years.Like others here a lot of other equipment has come and gone in that time but the Supratek has stayed.No other preamp I have tried sounds as 3D,as clear or as musically communicative.I recently compared it to a $20,000 Audio Flight Strumento preamp and as good as that is the Supratek was much better.
I never heard Don Sachs preamp. I have a Supratek Sauvignon. It was modded with better parts but, the circuit wasn't changed. It is a wonderful piece and sounds great. I have it for about 13 years and is the only piece that I haven't changed, that says how much i love this piece. Never had any problems in all those years. I'll never get rid of it
ianderson Just for the record I wasn't being defensive about the Modwright I was just stating my experience. Again , thanks for providing your insights
The Modwright is a fine Preamp and particularly with good NOS tubes, it sounds fantastic. However It’s only when you compare it to the Supratek does one draw the conclusion it’s a little more grainy. Let’s put it other way..... the Supratek more; dynamic, palpable, smoother, organic with a bigger, deeper soundstage etc.... it’s more like the real thing. You’ve got to hear it in the same system for comparison. I love any preamp that leverages a 6SN7, personally, I believe they are the best audio tube for preamps and power amp for driver positions too. Though I’ve never heard one, I’d bet I’d like the Shiit Freya too.
Those 40s Tung Sols sound out of this world, unfortunately they have a tendency in some circuits the be microphonic, yet in others it’s quiet. (Wyetech, ASL, and Supratek quiet, yet Modwright noisy) RCAs from all the eras I tried were quiet in no mater what pre I put them in. (unless they were altogether bad) It’s the nature of the beast. I have no doubt that you can find tubes the stay quiet in the Modwright and last a long time. The factory tubes I started with were quiet, the SQ was not in the same league of the NOS tubes from the 50s or 60s though. As fine as the Modwright is with great NOS tubes, there are better Pre’s out the IMO.
Back to the OPs question, has anyone done a side by side with a Supratek and a Sachs? I would love to know what the differences are!
I have the Modwright . I will say that I have never had any issues with tube microphonics coming through (have used NOS RCA and Sylvania; and new production Sophia Electric and Shuguang Black Treasures ); also haven't experienced a grainy texture. That being said I'm always interested in upgrading my listening experience so I appreciate your sharing your experience with your preamps as possible options
The Syrah was replaced by the Chenin around 2003. The main difference was the tubes used in the preamp phono section and the Chenin uses the Cortese phono circuit. The Chardonnay model is the current line stage iteration with no Phono section. I think the Cortese would be the closest current model with Phono. Call Mick to be sure.
Forgive me as is been 18 month since I did a direct comparison between the Modwright and the Supratek. (I should do another soon) What I do remember is in areas of dynamics, palpability, tonal presentation the Supratek was clearly superior. More meat on the bones, it pulled you into the music better. A warmer presentation too. The Modwright was a flatter, less engaging presentation and was somewhat grainy comparatively. This in spite of the fact I rolled RCA’s 40-60s, Sylvanians, Tung Sols from the 40s. The other odd thing is the Modwright would expose microphonics in tubes that were dead quiet in the preamps. The Modwright is a good piece, my findings are the Supratek is a step up, and the Wyetech be better still to my ears, and systems.
As I said earlier, I have had Don's preamp for several years now, and it is by far the best preamp I have ever had in my system. It is the last preamp I can ever imagine acquiring.
@facten, according to a 6 Moons review of the Supratek Chardonnay, the Chenin includes a phono stage and line stage. So the Chenin might correspond to the Cortese.
ianderson, Can you expound further on what you hear as the differences between the Chenin and the LS100? Also, any idea which current Supratek is the "equivalent" model to the Chenin?
Markus - based on many reviews on both the Sachs and Supratek I believe you’re going to be happy one way or another. I’ve experimented with many high quality preamps with different tube configurations, and to me the 6sN7 is king, and not by a small amount. So cool that there were so many great tubes that were produced over the years you have many tube rolling options. Most are reasonably priced (comparatively speaking) though my favourite in most cases is the 40s TungmSols. These are not cheep, however RCAs from the 50s are plentiful, inexpensive and sound great.
i have the pleasure of owning some other 6SN7 based Pre’s not on your short list and can confirm when a designer does a good job of it, the results are stellar. With each brings its house sound the the pros and cons that go with it. Further system synergy is so important, with all the tube rolling possibilities, you should be able to find your nirvana with either.
i hope someone can chime in and provide a candid comparison with the Sachs and Supratek from the same system... I would love know too!
i have a Supratek Chenin. Great preamp, and I love the dynamics it has. Mick is spot on here. I own a Modright LS100. (Supratek, is easily better to my ears).I have an Antique Sound Lab Flora, another one that is very good along with an Wyetech Opal, stella preamp! (Not in the same price category) The Opal betters the Supratek and ASL (my systems, ears and sonic priorities) if anyone in the Toronto Canada area has a Sachs, bring it over and we could have a comparison and I would be happy to report the findings.
Other 6SN7 preamps I’ve been curious about and would welcome a chance to hear in my system included; deHavaland Ultraverbe, Atma-Sphere MP-3, and TRL Dude.
Either of the two on your list have a plethora of universal praise from many well regarded forum members, I think you cant make a bad choice here, though it would be optimal to listen to both in your system before you purchase. All the best with your journey!
I really liked my Supratek Cortese. I sold it to buy an Audio Research LS25 MKii preamp, which turned out to be a step backwards sonically. The Cortese sounded great with the included EH tubes, so tube rolling was not necessary. It also had a very nice built in phonostage. Mick was great to deal with. The only drawback for me was that the power supply got hot and it warmed up my room a little too much, which is why I started looking for other preamps. I really liked the sound of my system with the Cortese, though.
I am in the camp with point-to-point wiring. Since repairing audio components for many years the majority of repairs were caused by heat and circuit boards. Think Melos and Counterpoint for starters. Neatness is nice but I have seen many designs were the lower voltage and higher voltage wires and neatly tied together. Also, most of the point-to-point designs can be upgrade with better parts to improve the sound of the unit with ease. My experience includes rebuilding power amps with PTP wiring such as Counterpoint, CJ, etc. In every case, the PTP rebuild sounded better that the circuit board. That does not mean that a circuit board design cannot sound good, it is just my opinion. My designs are all PTP wired though for what I believe is a better way to build a component. BTW, I have also modified a few Supratek preamps early designs. I have not seen one in many years for repair or modification/upgrade.
In comparing 6SN7 tube and 6DJ8/6922 designs they both can sound excellent. IMO only, the smaller tubes has a very sweet mid-range with an alive sound that can become a little shouty or harsh when pushed somewhat. The 6SN7 typically offers a more relaxed sound, slightly less alive sound, but more 3D soundstage. Both can sound excellent. To me the biggest sound improvement comes with the DHT preamp tube designs. The DHT IMO is a cross between the best qualities of SS and tubes. You get the dynamics, speed of the smaller tube with the 3D soundstage and sweetness of the larger tube. I also build both designs with the 6SN7 easier to build versus the DHT design.
Again, these are just my opinions and they are generalizations to emphasis the sound and possibly help others understand why things sound the way they do.
I hope my posts are helpful to some. Happy Listening.
Bought a Don Sachs all in preamp a couple years back. Every component upgrade I've down has been a incremental increase in sound that I wanted to hear.....until I slid the Don Sachs into my system. It was one of those moments that just had me smiling on every tune I listened to. I havent heard the other pre's mentioned. But I will say that there were posts where folks said they wanted the guts of the unit to look good. All this time I thought this was an audio experience, not visual. I'll be damned before I'll choose a component for looks rather than sound. And I will say I have a cousin with a Supratec in another State also coupled with some very nice equipment and he swears by it. We both would love to swap out to compare in each of our systems but distance makes it impractical. Good luck with your choice.
I have both a Don Sachs phono stage and one of his preamps. The preamp is probably an early model, one of the first with remote.
Both are superb.
Because of the pricing of Don's equipment there is a tendency to add "for the money" to review comments. While it is true that Don's gear costs less than some comparable equipment that should not be the driver of the buying decision. For instance, I also have a Pass XP 20 preamp which cost, new, so much that I would rather not say in case my wife's people are monitoring my Agon activity. I keep both preamps because I like to change the sound of my system now and then....my wife still works so I can do this during the day and she does not notice. Is one better than the other? All I can say is that they are different. And that I am glad I am lucky enough not to have to make a choice. I will say that Don's preamp is by a large margin the best tube preamp I have had in my system, and I have had a few. Don is a class act, always found him to be helpful and straightforward and goes out of his way to help a customer. I have asked many stupid questions, sometimes about equipment other than his own and he always takes the time to answer.
Can say the same here, have been in correspondence with Mick this last week about his pre amps in regards to maybe buying one, he has always answer promptly, I can also say the same about Don, both seam like knowledgeable guys, friendly and helpful.
Proud owner of a 16 year old Supratek Chardonnay here. This has been the one piece of equipment that I haven’t changed as I upgraded every other piece of equipment in my system (most more than twice). It blows away every preamp I have owned, auditioned or heard. I have not experienced the Don Sachs amps so this is in no way an indictment of them. I have had questions through the years about different tubes and Mick has always responded to my emails and questions promptly (even as annoying as I may have been). There is something to be said for being able to communicate with the guy that built your your equipment. Jared
If you carefully read the pages on the Don Sachs website, his custom phono preamp, line stage preamp and 60 wpc power amp are all based on the circuit boards he gets from VTA - http://tubes4hifi.com/
You can buy all of these things as kits from VTA, or have them assembled by VTA as well, for quite a bit less. What Don gets you is a much better look and possibly some minor tweaks.
@markusthenaimnut @mickm9 although I do own DS-2 and pretty satisfied withit I did not know about Supratek when I purchased my DS-2 but this hobby is a rabbit hole being retired myself I spend quite some time with my system visiting audiophile society get to gathers over a period of couple of years I tend to agree with michm9 , their is something "magical" about point to point wiring & simplicity of circuits and proves true talent of a good engineering design So congratulations on your decision !
Sachs hands down. You could pry my DS-2 from my cold dead fingers. Don’s a bit backed up right now, moving to a new house, so if he’s abrupt with you, give him a little slack..
Old potentially outdated information, but as I remember from years ago, when Suprateks needed warranty work Mick would decide if he needed to repair the item himself in Australia or if a tech local to the owner could fix it at Mick's expense.
04-01-2019 11:22am: ”I often recommend products that are not my own (as seen in this thread) [D. Sachs] and would be happy to recommend yours [Supratek’s] as well, provided I don’t have to worry about someone that took my recommendation getting mad because a fire or shock hazard was present in that equipment because a component came loose in shipment or the like.”
You don’t engage in this behavior in other threads. So I ask why now?
Hi everyone - Remember me? I'm the OP. I REALLY APPRECIATE everyone's comments on this thread. I am still learning and appreciate the discussion here. Frankly, I'm still on the fence about which of the two preamps I'm going to pull the trigger on. Mick's lifetime warranty is really cool and is a testament to his faith in his products. Having said that, living in the PNW in the US, Don Sachs is practically local, so shipping (should it be required) would obviously be a simpler affair. I retired last Friday. This preamp is going to be a (notionally) final upgrade for my system. I think either one will be a wonderful change to my system. Thanks again - I'll post the results of my decision on this thread and my impressions of the new equipment when I get a chance. Still awaiting a final thumbs-up from SWMBO. Markus
Me too, beautiful looking pre amps, I would like to know how the volume knob feels, if the remote is only for volume and if would hear any noise trough my speakers when no music is playing, my speakers are 8 ohm and 87db. it would be nice if the pre would have a digital readout of the volume, but that would maybe hurt the beautiful design.
The internal layout of Supratek was never considered a secret to those of us ever considering or purchasing the brand. There has been no secrets uncovered here, the OP asked for opinions, and opinions were given. Frankly, Mick’s preamps have received as much, or more free, good press, from users on A’gon as any other product.
Those of you who mention that no one looks inside their equipment reflects your values and sense of curiosity, not all of ours. I applaud Ralph for providing his opinion and Mick for posting a picture on his blog. Peace
Well I find this all a bit unnecessary, but for those who want to read about the wiring of my preamps, I’ve put a page on my blog www.supratekaudio.blogspot.com.au
I was an audio consultant at a HEA shop in a suburb outside DSM during high school in the mid-70’s (Ecologic Ear in Windsor Heights). The shop offered all sorts of gear, ranging from value-oriented to high end audio. I always directed customers to the “back room” showcasing the cream of the store’s offerings, because I wanted them to hear what HEA sounded like, even if they might not be able to afford it. Nobody ever asked me to open up a piece of gear to see the inner wiring arrangement.
@steakster It might help to know my perspective is also that of a service technician. I started working at the Allied Radio service department near my house the day after I graduated from high school. I continued to work in consumer repair while I put myself through college; after I got my degree I continued working consumer repair well into the 1980s.
Some equipment I serviced was extremely well-built internally and often I had to marvel at the pride that companies like MacIntosh or Tektronix obviously took in their work. Knowing what's under the hood has always been a curiosity of mine and I still do repair work on occasion just because I enjoy it.
Ralph, it’s understandable to me that you really don’t see what you’re doing in this thread. It’s clear that you’re trying to broaden the OP’s view to include other products. It’s likely that the OP has single-ended connections but that’s not the point: he has stated his preferences and asked for feedback on those TWO preferences from consumers who own those products.
You have systematically attacked Supratek products out of the gates. To wit:
03-29-2019 1:43pm: “Between the two the Sachs is hands down the winner. Don shows the internals on his website. Google ’Supratek internal photos’ for views of the other.”
04-01-2019 11:22am: ”I often recommend products that are not my own (as seen in this thread) [D. Sachs] and would be happy to recommend yours [Supratek’s] as well, provided I don’t have to worry about someone that took my recommendation getting mad because a fire or shock hazard was present in that equipment because a component came loose in shipment or the like.”
You don’t engage in this behavior in other threads. So I ask why now?
And Ralph and @jetter, I’m not reading anything into any of the posts other than what is posted.
The internal photos comment, the advice to google the unit, that was low and uncalled for (in my humble view).
So- a Google search on a thing is 'uncalled for'?? IMO that's a pretty low bar. As to the posting of the video on our home page that was in **direct response** to this comment, which IMO is untrue:
And yes, point-to-point soldering results is “messier” wiring
presentations than the corresponding PCB soldered wiring. If one wants
aesthetics of what’s presented under the hood but never seen, then buy
an all-PCB component.
I also posted a photo of a Marantz at the same time. The context is important.
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