Supratek or Don Sachs - which way to go?

Thanks guys, the hiss does not bother me when music is playing although sometimes I think the blackness should be blacker so to speak, but maybe it’s my mind playing games with me after noticing the hiss, will try some things out, if no change, I will order me a new set of tubes to see if the hiss goes away.

Hey gryphongryph, thanks for the input. My dedicated 2-channel system has always been tube based. Have SS in different HD family room setup (Anthem MRX 520, AE Aegis speakers/sub). Considered hybrid and Sutherland pre's for 2-channel but tubes seem more true and lifelike for vinyl. I ahve a 1500 LP collection. Sachs and Supratek are said to be well built and easy on tubes, don't expect the need to replace tubes often. 
Previous 2-channel system (15+ yr. setup) -
Jolida 202 (full upgrade last fall)
Antique Sounds ASUSA PP2 phono pre
Jolida JD 100 CD
ACI Force sub
Tyler Acoustics Ref. Monitors       

The noise you are describing seems to be normal — same when turning on and sometimes iff my Chardonnay — and should cause no harm to your speakers no matter when you turn it on or off, but ask Mick if you want. I’d also ask about the hiss. Depending on the amount, that may or may not be normal. Jim Smith, the well known set-up guru in the U.S., says that in his experience systems with a touch of noise sound better than those that are dead silent. But of course, noise can be of different types and volumes, so it’s worth asking as well as checking all connections and making sure cables are well placed.

I got my Cabernet a few weeks ago now, very happy with the quality of construction and the sound is very good, one thing I have noticed is that after a week or so I started noticing hiss from the woofer on my Graham Audio LS 6/9, I am sure it was not there before and I sounds like it is the woofers not tweeters, have not tried the 300b output again since trying it out the second day of ownership, for me the 6SN7 output sounded better and more resolving.
Could the tubes gone bad already ?
A family member did shot down the Hi-Fi the right way, but pre amp first, which gave a small thump from the speakers, but no damage to speakers, I have noticed that I have to wait 3-5 min after my Belles SA30 class A amp has been turned off before turning of my Cabernet, otherwise I hear a small thump and sucking noises from both speakers, if waiting a few minutes everything is fine. My speakers are 87db so I would thing the amp to be totally quiet.
Will investigate in the weekend, but if anyone has any input, I would be grateful.

I one wants neutral tonality, why not go for a good solid state pre, maintenance free and no need for tube nervousness aka Nos Tubes😝

When I asked about the LTA MicroZotl preamps, I was told by both developer and owners that it was tonally "neutral" as opposed to modestly warm. If the amp creates that kind of tonality overall in your system and you like it, then be aware that Mick builds intentionally on the (modestly) warm side. Of course, you can make his builds neutral with careful tube rolling.

I’m struggling with the same question, Sachs pre and phono vs Supratek Cortese with standard tube phono. Building new system (last horray): 
Spatial X5 speakers, being built
Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL40 amp
VPI Scout, JMW 9
Benz Micro L2 cart
Jolida JD100 Tube CD
LAST PIECE OF THE PUZZLE- preamp & phono
listen to 70-80’s R&B, Jazz, Pop & some soft rock (music).
looking for thoughts, suggestions, input - choice between two noted units only. 

Mick is trying to get a new supplier for the domes, I have a Cabernet ready to ship, having waiting for the domes since before Christmas I agreed with Mick to just ship it without the domes, but with the heat sink instead, the domes will the be shipped later ( hopefully)

Not sure how long it will take, probably a week, really looking forward to it.

Think you need to ask Mick.

Hi jslateiv,

Would you please provide the contact info for the US repair tech?

Thanks..

 A little late but in reply to @Soundmasteraudio,..   The 'Domes' on the Supra's have been used in the past as needed to house output transformers.   Not all of the pre's Mick builds needs that 'extra' space as most of the time the transformers used can be easily fit in the chassis.  In this case the Domes are there cosmetically.   In my opinion they look really good and I would opt to keep/have them there even if only cosmetic.   They really kinda define that original 'Supratek' look but some of the newer pre's have Heatsinks in their place as previously mentioned.  My understanding is that the Domes cost Mick a fair amt to have made and they are becoming hard to source form the supplier as well so he is using them more for his 'upper end' builds..

@Highsteam and any one else interested,   Mick has a repair tech in the US to cover any warranty (or other) issues that arise,  so no need to send all the way back to AU. 

For anyone considering a Supra and for what it's worth,  I've had a couple older Supra's in the house over the last few months.  An older Cab/dual with the 101's and a SN7 Grange  along with my personal Cortese LCR.   They are built like tanks and the build quality is top notch.   Forget about the talk about bad wiring,  etc,.   everything in these units is overly secure and all components are readily fastened to terminal strips that are bolted down to the chassis.  Wiring is solid core and 'floats'  (ie,  not zip tied together).  This is no issue as the wire is stiff and does not move like floppy stranded wire.   While maybe not as 'pretty' as wiring that is all zip tied together,  It is still very easy to trace the circuit by eye and make any repairs that could be needed.  Absolutely no issue!

Hello, 'Markus'.

It appears as though you and I might be able to get together in May or June of 2021 to compare our preamps (so long as you haven't found someone else with a DS Model 2  nearby). I anticipate that I'll have been vaccinated by then.

How are you enjoying your Supratek? 

My Sachs has the 1.5 uF Polish caps so good down to 20 and the only amp I've ever owned that got close to that was the Odyssey Kismet at 22k.  Haven't tried the Sachs with any of the amps in combination with the Fritz Carrera Be's which at 86 db would probably eliminate any noise issues.  I suspect than Don's final choice in the "fixed" gain for this version of the preamp was based on what he thought was the best match for his Kootenay amp. Anyway they're both great preamps and you just have to decide which on fits your current or future circumstances. I am not going to get into nitpick differences between the two in terms of Soundstage, Imaging or any of the other "Audiophile" reviewer catch phrases. Look at your system realistically in terms of amp input sensitivity and real speaker sensitivity (not what the manufacturer publishes) and make the choice that best fits your needs.  Sound wise you won't go wrong with either. 

The 10K input sensitivity of my ATC SCM19A actives was also an issue with the Sachs. Don would have needed to use (very good) Mundorf 3 uF silver oil cap instead of his favorite Polish .47 uF oil one for fit in the case, with $125 for the difference. Not an issue with the Supratek.

As you say, one difference is that the Supratek has a separate power supply, which means an umbilical. The one provided is not bad, but my experience is that the SQ effect of umbilicals and even 5v lines can typically be improved significantly (as a textbook engineer, Mick doesn’t believe that could be true). Ironically, I lucked into a cable maker who also doesn’t believe it, but nonetheless offered to make me one in a private deal with the Belden high quality copper with silver plating that he uses for internal wiring of the headphone amps he builds. The result was like taking the Chardonnay a good half step up the sound quality ladder. Revelation Audio also makes them commercially for the Supratek.

My only worry with Supratek is the cost of shipping were a tube socket to go bad.

I actually own the latest versions of both the Sachs and the Chardonnay.  For the most part their sound is very similar with the Sachs leaning a bit more to the neutral side and I have rolled six different sets of tubes through it with only slight variances in tone.  In terms of flexibility Highstream is right about that with the Supratek's Balanced and SE inputs and outputs in addition to it's variable 0-25 db gain control and L/R balance control. A positive or negative based on your outlook is the power supply being in a separate chassis.  The Sachs gets the upper hand in remote functions as the Supratek's only do Mute and Volume.  One thing you really need to take into consideration with the Sachs that you don't with Supratek's is amp and speaker matching. As the newest Sachs has a fixed gain of 18db you can't just pair it up with any speaker and amp combo and not get tube noise.  For example in my Main system the speakers are Verity Otello which the manufacturer specs as 93 db.  That is likely higher than reality and closer to 90 db. With the Sachs in the system I started with the Van Alstine Vision SET 400 amp that I bought the Sachs to pair with. It has an input sensitivity according to the designer of 2.4 volts and the combo is dead silent until you put your ear basically touching the tweeter. When I substituted the Kinki Studio EX-M7 with an input sensitivity of 1.45 volts you could hear tape noise within about 2 feet though not noticeable at the seating position.  So no what you are going to pair it with before you buy.  Neither amp would have had any issue with the Supratek and haven't as you can easily adjust the gain on the amp to eliminate the hiss.  So it's going to come down to which features are more important to you in the end for a very similar sound. 

Having not heard the Sachs, I can't speak to aspects of its SQ, but what impressed me about Mick's vs. Sachs was true balanced ins and outs, a consciously designed modestly warm sound and the lifetime coverage. $500 or so less for the Chardonnay didn't hurt either, but wasn't decisive.

Another music lover here who has Don Sachs/Supratek preamps on the mind.
it’d be great to get further insight re: sonic differences and/or if one could/couldn’t pass a blindfold test listening and comparing these units. :)

My Cortese doesn't have the two shiny domes. It has compact, comparatively low profile heat sinks. I don't know why some preamps have the domes and some don't. I am guessing that it might have been an aesthetic choice Mick made some time in the past and the original purpose was to improve the looks of the heat sinks. But I'm only guessing. 

Seems something to Mick directly, then post the result here if appropriate. If you’re referring to the large canisters on top showing in the photos, I think he changed the design. My Chardonnay doesn’t have them.

I have a question for Mick or anyone else who can provide a logical answer to my observation that exists on most, if not all Supratek products. I took delivery on a Cabernet DHT about a year or two ago. No problems so far, sounds pretty good for being a DHT (Although, not as nice as my Don Sachs pre with those polish caps installed, and for the record, at the time my Supratek pre was being built, i did in fact ask Mick for a certain type of cap to be installed to which he later on said to me when questioned, “Oh i forgot”). Anyway, i digress. I am the kind of person who ALWAYS checks under the hood of any and all audio gear. I like to see parts selection, design, engineering, execution, craftsmanship, etc., etc. However, when i inspected the Suprateks guts i noticed that those two huge unmistakable canisters that are prevalent on virtually all of Micks products were empty, hollow, gutless and useless (As far as i can see). Am i the only one who expected to find toroidal transformers in those canisters? What are their purpose? Is it to deceive or to imply something? I doubt they were added for aesthetics. Can someone please educate me on why they are there?

Yes, my new LED version Sachs2 has mute on the remote control and the pre resets to 0 volume on power up so Not a problem.... and I absolutely love this line pre-amp.

First, my DS pre does have a mute option. Perhaps that went away for the oled display version without balance control.  Second, even with amps on, there is no power up issues to watch for. Very minor tube rush, but that's it. Third, my unit always begins at 0 volume after power off.

A question for those who run the Sachs 2.  Without a mute option, how do you handle the power up process if you, like me, want to leave your Amp on 24/7?  My understanding is the Supratek has the mute option? 

Sorry I have t heard the carver monos, but the Sachs preamp sounds very good with the 275.

Oz

Sorry so late OZ-- thanks for the reply. I found a local guy that had a new Sachs and had his Series 3 he was going to put up for sale so I just bought it. Damn they sound soooo good!!! I've ran it with the tube amp, the ss amps and they sound great togther. The big surprise was when I ran it into the Luxman (seperated the amp/preamp section) --man the class A 30 watts with the Sachs was perfect. I may place my order for the newer version and then decide which Sachs to keep. Do you have any thoughts on the mono bloc of the Carvers?? Thanks OZ

Wjt3

I didn’t really hear a lot of difference in the bass, but then again, my speakers have powered subs built in. What I can tell you is that I too have the Carver 275 and this preamp seems to be an excellent match for it. As you know, the Carver is indeed a wonderful little amp. However, this preamp has me taking a close look at Don’s kt-88 amp as well.

Oz

@wjt3 If you go back in the thread, you’ll find the reasons I went with the Supratek Chardonnay over Sachs. Now that I know what Mick does, I might have gone with 6SN7 Cabernet, though Mick says the DHT 300B has more "bloom." I’ve found some tube rolling is getting a bit more of what I want out of the Chardonnay, not that it was anything but good to start with. Sachs was not a good fit for my needs and what I think is important, SQ aside.

Regarding the question of the shoot-out - sorry, I hadn't noticed the question until this evening. Everything has been all shut down to hell, hasn't it, with this Covid stuff. Including the shootout. 

I'll follow up with the fellow who has the Sachs and see if we can't schedule something when the lockdown is lifted. He was travelling a lot last year. Maybe this year will be different.

Here's what I can say, after owning the Supratek for nearly a year. I think either one is going to provide superb satisfaction. I went with the Supratek partly because I wanted the preamp to include a phono stage. I think Don Sachs sells his phono stage as a standalone. The Supratek includes one. I went with the Cortese model because I wanted the LCR phono stage. 

Below ~$3000 I think the two preamps are probably pretty close. Owners of either one have a strange tendency to fall in love with whichever one they have. And become fanatical cheerleaders for their brand. Can that be a bad thing? I think you'd love either one. 

Best regards and good luck with your journey. Let us know what you decide.

Oh, one other thing. I don't know that the Supratek has "bloom". To me it just sounds like the glass has been taken out of the window between me and the music. It seems, on the one hand, completely accurate and neutral and, on the other hand, incredibly rich and beautiful with saturated tonal colors and nuance.

I love equipment that is made by hard-core fanatics.

Thanks OZ-- does it have some weight to it? Mid-low bass? I'll pair it up to ARC d400mk2 or d240mk2 solid states or a Carver 275 tube amp. I dumped the 10k ARC Vt80 tube amp due to the Carver besting it in my system. Thanks again

The only ARC preamps I’ve owned were an LS3 in the 90s and a Great Northern Sound modified SP9 II about 10 years ago. So I have no experience with the Reference series. That said, at least as it sits right now, the Sachs is pretty neutral but very engaging. You wouldn’t mistake it for a Cary or early CJ and I mean that as a compliment to the Sachs. It has just enough tube bloom as to not be dry, but still very transparent.

Oz

Thanks OZ-- I'm thinking of trying something diff than the Audio Research Ref 6 I have. I tried a new Luxman 590ax2 and liked it for its class A amps. Its in place now. Someone mentioned that the Sachs or Supra was like a combo of the sound of the Lux and Ref 6 (from the preamp section that is)  Thoughts?

FWIW I received my Sachs preamp on Saturday and I am extremely happy with it. I was using a Tortuga LDR which had bested many higher priced preamps in the past, including quite a few that cost more than the Sachs. The thing that surprised me the most was that it is more transparent than the passive LDR. Although I had high hopes for it, I didn't expect the level of transparency I am hearing, and that is with only 15 or so  hours on it so far. 

And of course pictures don't do it justice, this is one beautiful piece.

Just my two cents.

Oz

When will the shootout happen? I'm on the fence between the two Sachs/Supratek--thanks

Thanks @cal3713    for your response. System dependence is definitely the key along with user/owner preferences.  One thing I’ve heard is the Truth works best when the source puts out more than 2v and the input impedance of the amp is less than 2v. I have one amp that has 5v input so it may not be the best pairing but am looking at a tube amp that has less than 1v.  
Looking forward to jaymark’s shootout with the Sachs/Supratek.

@t_ramey I have no doubt that the Truth can be very good in some systems, but it didn't do much in mine.  I had one for about a month and eventually went back to source-direct since the improvement was small.  When I bought a DS preamp, that was certainly not the case.  Instead I had a substantial improvement in sound across the board and will never go back to source-direct.

As always, these impressions are totally system dependent (mine is posted here).  There are plenty of people who's ears & systems I trust who have thoroughly enjoyed the Truth.   

Hope you understand the limitations of a direct comparison by someone else, unless they talk your audio language (which, speaking generally, is not often the case, at least not without repeated questioning). It’s like comparing the effect of a tube change, something I posted about the other day on a What’s Best Forum in relation to Lampi dac and Supratek Chardonnay. I have no doubt one of the two tubes, the one most transparent, detailed, lively, articulate, etc. would be the favorite of most, "the best," but I preferred the one that is less transparent, etc., because instead of finding myself focused on the first’s wonderful analytics, the second draws me into the music emotionally. Yet, there are a whole lot of people, if not most these days, for whom analytics, "sonic effects," are their emotional draw. So is the person doing the comparison the same or similar to you? It is no different with preamps. In fact, the problem is even more difficult with tube gear, because the comparison may be made on the basis of the provided tubes, which may or may not be of equal cost/sonics and thus the best presentation of the developers’ current ideas about voicing. Some tube rolling might change the comparison dramatically.

I chose the Supratek Chardonnay for a few reasons:
- true balanced outputs at no extra cost vs. faux balanced outputs, meaning impedance issues running to low impedance amps (active speakers), and additional costs for dealing with it (cost for different value caps)
- sound intentionally on the warm side (I don’t see anything about tone/pitch in the Sachs’ write up or in customer comments, or in discussing the sonics of the provided/recommended tubes)
- separate power supply
- lifetime transferable warranty vs. "one full year" (in bold) to the original buyer for the Sachs. Record of units lasting decades.
- a good case made for point to point wiring, however "messy"
- lower upfront cost and possible tube rolling costs not that much

@jaymark   How does the Truth preamp compare to the Sachs in your system? Yes, thanks for taking up the cause to do a direct comparison between the Sachs and Supratek!

@jaymark Please do report back if you do try those competitors!  I'd love to hear the report.  I'd also recommend replacing the Miflex capacitors on the primary outputs if you do get the modding itch.  Not sure it it's covered in this thread or another, but I have Duelund tinned copper CASTs and love them.  And few other users have put in VH Audio ODAMs and said similarly superlative things about the change.

I have spent decades as a hardcore audiophile.  Have had at least 15 preamps and that number or more amps ranging from solid state, class D, hybrids, and tubes.   I peruse these threads all of the time which is how I found out about Sachs preamp which I have in my main system.  The reports of the Sonics from the Supratek preamps is also quite impressive.  Sachs and Supratek both sound like they have disruptive products that audiophiles will hear and ask themselves., why should I spend more.  In my exercise room I have the even cheaper Schilling preamp that is quite good.

I often have my equipment modded so the internal layout is important to my modder.  I have no desire to mod the Sachs preamp as it sounds phenomenal.  Since I have the audiophile disease in a bad way, I want to try one of the Supratek preamps and possibly one of the dehavilland preamps just for comparison.  However, I dont give a rat's ass about the internal aesthetics of the gear when considering these purchases.  

I am a sensible audiophile.  This descriptor though is probably an oxymoron lol.  I would hate to be a manufacturer of high end preamps going up against the three (two of which I own) previously mentioned preamps.  Just my two cents from a non-insider...

Great question.  I'm also interested in hearing the answer to this question.

Has anyone tried Grant Fidelity's Shuguang Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE?

Not yet.  We've had trouble getting our schedules to line up. Still want to do it. 

@markusthenaimnut.  

Did you ever get the chance to compare your Supratek to a Don Sachs? One of your previous posts mentioned having this opportunity so was just curious if that ever happened.

Yes he does...Mick Alluded to the fact that a "famous insider/reviewer is now using his Cardonnay pre as one of his reference...Look at Dick Olsher ...his latest review of the  Luxman MQ-88uC Stereo Power Amplifier(Oct 8 2019) for the Absolute Sound

I noticed that Dick Olsher [The Absolute Sound] is now using a Supratek Chardonnay.

I also want to ACKNOWLEDGE one more item....I said this b 4 ..But we have 2 Great Pres...under 3K. D|S... and Micks Latest Gen 3....It is every thing he already stated....Its Wider,,,Deeper...More Dynamic than any of his previous models....I Know first hand because my last great pre was a BAT 32se(and that pre retailed for $8500) and my Gen 3 Chardonnay was $2000 and delivered to my Home In Pittsburgh....and it beat it down to in every audio perimeter!!!...Dont Believe me?... then order one....what do you have to lose?....just in case,,,,i have NO interest in Supratek ....besides what Audio Heads have been saying for the past 25 yrs....TRUTH!!

I feel the same way!...I have been using the  SHUGUANG WE6SN7 Vacuum Tubes in my (new gen 3) Supratek for the last 3 months and they are as good if not better than any nos tube combo's that i have tried(at least 4 nos combos) than the stock Russian tubes....and the beauty of this tube besides how SWEET they sound( in MY OPNION )is that they are readly available and not at the MERCY of all these nos SCAM sellers!...TRUTH!

@ whitesix

I have been using the Psvane WE6SN7 and KT 88 Plus in my Sach Amp and Pre for over 3 months and are the best tubes I have ever owned/tried; better than many of my NOS variants...

Wig

Gents,
Coming my way next week is Don Sachs' newest iteration of his preamp.  I had one of the first original preamps he made and it was and is fantastic.  His cap and wiring upgrades took it to even greater levels of performance.

His new preamp has has many enhancements and will come with the very fine WE6SN7plus 6SN7 tubes.  I could have lived with Don's original preamp very happily, but his new interaction of his preamp promises to be a significant SQ improvement.  Plus, now I will have a remote control.  As I have noted before, his KT88-based amplifier is similarly outstanding.   Retail price of the new preamp with the excellent tubes is under $3K.  

Thanks Markus for the info....going to look into to that item...keep in touch ...I like your Audio style and advice!!!...Peace