Product purchasing decisions based on manufacturer proximity and convenient shipping. That warrants a new thread.
OP: have you listened to either preamp?
OP: have you listened to either preamp?
Supratek or Don Sachs - which way to go?
I'm preparing to replace my SS preamp with a tube unit and have read with great interest many threads on this board. This is where I learned about Don Sachs model 2 preamps. They sound like what I'm looking for and those who own them consistently express their satisfaction with them.
Now I've just been reading and learning about the Supratek lineup. Wow. These also sound like fantastic works of art. Leaving me with a new question about which way to go.
Thoughts? Advice? Experience? Anyone care to share?
Now I've just been reading and learning about the Supratek lineup. Wow. These also sound like fantastic works of art. Leaving me with a new question about which way to go.
Thoughts? Advice? Experience? Anyone care to share?
184 responses Add your response
04-01-2019 11:22am:@celander If you PM or email me I would be happy to answer that directly. |
@markusthenaimnut @mickm9 although I do own DS-2 and pretty satisfied withit I did not know about Supratek when I purchased my DS-2 but this hobby is a rabbit hole being retired myself I spend quite some time with my system visiting audiophile society get to gathers over a period of couple of years I tend to agree with michm9 , their is something "magical" about point to point wiring & simplicity of circuits and proves true talent of a good engineering design So congratulations on your decision ! |
If you carefully read the pages on the Don Sachs website, his custom phono preamp, line stage preamp and 60 wpc power amp are all based on the circuit boards he gets from VTA - http://tubes4hifi.com/ You can buy all of these things as kits from VTA, or have them assembled by VTA as well, for quite a bit less. What Don gets you is a much better look and possibly some minor tweaks. |
Proud owner of a 16 year old Supratek Chardonnay here. This has been the one piece of equipment that I haven’t changed as I upgraded every other piece of equipment in my system (most more than twice). It blows away every preamp I have owned, auditioned or heard. I have not experienced the Don Sachs amps so this is in no way an indictment of them. I have had questions through the years about different tubes and Mick has always responded to my emails and questions promptly (even as annoying as I may have been). There is something to be said for being able to communicate with the guy that built your your equipment. Jared |
I have both a Don Sachs phono stage and one of his preamps. The preamp is probably an early model, one of the first with remote. Both are superb. Because of the pricing of Don's equipment there is a tendency to add "for the money" to review comments. While it is true that Don's gear costs less than some comparable equipment that should not be the driver of the buying decision. For instance, I also have a Pass XP 20 preamp which cost, new, so much that I would rather not say in case my wife's people are monitoring my Agon activity. I keep both preamps because I like to change the sound of my system now and then....my wife still works so I can do this during the day and she does not notice. Is one better than the other? All I can say is that they are different. And that I am glad I am lucky enough not to have to make a choice. I will say that Don's preamp is by a large margin the best tube preamp I have had in my system, and I have had a few. Don is a class act, always found him to be helpful and straightforward and goes out of his way to help a customer. I have asked many stupid questions, sometimes about equipment other than his own and he always takes the time to answer. |
Bought a Don Sachs all in preamp a couple years back. Every component upgrade I've down has been a incremental increase in sound that I wanted to hear.....until I slid the Don Sachs into my system. It was one of those moments that just had me smiling on every tune I listened to. I havent heard the other pre's mentioned. But I will say that there were posts where folks said they wanted the guts of the unit to look good. All this time I thought this was an audio experience, not visual. I'll be damned before I'll choose a component for looks rather than sound. And I will say I have a cousin with a Supratec in another State also coupled with some very nice equipment and he swears by it. We both would love to swap out to compare in each of our systems but distance makes it impractical. Good luck with your choice. |
I am in the camp with point-to-point wiring. Since repairing audio components for many years the majority of repairs were caused by heat and circuit boards. Think Melos and Counterpoint for starters. Neatness is nice but I have seen many designs were the lower voltage and higher voltage wires and neatly tied together. Also, most of the point-to-point designs can be upgrade with better parts to improve the sound of the unit with ease. My experience includes rebuilding power amps with PTP wiring such as Counterpoint, CJ, etc. In every case, the PTP rebuild sounded better that the circuit board. That does not mean that a circuit board design cannot sound good, it is just my opinion. My designs are all PTP wired though for what I believe is a better way to build a component. BTW, I have also modified a few Supratek preamps early designs. I have not seen one in many years for repair or modification/upgrade. In comparing 6SN7 tube and 6DJ8/6922 designs they both can sound excellent. IMO only, the smaller tubes has a very sweet mid-range with an alive sound that can become a little shouty or harsh when pushed somewhat. The 6SN7 typically offers a more relaxed sound, slightly less alive sound, but more 3D soundstage. Both can sound excellent. To me the biggest sound improvement comes with the DHT preamp tube designs. The DHT IMO is a cross between the best qualities of SS and tubes. You get the dynamics, speed of the smaller tube with the 3D soundstage and sweetness of the larger tube. I also build both designs with the 6SN7 easier to build versus the DHT design. Again, these are just my opinions and they are generalizations to emphasis the sound and possibly help others understand why things sound the way they do. I hope my posts are helpful to some. Happy Listening. You can see my work on my Audiogon page. |
I am using the VTA SP14 upgraded version and have to say it is noticeably better then anything else i have tried . http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14-2018.htm |
I really liked my Supratek Cortese. I sold it to buy an Audio Research LS25 MKii preamp, which turned out to be a step backwards sonically. The Cortese sounded great with the included EH tubes, so tube rolling was not necessary. It also had a very nice built in phonostage. Mick was great to deal with. The only drawback for me was that the power supply got hot and it warmed up my room a little too much, which is why I started looking for other preamps. I really liked the sound of my system with the Cortese, though. |
Markus - based on many reviews on both the Sachs and Supratek I believe you’re going to be happy one way or another. I’ve experimented with many high quality preamps with different tube configurations, and to me the 6sN7 is king, and not by a small amount. So cool that there were so many great tubes that were produced over the years you have many tube rolling options. Most are reasonably priced (comparatively speaking) though my favourite in most cases is the 40s TungmSols. These are not cheep, however RCAs from the 50s are plentiful, inexpensive and sound great. i have the pleasure of owning some other 6SN7 based Pre’s not on your short list and can confirm when a designer does a good job of it, the results are stellar. With each brings its house sound the the pros and cons that go with it. Further system synergy is so important, with all the tube rolling possibilities, you should be able to find your nirvana with either. i hope someone can chime in and provide a candid comparison with the Sachs and Supratek from the same system... I would love know too! i have a Supratek Chenin. Great preamp, and I love the dynamics it has. Mick is spot on here. I own a Modright LS100. (Supratek, is easily better to my ears).I have an Antique Sound Lab Flora, another one that is very good along with an Wyetech Opal, stella preamp! (Not in the same price category) The Opal betters the Supratek and ASL (my systems, ears and sonic priorities) if anyone in the Toronto Canada area has a Sachs, bring it over and we could have a comparison and I would be happy to report the findings. Other 6SN7 preamps I’ve been curious about and would welcome a chance to hear in my system included; deHavaland Ultraverbe, Atma-Sphere MP-3, and TRL Dude. Either of the two on your list have a plethora of universal praise from many well regarded forum members, I think you cant make a bad choice here, though it would be optimal to listen to both in your system before you purchase. All the best with your journey! |
@facten The Syrah was replaced by the Chenin around 2003. The main difference was the tubes used in the preamp phono section and the Chenin uses the Cortese phono circuit. The Chardonnay model is the current line stage iteration with no Phono section. I think the Cortese would be the closest current model with Phono. Call Mick to be sure. Forgive me as is been 18 month since I did a direct comparison between the Modwright and the Supratek. (I should do another soon) What I do remember is in areas of dynamics, palpability, tonal presentation the Supratek was clearly superior. More meat on the bones, it pulled you into the music better. A warmer presentation too. The Modwright was a flatter, less engaging presentation and was somewhat grainy comparatively. This in spite of the fact I rolled RCA’s 40-60s, Sylvanians, Tung Sols from the 40s. The other odd thing is the Modwright would expose microphonics in tubes that were dead quiet in the preamps. The Modwright is a good piece, my findings are the Supratek is a step up, and the Wyetech be better still to my ears, and systems. |
@ianderson Thanks for your response. I have the Modwright . I will say that I have never had any issues with tube microphonics coming through (have used NOS RCA and Sylvania; and new production Sophia Electric and Shuguang Black Treasures ); also haven't experienced a grainy texture. That being said I'm always interested in upgrading my listening experience so I appreciate your sharing your experience with your preamps as possible options |
The Modwright is a fine Preamp and particularly with good NOS tubes, it sounds fantastic. However It’s only when you compare it to the Supratek does one draw the conclusion it’s a little more grainy. Let’s put it other way..... the Supratek more; dynamic, palpable, smoother, organic with a bigger, deeper soundstage etc.... it’s more like the real thing. You’ve got to hear it in the same system for comparison. I love any preamp that leverages a 6SN7, personally, I believe they are the best audio tube for preamps and power amp for driver positions too. Though I’ve never heard one, I’d bet I’d like the Shiit Freya too. Those 40s Tung Sols sound out of this world, unfortunately they have a tendency in some circuits the be microphonic, yet in others it’s quiet. (Wyetech, ASL, and Supratek quiet, yet Modwright noisy) RCAs from all the eras I tried were quiet in no mater what pre I put them in. (unless they were altogether bad) It’s the nature of the beast. I have no doubt that you can find tubes the stay quiet in the Modwright and last a long time. The factory tubes I started with were quiet, the SQ was not in the same league of the NOS tubes from the 50s or 60s though. As fine as the Modwright is with great NOS tubes, there are better Pre’s out the IMO. Back to the OPs question, has anyone done a side by side with a Supratek and a Sachs? I would love to know what the differences are! |
I never heard Don Sachs preamp. I have a Supratek Sauvignon. It was modded with better parts but, the circuit wasn't changed. It is a wonderful piece and sounds great. I have it for about 13 years and is the only piece that I haven't changed, that says how much i love this piece. Never had any problems in all those years. I'll never get rid of it |
I have had my Supratek Cabernet 300B preamp for about ten years.Like others here a lot of other equipment has come and gone in that time but the Supratek has stayed.No other preamp I have tried sounds as 3D,as clear or as musically communicative.I recently compared it to a $20,000 Audio Flight Strumento preamp and as good as that is the Supratek was much better. |
I’m sure you’ll enjoy either of the preamps, I haven’t heard the Sachs, but can testify to Mick’s Supratek...I have the Syrah model and wouldn’t trade it out of the system for anything else. Running the tube pre with solid state linn amps with a linn TT. Love the combo and the amp really makes the system sing...brought it to a whole new level... |
Hi all, Don Sachs here. I just want to clear something up. Yes, you can buy a kit from Roy and build a great preamp. I use the same board. I suggested a number of improvements to that board and now kit builders can have them. That said, my preamp will be 25% or more better than the kit. The only thing my preamp shares with the kit is the bare board. All parts choices are mine, I have changed the operating point of the tubes, I have improved the power supply considerably, etc... I have my recipe that has been worked out over 4-5 years. That said, if you build a kit you will get a wonderful preamp for very little money and have the satisfaction of building it. If you get one of mine you get a warranty, and considerably better performance. As for the other preamps mentioned, I am sure they are very good and the manufacturers take great care in building them. I cannot comment on their sonic qualities as I have not hear them. cheers, Don |
A bit long .. Have been out of A'gon for a while and accidentally bumped into this thread while checking something in Mick's site; felt I owe it to myself, my fellow audio hobbyists and to the truth to comment... Have been a Supratek user for over 14 years; my present Grange full function preamp is my third unit from Mick. Have had many communications with Mick over the years regarding fine tuning and "improvements" to my unit that the audiophile bug propelled me into... All of them were patiently and courteously attended by Mick although I suspect in retrospect that many of them seem very silly and unnecessary... A couple years back, after several mods, parts switching and "improvements" made to my unit by a local tech, my unit developed a problematic intermittent noise that no matter the many attempts to correct by various local techs could not get rid of... Because of the changes and mods to the unit, I was a bit reluctant to contact Mick, but nothing else worked so I finally did and candidly explained the situation hoping he could help my situation. Without hesitation he told me to send the unit to him that he would fix it... Long story shortened, a few weeks later I got my unit back with both the line and the phono circuits updated to current design while working around keeping some of the expensive parts I unjudiociously had put in and that he did not necessarily agreed with, but that after auditioning he considered were not detracting from the unit’s performance ... He charged a token amount for the updating of the circuits snd for the parts he added and replaced... I do not know of many other manufacturers that would had accepted the unit, corrected the damage I had caused, and upgraded the unit with the dedication and respect he did. He did much more than respond to a guarranty that he could had justifiably refused; that is my experience with Mick's lifetime guarranty... As to the internal wiring issue, to me it is a plus... the "spagheti" type layout (as he calls it)... is more robust, precise, efficient, optimized to the specific audio/performance goals, and more reliable; to me it looks more artisanal, more custom made, more "form follow function" type than the cold "cookie cutter" layouts some other PCB board designs present, no offense intended... For a more technical and detailed explanation refer to Mick's blog at http://supratekaudio.blogspot.com/2019/04/wiring.html I do not know Don Sach’s products; upon reading through this thread, went to its site and read about them... they seem a very interesting alternative... Made by whom seems a pasionate, dedicated proponent. A nicely presented, clean layout american made product at very realistic prices make them very worthy of consideration... I have met Ralph years back at an Audio show; he was a very nice, down to earth and delightfull gentleman. Have enjoyed his posts in A’gon through the years and his pasion and willingness to take time to share his, knowledge and experience with us, more common audio hobbyists ... On this occasion however, in my humble opinion, he crossed a bit the line of respect and consideration to a fellow manufacturer... Many years back a close friend was a dealer for Atmasphere so I have very well experienced various of his products closely. Recently I had at my system one of his preamps... Although I have some issues with the appearance and the high quantity of tubes of his products, I respect and consider Atmasphere pretty good audio products. I personally, however, would never prefer an Atmasphere preamp over any of Mick’s offerings. My personal preference... Again, in my opinion, if you are looking for a vivid, highly realistic and and balanced audio experience from a unit designed and build directly by the expert hands of a pasionate, audio artisan with 30+ years and hundreds of proven units all over the world, do yourself a favor and give serious consideration to Supratek... Sincerely and respectfully, Jose Rodriguez |
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The system sometimes creates false error prompt messages that indicate the contributor’s post was rejected when in fact it was not. It’s happened to me more than once, which usually prompts me to resubmit the post. I recommend copying one's text and exiting back to the thread to see if one’s post went onto the thread. |
We well I need to chime in on this thread and it’s been quite a while since I’ve posted anything on any audio site. I’ve owned a Supratek Syrah preamp for many years. I had one problem with the power button early on and contacted Mick. He quickly sent me another switch free of charge and I bought this preamp used. Excellent customer service. I have not heard Don Sach preamps, I bet they’re excellent. I can only speak for my Supratek which is probably going to be the last preamp I own. I tried many other preamps prior to the Supratek. I owned a Modwright SWL 9.0 preamp before this and kept it to directly compare. The Modwright had excellent detail extension and dynamics, but it was a little too clinical for me. The Supratek had all the detail extension and dynamic, plus it was bigger sounding, and natural. It doesn’t analyze. It just makes music and flows with emotion. I am a professional pianist and know what live music sounds like. I am very critical on the way it should sound. I still on my original tubes and it’s been over 10 years now I believe. I don’t think you can go wrong with these preamps. I’d bet if he had a dealer network they’d be three to four times more expensive. True bargain! |
@cal3713 Congrats on your purchase of the Don Sachs preamp. I'm waiting on one myself--in fact, he's working on mine this week and may be ready to ship in a few more days. Did you also buy his KT88 amp? I did, though it will be several more weeks before it is done, and therefore quite awhile before I can hear what kind of magic they make together. I figured, in for a penny, in for a pound. As for the Supratek, I have owned two of them, the Syrah and the Chenin and truly enjoyed them both. In fact, I'd say that selling the Chenin is one of my few regrets in audio. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one, though I would not be keen on shipping it back to Australia if it needed repair. Mick was great to work with and may well have tech support in the US. I don't know, but would check if I were buying one. This may well be a case where you can't go wrong. I certainly hope so anyway. Look forward to comparing notes on Don's preamp. |
@waltersalas I did not buy his amplifier. I am curious, but I ended up building my own First Watt F4 (25W class A, zero negative feedback). Since upgrading from Coincident Super Eclipse IIIs to Pure Reference Extremes, I’ve been trying to better my Coincident Frankenstein SET mono-blocks because the PREs need more power to shine (primarily in bass). I’ve tried a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400, Pass Labs XA25, and Atma-sphere M60s. In all cases, the Franks won out despite the improved bass performance. Eventually I decided to build an F4 to supplement my Franks as a booster amp on the PREs’ bass cabs. The F4 has no voltage gain and only provides current to the input signal. Surprisingly -- on these speakers -- the F4 was actually the best of all by itself. It has almost all of the inner detail of the Franks, but with the best bass control of the amplifiers I’ve tried. It’s also the clearest, with a super low noise floor and no discernible distortion. After discovering this, I sadly put my Franks up for sale (still available if anyone is interested), bought the parts to build a second F4 so I could have two 50W monoblocks, and ordered the Sachs preamp to provide voltage gain. Driving the F4 by itself, my dac maxes out at around 90db. I’m very surprised by this outcome, but I guess it’s just a situation of stumbling onto a really good amp/speaker match. I presume the F4 isn’t more widely loved because: a) it’s an older design not available new, and b) it shines best on an efficient speaker with a relatively flat impedance curve. I’m probably most surprised that it surpassed the Pass XA25 since that’s providing the same amount of power out of a newer, presumably better, circuit from the same designer. Just got lucky I guess... In the 6 moons review of the F4 the key descriptive phrase was: "relaxed ultra resolution." That is a brilliant description of its sound. My longer description is smooth, slightly sweet, and ultra clean with an enormous soundstage and great layering. Plus I can keep it on 24/7 and not have to fret about my tube life. Can’t wait to get the Sachs pre in the chain to see how it changes the sound. Music is already the best I’ve ever had and I’m hopeful for much more. |
