Stylus Profile Discussion

Looks like the second post by Millercarbon nailed it on the head.  You guys go on and on about absolutes which never really pan out in music reproduction.

If your goal is real music reproduction then you are going to have to listen. Or better yet adjust listen and compare.  Because someone plays with a few machines and write in a scientific format, does not constitute a proof in audio reproduction.  

So I guess the moral of the story is if you want read how great your playback system is match your system up with all stuff you can read.  Or maybe you want to listen to it for your subjective enjoyment regardless if the tone deaf, self proclaimed experts, tell you the numbers on the variables they chose are wrong.  How that for a run on sentence??? I really care about Music , grammar not so much!!!

Enjoy the ride
Tom

The information on the record is on the left and right side of the groove wall, records used for decades with conical stylus degrade in sound, but if you will look under a microscope on conical stylus you will see contact area like a dots. This contact area only wear off a small part of the vinyl groove wall. But the actual groove wall is deeper, and huge part of this groove wall with music on it remains untouched by conical stylus (with very small contact area). Would you argue about it ?

The goal of the MicroRidge, Stereohedron or SAS is wider contact area, it is a line, not a dot/points. This line goes deeper and has much better contact with untouched part of the used old vinyl. The tracking force distributed over the larger contact area and has much less record wear factor.

Playin’ OLD (used) records with LineContact stylus is a clear benefit, because if you’re playing those record with the same conical styli then you exploring the same worn part of the groove wall just like previous owners for decades with their awful cartridges.

I know what i’m talking about, because 90% of my record collection is vintage (used) vinyl from the 50s - 80s.


The owner of modern re-issues are free of this problem, because nobody used their records for 30 years with conical or elliptical tip on cheap turntables. And even if they are buying a user reissues the time of use is very short compared to 40 years old records.

There are many articles about it online if you’re still not aware of it.

The record are very sensitive to wear factor, but diamond is not sensitive because diamond is the hardest material in the world. Vinyl is not. However, the diamond stylus life span in 2000 hrs max, so think about vinyl life span. Vintage records definitely worn, but where exactly on the groove wall they are worn is depends on the stylus profile.

To realize record wear factor quicker you can make a dubplate (accetate) aka lacquer disc at any pressing plant or disc cutting studio. The accetate degrade in sound much quicker than vinyl. Also styrene records degrade in sound very quick compared to vinyl. 

From what I have learned from logic is that ''if the premise are not
true'' the deduced statement can't be true. There are to many
assumptions by your deductions dear chakster. If I am well informed
the records (old and new) are not as ''sensitive'' as you assume.
Even 5 g VTF seems to be no problem. There is also ''elasticity'' of
the vinyl involved. If your ''dramatic'' description is true we who
use ''modern styli shapes'' + tonearms with very good bearings 
would throw away all records made before, say, 70is . BTW
nobody assume, to my knowledge, that records are perfect. 
There are then obviously other reasons why we love them.

mijostyn

Cleeds, yes in many circles you are correct but it does depend on how you look at the angles. At any rate 92 degrees for most profiles is to close to dead vertical 70 to 75 degrees is more like it. Or 15 to 20 degrees if you look at it the way my old brain does, degrees off vertical. I’m not sure where this 92 degree thing came from ... If you put this axis at 92 degrees you’ll almost be dragging the tonearm on the edge of the record. But I will have to review the subject to see what modern convention is.

There are long-standing, widely-recognized definitions for Stylus Rake Angle and Vertical Tracking Angle, and those are the definitions companies such as Shure recognized. There is no "modern convention" that has replaced those clear definitions, and I don’t understand why you seek to reinterpret them. I suggest you read the March, 1981 Audio magazine for the article by Jon Risch that graphically explains these angles and explores why they are critical.

But this may also mean that stylus
shape is not as important as, say, chakster thinks.

From what i've learned the stylus shape is very important for those you listen to vintage vinyl (aka used original vinyl, not a modern reissues or new releases). The majority of the records from the 60's and 70's have been played with conventional styli for decades by previous users (not audiophiles) on average turntables, cartridges. Most likely it was a conical stylus not in the best condition. The groove walls of the records can be slightly worn by the conical when we're buying used old records. But the conical stylus can't go deep in the grooves as Shibata, Stereohedron, MicroRidge, MicroLine, F.Gyger, VdH or Replicant-100. Using high-end profiles like that can dramatically improve the sound as the diamond rides in the groove precisely and in case with vintage used records it rides in previously untouched part of the groove walls! Basically my passion is vinyl from the 70's era, playin' such vinyl with conical or elliptical tip is the worst scenario. 

Cleeds, yes in many circles you are correct but it does depend on how you look at the angles. At any rate 92 degrees for most profiles is to close to dead vertical 70 to 75 degrees is more like it. Or 15 to 20 degrees if you look at it the way my old brain does, degrees off vertical. I'm not sure where this 92 degree thing came from perhaps they are measuring to the oncoming facet of the stylus. I'm measuring from the long axis through the tip of the stylus which I think is easier to eyeball when you set the tonearm up. If you put this axis at 92 degrees you'll almost be dragging the tonearm on the edge of the record. But I will have to review the subject to see what modern convention is.

put a micro-line/micro-ridge on the xl88 cantilever... and then things might be different.

A cartridge is a complex system, and comparisons are difficult.
 
Only single cause analysis can bring any of it out to a point that we can begin to properly ponder.

Thus change the one thing - the stylus profile. And see what happens.

What about ''indirect conclusion''? Our most productive member
from Australia ( I mean productive in our forum) just demonstrated
or suggested that Sony XL 88D is ''the best '' there is. The shape
of its stylus is super elliptical. But this may also mean that stylus
shape is not as important as, say, chakster thinks. 

glennewdick

I will have to disagree with you about the 20degree rake angle for VTA that’s far too much IMO the cutter was at 3degrees ...

You seem to be confusing SRA (which should be about 92 degrees, or so) and VTA (which should be about 20 degrees, or so.)

And you are simply mistaken that a cutter head would be set at 3 degrees.

Why did Shure call its famous cartridge series the "V-15?"

"V" = Vertical Tracking Angle."15" = Nominal tracking angle, in degrees.

I will have to disagree with you about the 20degree rake angle for VTA that's far too much IMO the cutter was at 3degrees so optimally that should also be the best for the VTA of the stylus. and note that 3degrees is actually digging in to the record not pulling over it  if that makes sense, +3deg.  

I also find there is a noticeable difference between the less detailed conical to the line, shibata, etc. Its quite obvious in my system when I switch between conical and a VDH stylus.  

(for the sake of discussion, I'll adopt an overly strong corner stance and opinion, etc)

Microridge and microline have what might be considered the best wear aspects. That they tend to sound the same until the end, and the end is obvious, sound quality wise.
That they wear, as they age, how this happens, over time...is the least damaging to the grooves. Throughout the wear/aging... the profile remains the same. That is why they were made to be (shaped) as they are.

Other profiles change their sound qualities much more as they go through their wearing down. And they have more capacity to produce damage to the grooves as they age. As the shape of the wear area can damage the grooves, due to misshaping of the wear area.

That all the other shapes will generally, eventually produce sharp (enough) cutting edges as they wear and reach the end..... and actually begin to cut away the grooves, microscopically. (Ieeeeeeeee! Ahhh! make it stop!)

https://www.dynavector.com/etechnical/microstylus.html

(that website page has some pretty bad engrish stuff going on, but one can get the point, regardless)

Thus, things like shibata stylus shapes may be considered to sound great, better than microgroove/microridge, in some minds. Sure. But then..the wear problem raises it’s ugly head.

Shibata is the hot ticket and buzzword, these days, it seems.

But I’d prefer the microridge/microline, due to the wear aspects. As, we use these dang things, over time... and they wear down, over time... and the shibata shape does not have a perfect wear profile, over time -unlike the other top contender of microridge/microline.

A final outcomes in analysis goes, there is the microridge and the microline and ---then the rest.  (fine line, shibata, replicant, van den hul, fritz Geiger, line contact, elliptical and conical)

The rest eventually produce groove damage.

The microridge/microline, does not, or so much less, that it is negligible, in comparison. The wear period and aging in-situ and in use.... becomes the entire subject and the very point itself.

mijostyn

A stylus rake angle around 20 degrees is fine. You can only tell a difference at the extremes and every record is different anyway.

You're confusing SRA with VTA - they are two different things. SRA should be set around 92 degrees, VTA around 20 is usually fine.

The main advantage to the "fine-line" type styli shapes is higher frequency response - that's what they were originally developed for.

1+ Millercarbon. Darn millercarbon, you are starting to make sense!
All of the top cartridges are using one form of fine line profile or another and I am beginning to think it is more for marketing than anything, another one of those secret sauces. Regardless of the profile a cartridge has to be set up correctly to minimize distortion and record wear particularly overhang, offset and azimuth. I'm one of those people who think VTA is not so critical. A stylus rake angle around 20 degrees is fine. You can only tell a difference at the extremes and every record is different anyway. I saw from 18 to 23 degrees once. It can actually change through the record with modulation generally going lower with higher modulation. A tonearm without a VTA tower is not a deal breaker for me. But to do it right you need one of these,    http://www.analogueartisan.com/Reference.html

Agreed. I have Shibata, extended line contact, Paratrace and Microscanner and never worried any more than dialing in VTA when it came to setting them up.

Advanced stylus profile setup problem is a myth. I have no problem to align any stylus profile, this is what a good tonearm/headshell can handle. The less sensitive is only conical, but it is also the worst and the cheapest. In my opinion a cartridge alignment with electronic microscope and some very special exotic devices is not necessary. Your arm must have VTA on the fly, a good bonus is headshell with azimuth adjustment. Dr.Feickert protractor is a must have for any turntable and cartridge. The most complicated profile in my collection was Replicant-100 and i did not notice any different in setup process at all. The best profiles last much longer (up to 2000 hrs), so i don’t understand why do i need those cheap profiles in high-end system if they last only about 300-500hrs and does not read the grooves correctly even properly aligned?

Here ya go!
https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information

I have no idea whatsoever what the stylus profile is on my Koetsu. Just to show how much it matters.

This is probably just about the last thing you need to worry about. Oh, you can get bogged down in this all day long. Just watch, as this thread goes on and on and on, never getting anywhere. Because there is no there there. Not in terms of what you asked. Not in any terms that really matter.

What matters is how the thing sounds. What stylus profile has to do with that you can let me know after reading the pages and pages this question will generate. Let me know if you learn anything. Anything at all.

What matters is how the thing sounds. Anyone telling you they can tell how its gonna sound from stylus profile (or cantilever construction, or metallic purity, or gauss, or pretty much any of the bajillion stories we've been told to swallow) is full of it. 

Just read the reviews, read the user comments, make sure there's enough output for whatever phono stage you're using, and buy the one you like. Regardless of whatever the dang stylus profile is.