Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable. I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline. The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm. By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left). You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm. Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added. Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:- VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
Raul raises a good point. How accurately are the various cutting lathes spinning? This is a whole different topic.
It does lead nicely into long term average speed accuracy.... There is a trend to show how incredibly accurate peoples DD TTs run, posting videos using the timeline over extended runs. This is a great demonstration of how accurately a TT's long term speed control can be.
But how important is an average 33.3333333 rpm? Lets say TT1 runs at an average 33.333 and TT2 runs at an average 33.334. A 1000hz tone cut accurately at 33.333 would of course be played back at 1000hz on TT1, but it would be higher on TT2 at 1000.03hz. I don't claim to be able to hear this difference.
What I think is important is the TTs dynamic speed accuracy. How does it behave under a varying load. I believe that we are sensitive to real time changes in pitch. But do not hear them as such. Halcro describes the Raven as being more relaxed than the Victor. This general description pretty much covers many BD/DD comparisons. Clearly we are hearing differences but not describing these in terms of pitch. We use different descriptors..
The timeline only tells us how long it takes for the platter to make one rotation. Confirming, or not, that it took 1.8 seconds at its 33.33 setting. That is, was its average speed 33.33 or not. It does not tell us anything about what happened to the platters dynamic speed during that rotation.
Yeah, yeah, the platters inertia will save you, I don't think so. There are no free lunches.
Chris.
Many thanks for the input of which I completely concur.
Phoenix, Thank you for embellishing on my response to Atma-sphere re my point that operating a motor with 3-phase AC synchronicity does not per se eliminate cogging. I am a rank amateur on this subject with only a good college level background in physics (and a lifelong habit of thinking like a scientist). But I was a bit puzzled by your statement: "A 24 pole motor turns at half the speed of 12 pole motor so the frequency of the cogs is identical in both (120Hz)." In a direct-drive turntable, doesn't the motor have to turn at 33.3333 rpm, regardless of the number of poles? And therefore might there not be a theoretical advantage to having double the number of poles?
Oh, and thanks for clearing up the many ambiguous on-line websites that don't come right out and say that coreless motors are free of cogging. It makes perfect sense (and I think I hear the benefits), but you'd be surprised at how poorly this subject is addressed and explained. (Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised.)
Dear friends: I would like to know if each single LP was recorded/cutted at exactly/accurated 33.333..rpm and if for any reasons exist tiny deviations from 33.333..rpm accuracy why or how can we or not detected through an accurate TT that spins at exactly 33.333...rpm during play time of LPs?
I think that some one can put some light about.
The stylus-drag is a fact and can be fixed but those tiny differences in speed/pitch always comes by speed non-accurated TTs or by the LP it self?
richardkrebs Is this audible? maybe. What this wonderful hobby has taught me is that pretty much everything is audible, at least in the analogue world where I live.
Hi Richard Based on my personal experiences with the Goldilocks adventure, room dimensions,and specifically, the narrow rectangle - shooting down the short wall, and the type of pickup tonearm/cart used, has "very much" to do with how much is "audible" 8^0
Phoenixengr, that would involve using a sophisticated solid state 3 phase converter plus the electronics to control speed. I can just see people getting a rotary converter with their Turntable:) Rodman, use Millers racing oil. It has nano particles in it that reduce friction another 25%.
In my experience, the biggest change in speed of BD tables is caused by the warming of the belt and bearing oil viscosity; it is not uncommon to see speed drift of 0.2~0.3 RPM over a 45 minute playing time which is audible to those with pitch sensitive hearing and if corrected all at once, audible to just about everyone.
That’s why I’ve always turned my SDS on first and had my BD TT spinning, while the system’s electronics/tubes warm up, B+ stabilizes, etc, for about an hour. Then there’s that 0W-20 Mobile 1, in the VPI’s bearing. I figure; every little bit helps!
And yes, agree, it is all about enjoying the music. One question I ask myself when I make a change is...How does the music make me feel after the change? Am I more connected to the performance? Does it move me emotionally?
BTW a big thumbs up for Jethro Tull. I have two versions of Thick as a Brick. the original and the remastered which includes a second album Thick as a Brick II
Much prefer the remastered. Same goes for Aqualung.
Richardkrebs, I do not think there is much difference between analog and digital in that regard. There is just more stuff to deal with in the analog world. Staying purely in the analog world I think you rob yourself of some fine musical experiences. As an example, Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick. I have three versions, the original Album, the CD version and a remastered 96/24 download. In the CD version Ian's voice is cutting and uncomfortable at 95 db forcing me to use a notch filter centered at 3000 Hz. The album not so at all. Ian's voice is perfectly smooth. I just got the digital download and listened to it for the first time running the album in sinc at the same time volume matching with a meter. Ian's voice has a bit more bite than the album but not uncomfortable at all, but the download has superior bass and a better dynamic range so it is more punch. At the end of the first side I hear a squeak in the bass drum pedal for the very first time and I can not hear it in the other versions. Imaging is better in the 3rd dimension. Ian's flute and Martin's guitar float in space where on the Album an CD version they are painted on a wall. Now much of this is probably due to the mastering but some is not particularly the dynamic range. Much less dynamic compression than on the album and CD. I'll go where ever the music is best. Sometimes vinyl wins the comparison sometimes not. This is also true for old analog recordings like Thick as a Brick. It is not just the modality. Other issues come into play. The only common denominator I have noticed is that digital recordings sound better in high res digital so I avoid newer recordings in vinyl. With older recordings recorded before 1980 vinyl is frequently better than the CD version. Sorry for getting off topic. But, In the end it is all about the enjoyment of music. Cool looking equipment is no good if it does not sound right. Some systems will tilt the analysis for instance in a system that is a bit dull the CD version of Thick as a Brick might sound better. And so you get variations in opinion not due to different hearing. Different systems. When I do these things with friends present more often than not we come to exactly the same conclusions. Don't give up on digital. There is a world of great music there. The only problem is that there is no equipment there that is as fascinating as vinyl playback.
From my experience, the highest performance for either belt drive or DD is a 3 phase BLDC motor with the caveat that it is run as a 3 phase AC synch motor and not a DC motor (they can be operated both ways). If done right, they have little or no cogging, more torque than a comparable AC synch motor and the speed is determined by the frequency so speed control is fairly simple, though the drive circuitry is not.
Halcro, Very few of us have perfect pitch and even those that do probably still do not have the resolution to hear the degree of slow down caused by stylus drag. Unless you have a table like the Monaco that can pick up speed changes in 1/72nd of a rotation there is little you can do other than set your turntable speed while playing a record. The drag (speed) is going to change across the record and with various frequencies and modulation thus the speed is going to vary fractionally. I would love to see how a table like Kuzma's Stabi XL DC performs with the timeline. I would hazard a guess that it does very well. I know for a fact my SOTA slows down a little just by using a strobe disc. Their new drive might counter that but it has lower resolution, 1 rotation. Will that be good enough? It should certainly do better. At any rate I can not hear changes in pitch that slight so does it really matter? Again to me the most important aspect of vinyl playback is noise. Not only can you hear it but it can also drive your subwoofers crazy particularly if you use room control. I have had several records that I had to return because the lath used to cut the master was in bad shape and the rumble was obnoxious, all Rykodisc I might add. Today is Yom Kippur and I would like to apologize to anyone I have pissed off last year:)
While coreless motors exhibit no cogging, they do show, at a much lower level, perturbations in output torque. As designed and as built are two different things.
Is this audible? maybe. What this wonderful hobby has taught me is that pretty much everything is audible, at least in the analogue world where I live.
Most of the direct drive motors (at least the better ones) are coreless so they have no cogging. An 1800 RPM motor is a 4 pole induction motor; the stator does not have the poles and gaps that an AC synch motor will have. When you turn an induction motor by hand there is no cogging because there is no permanent magnet in the rotor. The rotor is magnetized by the rotating field, but that requires a certain amount of "slip" to operate and is a function of the torque load. Because of this slip, induction motors are not truly synchronous which introduces another variable in speed control. Induction motors are speed sensitive to voltage as well as torque, where AC synch motors are unaffected by either. DC motor speed is affected by voltage, temp and torque load. As stated previously by others, there’s no free lunch and there are strengths and weaknesses to each design choice.
Stylus drag is fairly constant so in most cases, it is inaudible. While there is a measurable change in speed caused by stylus drag that varies from the start of a record to the finish, it is rather small and extremely slow changing and mostly inaudible. Changes in speed with groove modulation exist in theory, but I have never seen any data that claims to measure or quantify it; it must be extremely small. Heavy platters with lots of inertia will have a positive effect on this phenomenon, because changes in groove modulation are short duration (by definition) and more inertia will reduce short term speed variations.
In my experience, the biggest change in speed of BD tables is caused by the warming of the belt and bearing oil viscosity; it is not uncommon to see speed drift of 0.2~0.3 RPM over a 45 minute playing time which is audible to those with pitch sensitive hearing and if corrected all at once, audible to just about everyone.
But an AC synchronous motor could still exhibit cogging, if it is poorly designed with an inadequate number of poles.
But one should look at the rpm of such motors- instead of running at 33 rpm like a direct drive, 1800 rpm is common; at that speed cogging simply isn't a thing. It becomes a thing when the frequency of the event is slow enough that it falls within the perceptual (time) range of the human ear.
By comparison the speed variation caused by a stylus totally dominates the field.
"Phoenix, Thank you for that explanation. Do DC motors cog at all?"
Any motor with iron pole pieces will exhibit cogging. In a DC motor, the magnets are stationary but the rotor coils are wound on steel laminates with poles which also produces cogging.
Some of the better BLDC motors have stators with skewed poles (angled slots rather than vertical) so the rotor sees more or less a constant magnetic reluctance and produce much less cogging.
Mike, Yes you have to ask for it and it will probably cost you an additional fee. Gabon ebony has a specific gravity close to 1. 1 is the specific gravity of water. So Gabon ebony is very stiff and heavier than most wood. Once it is dry it is also very stable. Great arm for Koetsu's and Air Tights. Problem with it is that it is rare and very difficult to dry. Usually you wind up wasting 30 to 40% of the wood in the process. Good Gabon Ebony is jet black. Black piano keys use to be made out of it. I use it for details in cabinets like drawer pulls, handles, inlay and such. It turns very nicely.
"Cogging is a function of the number of poles; the rotor experiences a
regularly irregular rotational force due to the naturally varying
intensity of the magnetic fields produced by the stator. The rotor is
therefore constantly inconstant in its speed. There is a regularity to
it that is said to be audible to some, and that's "cogging". The
tendency can be ameliorated by using a stator with a lot of poles, the
more the better."
This is only partially correct. Cogging is caused by the change in variable magnetic reluctance as the PM rotor passes the metal pole pieces of the stator. Adding more poles does not decrease the frequency or amplitude of cogging. If you turn the motor by hand you will feel the cogging and it "feels" finer with a 24 pole motor vs a 12 pole motor because the cogs are closer together. A 24 pole motor turns at half the speed of 12 pole motor so the frequency of the cogs is identical in both (120Hz). The magnitude of the vibration caused by cogging will be identical in motors with identical power ratings and the vibration is directly proportional to the power consumed by the motor. In most cases, the 24 pole "upgrade" motor is higher power than the 12 pole motor it replaces, so the 24 pole motor will actually produce more cogging than the 12 pole motor it replaces. This was investigated in the link below:
the thing which startles is how quickly the platter slows down. All due to the drag induced by a tiny diamond thrashing about in a plastic groove.
I first saw this demonstrated on a Transrotor FatBob Turntable which has an even heavier platter than the Raven, and the 'slowdown' was even more dramatic and faster. I like you....was similarly 'startled' 🤯
I agree totally with your 'conundrum' about which record to choose to set speed with the stylus playing...? Apart from massed symphonic performances with both highly and lightly modulated passages....I think that Rodman's insightful and practical habit will work well. RAVEN AC-2 TT vs TIMELINE
The question is.....how audible is this phenomenon in the 'real world'? I can still happily listen to the Raven in my system although I can hear the differences in presentation on the Victors with complex orchestral works. The Raven has a slightly more 'relaxed' sound and whilst we know from reading Peter Moncrieff's treatise.....the effects of 'Stylus Drag' are 'distortions' of the musical waveform.....there are many many more distortions (from cartridges, tonearms, headshells, turntables, speakers etc) that probably have greater consequences.
Whilst all this sounds'gloomy' for those outside the vinyl/analogue 'True-Believers Brethren'.....none of it stops vinyl from sounding infinitely better than digital 😝👍
Ralph, In my understanding, cogging and synchronicity are two different things. Cogging is a function of the number of poles; the rotor experiences a regularly irregular rotational force due to the naturally varying intensity of the magnetic fields produced by the stator. The rotor is therefore constantly inconstant in its speed. There is a regularity to it that is said to be audible to some, and that's "cogging". The tendency can be ameliorated by using a stator with a lot of poles, the more the better. Coreless motors may do away with the issue altogether. (No matter how much I search on that last topic, I have never found a satisfactory treatise on the subject of coreless motors vis a vis cogging, but most talk about coreless motors as if they are free of it.) On the other hand, an AC synchronous motor does lock onto the line frequency, and this can keep the speed steady, absent drag, etc. But an AC synchronous motor could still exhibit cogging, if it is poorly designed with an inadequate number of poles. Maybe Richard can comment on my thoughts.
Wouldn't setting the speed with the arm lowered be, at best, a compromise? What record do you choose? Surely the stylus drag is modulation dependant, so if you choose to set the speed at a 'medium modulation' level record, the platter will run fast some of the time and slow some of the time. This, purely dependant on what is going on with the music. Add in the radius where you lowered the arm and it becomes a lottery.
Halcro. Thanks for posting the videos. I have seen tests like this before and the thing which startles is how quickly the platter slows down. All due to the drag induced by a tiny diamond thrashing about in a plastic groove. Others have said that a high moment of inertia platter will save the day. Don't know what the inertia figure for the Raven is but the platter itself does look substantial, so it is reasonable to assume that it isn't a feather weight. A high inertia platter simply changes the time constant for a given motor torque. Sure, its deceleration rate will be slower but it will also take longer to recover. There doesn't seem to be any free lunch here. Also agree totally with atmasphere. "a robust drive" is a common thread through most of the collectable vintage TTs
Pardon me, but can we let this cogging thing go with respect to synchronous motors? Because its totally not a thing. Synchronous motors (seen in idler drives and some belt drive machines) are locked to the line frequency and don't really have power surges or the like regardless of line voltage.
Idler drives can work just fine if the turntable is designed fairly well. This is why some older vintage designs have a following- Lenco and Thorens (TD124) in particular.
If you look at the best of the vintage 'tables that have a modern following you will see one thing that they all have in common- a robust drive. This is true of belt drive machines- like the Empires, and direct drive machines like the Technics SP10, in particular the SP-1 MkIII which has so much torque its suitable for LP mastering lathe use.
I will gladly accept minor speed variation versus my tonearm hopping across the record when someone walks into the room.
@mijostyn This can be solved with a proper stand. I have a custom Sound Anchors stand but what really did the job was placing the stand on a set of bearings which relieve side to side pressures caused by foot falls. I lived in an older house and this was a very effective solution to that problem! Sorry for the Off Topic bit...
Off-topic: Hi, Mike! Good to hear from you. I have only one further comment: It is not valid to lump all servo speed correction mechanisms as if they were all the same. Technics was dominant in the DD industry, and they espoused powerful iron core motors driving heavy platters (if we limit ourselves to the SP10 series) and very frequent speed correcting. But other manufacturers, e.g., Kenwood in the L07D, settled on using less powerful coreless motors, to minimize or eliminate cogging, and a comparatively laissez faire approach to servo correction, which means that corrections are fewer and less frequently made. This to my ears resulted in the L07D sounding a tad more "musical" than an unmodified SP10 Mk3. Applying the Krebs mods and now the chip made by JP Jones have made my Mk3 sound a lot better. So, just to say that those designers of the 70s were well aware of trade-offs related to servo control. In keeping with Mike's critique of the Monaco, I had wondered what became of that product given the initial ballyhoo. One problem with it, in my mind anyway, might be its relatively low mass. When speed corrections are made, there is an equal and opposite force generated at the platter such that the chassis "wants" to turn in the opposite direction from the platter. I think you need mass to overcome that manifestation of Newton's 3rd Law.
Mike, you need to get rid of both the Wave Kinetics and Saskia. Get yourself one of those Monaco 2.0 tables and put a Gabon Ebony Durand arm on it. The Gabon Ebony has seriously better timbre than the rosewood and has much lower stylus drag. And here I am stuck with this crappy Clearaudio Statement. But don’t worry. I just ordered a Basis Work of Art. I can put the Statement in my Summer home in the Catskills
i had a Monaco 1.0 with a Dynavector arm in my system for a year back 10 years ago. very ’meh’ to my ears and far prefer the NVS to that. haven’t read Mr. Gregory’s review of the 2.0, but as far as timbre i think the Saskia is quite the king of that. neither of my tt’s are going anywhere.
’if’ i was acquiring another tt, it would be a belt drive of some sort. i already have what i consider top echelon direct drive and idler examples.
sorry, but not up to speed on what a Gabon Ebony Durand might be? please point me in the right direction and i’ll get informed. i’ve owned 4 different Durand tonearms and also own his record weight. i’ve owned 3 separate wood arm wand Durand arms, and have a wood arm Durand Telos on my NVS now with a Miyajima Premium Be Mono cartridge on it. sweet sounding arm.
i guess i could ask Joel directly about the Gabon Ebony, he is a local friend of mine. he was here in my room two weeks ago tweaking my Durand Tosca tone arm and listening to the Saskia.
"Any aspect of reproduced music related to time - depth, soundstage, transients, dynamics, tonality, etc. - is better or worse thanks to timing in the creation of the original signal. And no amount of downstream electronic wonderfulness can ’fix’ that signal if the turntable rotation is not accurate. These are not just technical considerations, but tangibly audible results."
Without those aspects, to me; there can be no simulacrum of any musical event and simple boredom, the result(again: to me). Of course: ALL aspects of reproducing(or creating) music well, are dependent on accuracy, regarding time/timing.
@mijostyn If you're concerned about your tonearm skipping across the LP when walking around your music room, we have bigger problems than initially interpreted!
Mike, you need to get rid of both the Wave Kinetics and Saskia. Get yourself one of those Monaco 2.0 tables and put a Gabon Ebony Durand arm on it. The Gabon Ebony has seriously better timbre than the rosewood and has much lower stylus drag. And here I am stuck with this crappy Clearaudio Statement. But don't worry. I just ordered a Basis Work of Art. I can put the Statement in my Summer home in the Catskills.
noromance, you can say it was me. If you read jtimothya's link you will see idler wheel drives are dismissed out of hand. Then there is a long winded dissertation on the pitfalls of belt drive. What he says is technically true and I am sure he thinks he can hear these anomalies. His and noromance's hearing is obviously better than mine. But he conveniently leaves out the opposite. The platter also dampens the motor. In an idler wheel drive the connection is more direct. The mass of the platter dampens the power surges of the motor. Partially and even totally diminishing the cogwheel effect. In a belt drive things get more complicated. Kuzma solves the issue by using a heavy platter and a very stiff belt which again dampens the motor. But, is motor cogging really an issue. I suppose it depends on the motor. Another issue this author seems to ignore. Some motors hardly cog at all. This author's view of suspended turntables is interesting. Yes, if the suspension were continuously bouncing it might induce speed changes. I suppose I jump up and down in front of the turntable while I am listening to music just to watch it bounce. It is at absolute rest 99.9% of the time. I will gladly accept minor speed variation versus my tonearm hopping across the record when someone walks into the room. Anyway, the problem with idler wheel drive turntables is noise more so than speed variation. I think the Grand Prix turntable is very cool and I would love to hear one in action. The fact that friction slows the turntable down a little should not surprise anyone. Some tables now will maintain a constant speed/pitch regardless of load within reason. A good idea given with modern motors and electronics it should be easy to do. The Monaco certainly does this at high resolution. But is the motor well shielded. Having your cartridge floating above an oscillating magnetic device is counter intuitive.
@uberwaltz- Yeah; they were kinda special and now, pretty much unobtainium(popular and rare does that). Had I known then: I woulda/shoulda/coulda had mine retipped and kept it. That’s one of very few components, that I’ve sold and wish I hadn’t. Perhaps: thinking about selling his Sonus, pushed that member, "off the face....."? Still, I’ve had some very nice, high compliance MCs, since. My Soundsmith is no slouch, either. They’ve all helped me to address/minimize stylus drag, at the source(to me: better than Band-Aids).
On the other hand I’m sure that beyond a certain point none of us can readily hear speed imperfections, especially not those quoted for the Monaco 2. I mean I know turntable speed matters, it matters a lot, but this is overkill, isn’t it?
No - definitely not overkill.
The gains from stable accuracy are substantial. it’s all about time - the cartridge provides the amplitude of the musical signal but the time element - the frequency - of music comes from the turntable’s rotation, ideally at 33-1/3 rpm.
It’s not a question of what you hear when speed is off, it’s what you hear when speed is both stable and accurate. Wow and flutter are unmeasureable with the Monaco and a few other advanced direct-drive tables (eg NVS). We’re well beyond old standards.
Any aspect of reproduced music related to time - depth, soundstage, transients, dynamics, tonality, etc. - is better or worse thanks to timing in the creation of the original signal. And no amount of downstream electronic wonderfulness can ’fix’ that signal if the turntable rotation is not accurate. These are not just technical considerations, but tangibly audible results.
Perhaps Technics (orig Sony) claim of eliminating direct drive 'cogging' have finally turned the tide for good this time.
Use of spotless motors does this. Equally important is the drive system that controls them.
Rodman. The Sonus Gold Blue has great reviews and high recommendations. A while ago a member was going to sell me one from his stash but then he just fell off the face of the Earth so it never happened.
I still peruse eBay and here etc but never see a complete usable one.
i owned the Rockport Sirius III turntable (subject of the Peter Moncreiff article) for 9 years (2002-2011). no doubt it did overcome stylus drag. then i acquired the Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive tt, which briefly sat next to the Rockport and i heard the same thing (no stylus drag).
but stylus drag is not everything. there is also something called 'steady state speed'. absolute servo corrected speed i think might be not quite as significant as steady state speed. our ears seem to be very sensitive to the speed being steady.
recently i added a Saskia model two idler turntable to my system, which sits along side my direct drive NVS. i've switched cartridges and arms from one to the other these last couple of months. the Saskia is not just another idler. it weighs 250 pounds, has a Pabst 3 phase motor, and very heavy platter. the Saskia has no servo loop for speed. it sets the speed and then maintains it. inertia and the leverage of the idler wheel keep things steady.
as a result there is a solidity and flow that is undeniable. the tonal density must be heard to be believed. zero stylus drag + absolute steady speed.
i had heard the Saskia at shows back a few years and was always very impressed, although the systems it was in were unfamiliar and different than mine. so i thought i knew what it might do, but it was a stab in the dark.
i just love what i'm hearing so far. every day of listening to the Saskia is a learning experience. i still enjoy my NVS direct drive too. they both have their strengths.
stylus drag is a real issue. but servo correcting speed comes with a price too.....even at the very tip top of the food chain.
Earlier; geoffkait asked, "Is this where low effective mass of the tonearm comes in?" Since 1980; I’ve been using low mass Magnepan arms and high compliance cartridges. Among the reasons I went that way, is the lower VTF at which many higher compliance carts can faithfully track. That translates into lower friction coefficient / less stylus drag. Currently; I’m using a high compliance Soundsmith cartridge, at just a hair over 1G. I’ve no doubt; that helps. I still miss my Sonus Gold-Blue!
@atmasphere, nothing new under the sun, eh? Thanks.
@rodman99999, good for you!
I think the main point to bear in mind is that, as stated in the Moncrieff article, is that it’s not just pitch errors that are affected by speed irregularities -
"In the past, most people have assumed that any speed errors in a turntable would be audible only as pitch errors, making the music sound off pitch or at worst slightly wobbly in pitch. But turntable speed errors also have other sonic consequences, which are far more pernicious. By playing the right amplitude at the wrong time, turntable speed errors create a distorted music waveform, even if the rest of your system were to be perfect. Indeed, as cartridges get better and better, becoming far cleaner and more accurate in tracking the amplitude half of the music waveform from the groove, and as the rest of our system chain continues to become at once cleaner and more revealing of everything (including not only the music but also distortions from our program sources), and become the last remaining hurdle of the state of the art."
On the other hand I’m sure that beyond a certain point none of us can readily hear speed imperfections, especially not those quoted for the Monaco 2. I mean I know turntable speed matters, it matters a lot, but this is overkill, isn’t it?
"The peak deviation from a perfect 33 1/3rpm rotational speed for the 2.0 is typically better than 0.0001% (1ppm) -- that’s actual platter motion, not a quartz-locked specification."
0.0001% ? That’s just another way of describing perfection as far as humans go.
On the other hand companies like Linn and Rega to this day remain strangely quiet regarding data on the absolute speed accuracy of their (belt-driven) products.
Doesn’t stop thousands from enjoying them though does it?
@lewm- I’ve never, in the last(slightly over) four decades of listening to vinyl, experienced any loss of fidelity, to, "super-imposed alterations in pitch and timing due to stylus drag, belt creep, and the like." In the years prior; some had to be addressed(cheaper tables). I have perfect pitch. ie: I’ve always been able to accurately tune my guitar, without a tuning aid, etc. Thought that was normal, until a fellow musician pointed out it wasn’t. Were there anything, in any of those later analogue systems, that caused an actual, audible problem(wow, flutter, pitch anomalies); I’d have been the first to notice and would have corrected it. The reason I gave tooblue a +1, is my following the same speed adjustment procedure(done w/stylus in the groove). If you can hear the result of stylus drag, with a correctly adjusted table; that’s patently amazing. Belt creep/slippage is an equipment malfunction, that needs to be addressed, if present. Don’t have it, here. Thanks(for your concern).
@ct0517, just went back and read your above mentioned posting of your thoughts after you put the three tables to test and found your results very interesting, thanks for sharing that. In this world we live, nothing is perfect and we must recognize what those inperfections are and how to deal with them. Enjoy the music.
@jtimothya , thanks for those links. Definitely essential reading for anyone serious about vinyl.
Love the clarity of Moncrieff piece in particular. As for the out of this world Monaco 2 speed stats, it's good to know that Technics don't have it all to themselves when it comes to speed accuracy.
I can still remember the hullabaloo when Linn introduced their Lingo outboard power supply (1990). As an upgrade to their Valhalla built in board (1982), it was seen back then as the biggest upgrade in the history of the LP12. The Lingo itself was superceded by the Radikal (2009). Speed matters, and don't Linn know it.
Linn of course have persisted with their rubber belts and a cult soin developed regarding which way around the belt should be fitted. Some critics sniggered that the reason why they clung so steadfastly to rubber belts was largely down to the cheap crappy AC motors that they used for decades...
Anyway, that J. Peter Moncrieff's IAR article on The Rockport Sirius III is a classic of its kind and fully deserves to be better known. It's not the last word on turntables, and despite the fact that it's bound to incense a few it's worth 15 minutes or so reading for anyone interested in vinyl.
Well of course there is drag, as you have two surfaces rubbing together. Physics.
I performed (for fun) 8^0 - controlled experiments years ago and eliminated the tonearm cartridge element - I used two of the same tonearms and carts.
Each turntable drive type Idler, DD, Belt - revealed to me significant differences in the way the music was presented and the way each specific table dealt with stylus drag. (the topic of this thread)
Each drive type had a "failing factor" ......an Achilles heel was presented to me.
The way each setup - (turntable, tonearm, cartridge) dealt with the records behavior, varying grooves, and position on the record in play; resulted in an overall "unique" sonic presentation.
For those interested my findings can be found here
bohe60s, You wrote, "Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly." Was that in reference to my post at 11:23 AM? If so, can you explain your meaning a little better? If you were referring to my post, perhaps you did not understand what I was saying. If one can detect speed irregularities (audibly, of course), then it is not irrelevant to eliminate same, so much as that is possible. But maybe that is not what you meant.
Davey and Rodman, Wouldn't you rather leave the human-ness of live music in the hands of the actual musicians, who are also human, rather than to the super-imposed alterations in pitch and timing due to stylus drag, belt creep, and the like? For me, I want to eliminate those mechanical problems to the greatest extent possible so that the actual treatment of the music by the actual musicians gets across to me, so much as that is possible. The reproduction system has enough inherent problems as it is without admitting those others into the mix.
@davekayc- There’s Physics, again. ie: The heavier the groove modulation, the greater the friction(think sandpaper coarseness). Same with stylus force/pressure, in the groove(higher pressure = higher friction coefficient). Further from the center of the record = more leverage. The fluctuations in actual speed, to me anyway, are inconsequential enough to ignore(it may bother the back of my head, but- not my ears, gratefully).
Variability adds to the beauty of the vinyl sound . Why try and make it sound digital. Every single live performance does this, except techno. Does this drag decrease with softer passages ? Increase with dynamic peaks ? Back and forth ? I dont think the magic of vinyl should be sterilized to this extent . Same as reference equipment is looking at art under fluorescent lights.
@tablejockey - The Denon DD table(DP75), I purchased in 1980(still have it, in a closet), has a Quartz referenced/AC servo motor speed control system, that reads 1000 precisely recorded pulses, from what amounts to magnetic tape, imprinted on it’s platter’s circumference, via a tape head(like in a cassette deck or RTR). That particular tech’s been out there, for decades. I’d be using the new version of the Roadrunner/Falcon system, with my VPI, if it didn’t require a redesign of my homemade SAMA(remachining, to fit their motor). I waited too long, when the original Phoenix pieces(excellent concept) were available(then: poof, gone). That system would have worked, with my VPI motor. Not that I’ve had any speed issues anyway. Easy to adjust, via my SDS. Long as I keep the belt talced; I measure/hear no drift or pitch change, whether with my LASER tach or strobe .
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