Bacardi, I had never heard of them. They look like another effort to find the magic mix of resonance frequencies. I see there is a distributor in Canada, but cannot find if anyone sells them in the US. |
In relation to the stillpoint ultra SS's, I have done a direct comparison with the Ultras to a set of Oriton SC35's and preferred the Oritons. Increased resolution, well defined and tighter bass(not muddy), greater focus around vocals and instruments and soundstaging was better focused. I will add more throughout my system components. Oriton can make a larger footer than the SC35 but for my Casta D8 floorstanders I am very curious to try the sistrum Apprentice SP-SA-103's. The sistrum footprint seems to
fit well with the Casta's and I will be ordering a pair very soon.
I suggest if you tried the SP Ultra SS's and liked the sound, give the Oritons SC-35's a try, you may prefer them at a way cheaper price point. |
I have Duelund CAST, High Fidelity CT1 Ultimate digital cable, Tripoint Troy and the Takatsuki 300b tubes in my system. These 4 are at the very top level in their respective categories. All four products are premium priced and rightly so, I find them superb in my system. The Star Sound Apprenticeare much less expensive and yet in terms of their effect I'm compelled to place them in this exalted class. As with the other four products they move my sound in the same direction. More natural, more realism and closer to what I experience with live music, emotion and connection/ involvement. All of these stellar products are for those who love music rather than seekers of Hifi hype and sizzle. IMO they will withstand the test of time. Rather than becoming bored with them and then in search of a new toy or thrill, admiration will grow. That's what true musical value does. My music listening enjoyment has deepened ever further do to these products addition to my system.
Charles, |
Grannyring, I would be very interested in your findings.
What I expect you to hear is speed, quickness, sharp leading edge, whatever you want to call it. It is the 103 with their 1.5" Audio Points that I have. |
Congrats to Granny and Tbg. I had Apprentice stands under $75 Pioneer speakers I bought on Craigslist as surrogates until I got my speakers from Dale Pitcher. It was nothing short of astounding. I had a golden eared friend over and he stated that he has heard a lot of speakers in the 10-15K range that did not sound as good as these humble, vintage, Vietnam era speakers! Bravo Starsound.
Psag, what say ye? |
Tbg
I just purchased some new Lahave speakers that come with 8 Ultra SS Stillpoints. The speaker is "voiced" with these footers it seems. Anyway, I will compare the stock Stillpoint footers to the Star Sound Apprentice 103 platforms I have.
I use the Apprentice under my Romulus cd/dac and just love it. It does amazing things to my music.
I will report back on my findings. |
Well, i guess I want to reopen this thread. I now have seven Star Sound Tech Apprentice Platforms as well as a lot of StillPoint devices. In terms of philosophies the two are quite different as the SPs seeks to convert all vertical vibrations into heat and Star Sound wants to transfer all to ground. They sound quite different also. The Star Sound are very quick sounding with sharp leading edge. The Stillpoints give a very holographic image, which may or may not be real.
Under my speakers the Star Sound platform worked better given the design of the BMC Arcadias as well as sounding better. The same is true under amps and my Koda preamp, which I should say is a hybrid use of both. The Koda sits on an Apprentice, which sits on a Accapella platform sitting on the rails of the Stillpoints Rack.
My best advice is to try both. I also think this thread ignored the Stillpoint Ultra Minis which on light devices are excellent. Most of my source components are on the Ultra Minis. My Nantais Lenco Reference is on a separate Stillpoints Rack on Ultra Fives, which were clearly better than the Ultra SSs. |
I'm going to try them, for sure. Stay tuned. |
Or is this just an academic exercise? |
|
Hi Psag,
Thanks, I took a shortcut and likely avoided potential angst. Having the speakers, amplifier and the line stage from the same talented builder has worked out superbly for me .You know what they say about those roads leading to Rome.
Charles, |
Charles1dad,
Yes, I have two systems that are polar opposites. Each one provides different joys and shortcomings, depending on source material. Your system looks very sensible, combining full range with high sensitivity. |
I have sought Sistrum stands and their new BackStage stands to no avail. Tbg, I believe the Sistrum backstage will be reviewed by Clement Perry...at least that's what I was told. You could always talk to Robert about purchasing a pair if you so desire when they are formally in production. |
Psag, I very much like the Phy-hp 30s, but as much as I like and respect Andrew and as often as I have listened to them at shows, I do not like the TADs other than the smallest one.
Of course, I have never tried the Ultra Fives under and the TADs, but I would be shocked were this not a big improvement.
Yo2tup, I got the Ultra Minis in today. They are a lighter sound than the Fives. I have tried a Five on top the line stage and another on the amp. Neither was quite what I had expected given prior experience. I will say nothing more now. An entire set of Ultra Minis is less money than one Ultra Five. |
Hi Psag,
The TAD and PHY-HP30 are so different in concept and design I see no way for them to sound similar at all. The PHY is very unique. They aren't even meant to be driven by the same type of amplifiers. There re from two different worlds .
Charles, |
In reference to some of the threads around footers and the channeling of resonances and vibrations, the theory of having such a device under your audio gear or speakers will most likely contribute to a change in sound quality.
As CEO/Designer of Krolo Design, I have manufactured Krolo Enhansers with 3 key criteria's in mind: 1) reduce distortion and vibration 2) reduce background noise 3) allow for a better soundstage. This was achieved by using two types of metals fabricated in two separate shapes with an air gap that allows the resonances to dissipate through that opening. Having such an air gap allows for a more realistic, wider sound stage. This is also true for the audio rack that I designed and manufactured which integrates the same principals, where both solid wood materials and metals are blended together to ultimately achieve the goal of reducing vibration while enhancing the sound quality. One of the unique features of my rack known as the TOMO Rack, is the decoupling of shelves from the main frame which has contributed to the reduction of vibration and distortion. Integrating wood with solid metal rods has proven to be a combination that works both in principal and practice. Certain elements must eliminate vibrations while others absorb. It is a complex issue to refine and get perfect. Currently Krolo Design products are being professionally reviewed by an Audiogon member, TEAJAY, for Home Theatre Review. It has been an honor to meet him at Axpona Chicago this year and have the opportunity for him to provide his feedback and professional opinion.
We have the Krolo Enhansers for $250 set of three and the Tomo Rack starts at $5,888. As audiophiles we never stop at pursuing the purest of music reproduction. |
Tbg, Wilson is not for me either, but I think its more an issue of preference than quality. My speakers are the TAD References One. The stock footers are simple cones, solid but nothing fancy. As good as the TADs are, I find that they cannot do some of the nice things that I hear with (for example) the Phy-hp30 driver in an open baffle driven by 10 watts of high quality SET. Maybe putting Stillpoints under the TADs would take me further away from the things I admire in those Phy-hp drivers. |
Robert will not give out demos for reviews.!!???? A breath of fresh air in this review crazy audio hobby.
Remember years ago SR Apex wire gave a wall to wall / 40 foot high / 100 miles deep stage with life like images only to read now the stage is deep/higher and planet to planet wide.
Go back even 3 years ago and read the reviews. Crazy writing. |
Psag, the StillPoints technology is to convert the vast majority of vertical motion into horizontal motion that is absorbed by the stainless steel and converted into heat. It is not specific to frequency.
In my experience one should avoid putting the STs on or below component feet or footers. I have never found doing so the equal of just avoiding the feet. I would never think of leaving speaker feet in position and using the StillPoints under them.
Since I have never found any Wilson speakers worth buying, I have never tried the SPs under them. |
Yo2tup, try Ultra Minis under the light components. I have a 7 pound line stage on four SP Ultra Fives. I did find that adding weight improved the sound. I anxiously await more Minis to replace the Fives, so that I can use the Fives on top my components where they work much better than the SP LPIs. |
Correction on my previous post, I meant Audio Points brass cones. |
Hi Crna39, the Alexia is a great speaker, and I'm sure a lot of effort went into the design of the stock Wilson footers. What differences did you hear with the Ultra V's? |
Psag, logically speaking, it does not make sense to pay money for a footer that is mid bass shy and then rely on EQ to correct it. Find the right footer or platform. |
39,
STillpoints are not mandatory under any speaker. |
I put the Ultra V's under my Alexia's. I'd tell anyone that got reference speakers that the Stillpoints are mandatory! |
Psag,
Definitely worth a try, especially if you can pick up the Stillpoints with a trial period, just in case. Good luck. |
Wrm57, those are interesting results. I use some digital EQ in my system, so I might be able to compensate for the mid-bass issue that you mentioned. Creating more air and separation are things that I'm looking for. |
Roxy54, I want to try them and possibly to review them. I have had people I respect say they are better than the StillPoints, but I will be surprised if they do. |
For me I found Stillpoints SS worked well on heavy components (75 lb integrated in my case) and not so well on lighter components. I tried 3 and 4 SS's under my DAC and my transport; and I could barely tell a difference over some Stillpoints brass cones.... the SS's actually made the sound a tad dry and less involving. Wave Kinetics A10-U8's worked way better than either these; which is what I settled on. I had all three at the same time, so I was able to compare them directly. Also tried the SS under my speakers and they didn't work so well there either, but I blame my thick carpeting. |
Tbg,
What do you mean you have sought them to no avail? Are you saying that Robert won't sell them to you? |
Glory, I have sought Sistrum stands and their new BackStage stands to no avail. Other than that IMHO no other isolation device is even close to the StillPoints. I have boxes of points, rubber like footers, string suspension systems, Nuance shelves, etc. |
I have tried StillPoints Ultra SSs and Ultra Fives under three different speakers and often tried three versus four. The speakers were the Tidal Contrivas, the BMC Arcadias, and the LSA1 Statements. The latter are monitors and the SPs were used under the stands with the SP OEMs under the speakers.
My conclusions were that all speakers were improved with the SSs but never with the then available version made with aluminum and four were clearly better than three. Then Ultra Fives came along. The Fives are clearly superior to the SSs but are so big as to discourage use under components. Again four are clearly better than three. I use SP Component Stands under my monoblocks and my turntable with first SP SSs and later SP Fives mounted on the Component Stands. The SSs were good but the Fives are dramatically better. The same is true under my Bergman Sindre turntable.
I should note that four are much better if you take great care to be sure all four are equally in contact with the component or speaker. And yes, five are even better.
Finally, there are the Ultra Minis. They are quite small, effective, and cheap. I cannot hear any difference compared with the SSs. Comparing the Fives with the Minis is difficult given the size of the Fives. As the Fives have 5 of the SP technology in them, I doubt four Minis would be in the same league as four Fives. Maybe twenty Minis would rival four Fives. |
I have Coincident TV III's |
Bill, What speakers do you currently have? Tom |
My kids are out also Charles... I knocked it over by brushing into the speaker and not that hard really. My fault! I am the problem it seems.... |
Wrm, your assessments are spot on. It still remains a chicken and egg scenario though, and that's why people should always experiment first.
Granny, you need to call Robert. The apprentice has a lower center of gravity and they now offer the threaded inserts. It will not be a problem although its a two man job.
Of course, you could always settle for less.....but what red blooded audiophile would!
The whole debate regarding mechanical grounding or isolation is interesting. Th ave audiophile brain still seems to be stuck in the 50s where speakers and equipment gets plonked on the carpet and/or ornamental wooden rack. I have read relatively recent reviews in magazines where equipment was stuck on a chair or on the ground in a poorly laid out room.
John Atkinson alluded to the history of vibration management in speakers here: http://www.stereophile.com/features/806 |
Bill I understand. It`s just me and my wife now(the kids have moved on) and the speakers are in a dedicated room,so the risk is lower than in the past.I`m sure Star Sound can offer reasonable suggestions for you.
Charles, |
I had the 101's under a previous speaker with great results in sound. Unfortunately one speaker was damaged due to the less than ideal support. Ya, it tipped over!
I won't take that chance again. To bad.
Perhaps holes can be drilled so I can bolt the stand to the holes in the speaker's bottom. This may change the sound and effectiveness however... |
I haven't tried Stillpoints under speakers but I found them undesirable under source components. I bought a trio of Ultra SS and tried them sequentially under my Brinkmann Oasis, VAC Phi Beta preamp, and Manley Steelhead II. In each case, I found them to create a lot of air and additional separation of instruments, which was good, but at the expense of mid-bass weight and overall tonal balance, which was not so good. Ultimately, I found my system more balanced and natural without them. Actually, that's true of any footers I've tried and I've tried a lot of them.
For context, I have Adona stands with their multi-element shelving, and I use a Minus-K platform under the Brinkmann. Without the Minus-K, I might have liked the Stillpoints more under the Oasis, but I can't say for sure. I know Jay Kaufmann at Audio Revelation loves them under his. |
Ask Robert about the threaded inserts. That will add further stability |
Bill,
They are fairly stable but not as secure as the original cones due to 52 inch height and narrow footprint of the speaker(same cabinet as yours). They are in a seperate room and there`re no children or pets to worry about.The improvement is well worth it to me,I`ll just be careful around them.I use two platforms per speaker(speaker depth is 22 inches).
Charles, |
Grannyring,
You don't need to be worried; they are as stable as using cones or spikes, and once you hear what they do for your system, you will regret not doing it sooner. |
Charles, how secure are your speakers on the new Sistrum stands? I assume not as stable as the old footers? Thinking about them for my speakers, but the current footers are very stable as my speakers weight darn close to 200 lbs each! |
Agear,
Mechanical grounding is a fundamental issue and shouldn`t be ignored.Your comment about capacitors is interesting. I replaced the lone capacitor in my speaker crossover with a Duelund CAST and the improvement was immediate and obvious,it got better yet with time(it was money well spent). I`d say that placing the speakers on the Apprentice platforms resulted in an even larger margin of improvement(which is saying something!).This is good engineering/design with excellent implementation.
Charles, |
Seems logical to assume that the makers of megabuck speakers would use superior footers in their designs. One would assume so, but sadly its not always the case. Footers, or rather mechanical grounding technologies, seems to often be last on the list for speaker manufacturers regardless of price point. How many times have you seen cheap steel spikes on a 40K pair of speakers? Or an MDF box with rudimentary rod bracing and dynamat type internal sheeting? I personally believe mechanical grounding or isolation or whatever you want to call it is foundational and can transform a speaker far more than driver or cap selection. Everyone fixates on that, but it should be secondary. I have owned Dale Pitchers speakers (Intuitive Design) on and off since 2006. He is on the lunatic fringe in this area and has incorporated mechanical grounding elements in his speakers for over 25 years. He has used Stillpoints until fairly recently. I have done a lot of experiments with them, and they are efficacious. In some of my applications, they did seem to inject a little midrange glare (and you can argue that is a byproduct of the equipment design and not the points...who knows). I personally prefer the Sistrum products under my equipment (Sp101s) and speakers (Apprentice). In my opinion, the more resonance potential in an audio device, the more efficacious or impactful they are (subs>speakers>amps, etc). Sistrum, like Dale, has been at this for a while, and mechanical grounding is their core business. Teajay, we look forward to your review. I had not heard of the Krolo stuff before. I scanned his website, and it looks like he is an interior designer by day? He seems to use an amalgam of materials in his designs, including wood, aluminum, etc. Very aesthetically pleasing for sure, but I could not drudge up design particulars, engineering elements, etc. I assume you have access to that info? Psag, this a thoughtful thread. Being a thoughtful guy, you owe it to yourself to fiddle in this area. Forget about price and just try it. |
I'm getting great results eliminating the stock spikes of my Zu Audio Definitions Mk 4 spkrs, and placing them on a combination of Symposium Acoustics "half" Rollerblock RMK Jrs with HDSE ball bearings, on Symposium Svelte Shelves.
Doing a great job of eliminating bass bloat, making the sound at once more airy and more grounded. Quite a feat.
And with the combination at about half the cost of Stillpoints Ultra 5s, this can't hurt! |
Its nice when the maker of an add-on product (Stillpoints in this case) explains how their product works. Its something that many makers of 'tweaks' cannot or will not do. This makes me want to give the Stillpoints products a try, although the prices give me pause. |
I wouldn't say Stillpoints are junk. There is no audiophile product that is universally liked which is the fun/frustrating thing about our whacky hobby. For me, the Stillpoints worked great under my Ps Audio P3 but did nothing when placed under my int amp and cdp. Now this could be because my ears are not that acute or because my system is not resolving. Who knows. My wallet and I are just thankful. I just move on to the next tweak and say that the Stillpoints just didn't work for me but that doesn't mean they won't work for someone else. |
Glory,
The Stillpoints get rave reviews universally(they may warrant them,I don`t know). Over the years I`ve found word of mouth comments from actual product owners on sites like this are often more valuable and insightful.
Charles, |
I use stainless steel Soler Points on my speakers. They are great. The local shop here stocks many sizes, but Ed Soler is a local to the shop so it's easy to have him make them to order. The ones I had made for my speakers are about two inches at the base and about two and a half inches tall if I recall correctly. I provided him with one of the spikes that came with the speaker so he could match the threads. Spikes like mine are not cheap at $60 each, but they are proportioned perfectly for my speakers, the point is very sharp, they look great, and they work great. |
