Ahemmm...At the risk of making this an 'English as Second Language' issue (which I'm not-believe me, I admire *anyone* who can speak more than one language), could someone please decipher Crem1's last post.
Johnbrown--I have to say I completely agree. I stumbled on to this thread a few months ago and thought it might contain some useful information about cleaning and taking care of our prized records. However, it must be an axiom regarding Internet forums, but it's pretty obvious this thread is really about egos and political posturing--and worse, when challenged, some individuals become completely unintelligible. This exact thing happened a recently on another forum I belong to regarding some planar speakers. I don't understand it, but it is fascinating. For some, the ability to remain lucid and coherent is completely lost when when agitated or challenged. Someone in academia needs to publish a well researched paper on why this happens, especially on Internet forums focusing on hobbies. It's a mystery!
This thread long ago became one lonely mans search for relevance in a in a world that long ago left him behind. The need for attention and adulation would be better served in a forum dealing with mental health issues. Curiously the laws of chaos and order landed this soul on a lp steam cleaning thread making this an exercise in curiosity and comedy rather than anything regarding the salvation of recorded music as implied.
This attack on a fellow Audiogoner is a sham and is plain embarrassing. I have not met crem or any of the other posters here on this thread in person so i surly would not write or say anything to attack them. What a shame that some have to keep pouncing on a person because he may be out spoken and get possibly creative in writing at times so what. From all of crems posts nothing was said thats going to cause any harm to your vinyl that i read. Which the theme of this thread is about STEAM CLEANING VINYL, not lets gang up on someone. Comments like i think we finally got him are in bad taste and dont belong here. I guess your closets are clean and all of you are choir boys. Its to bad for sure and if your all happy now good for you mission accomplished.
I could give a rats who came up with steaming or who has gold stars on the wall. I would like this thread to continue because i believe STEAM CLEANING is the best answer to getting your vinyl records to play with the best sound and least amount of noise. Can we move on now to finding better ways of vinyl playback by steaming or other ideas out there of getting our lps as clean and noise free as possible. Mike
I have to agree with Stltrains. I don't know Crem1 personally either, nor have I corresponded with him by email. I'm not even that invested in this thread, having posted here only twice before. Never-the-less, Crem1's ideas about steaming have been useful to me. My records now play better and quieter than before. Had it not been for this thread and the previous one, I would not have found out about this method. Crem1 has not contacted me for any financial renumeration for the use of his ideas. I doubt that he ever will. I'm glad he contributed here freely. There is no need for the personal attacks regardless of whether one agrees with the validity of steaming or not.
Those of you who think steaming is worthless, well, just don't steam. Use your VPI, N-G, Loricraft, or whatever and be happy.
Is it wrong to post ideas, ideas given w/o renumeration, that actually work? The goal was to engage normal people that had vinyl that I viewed as a flawed "pop & click" medium in need of help to surive the digital explosion.
I didn't invent steam , I didn't invent RCMS, I didn't invent Handheld Steamers or record cleaning fluids. But , I did experiment & share the results. The reason ? So others could derive joy from analog collections as I had from mine. What did I gain in return ? A street mugging by internet criminals here. What is AG for ? To grant persons who have no investment in ideas to invade a Thread , shout-out reason with vile personal attacks ? With all due respect, if internet terrorists are granted control what is to happen to AG & the rest of us the Audio Community that respect this Web Site.
I have been reading a lot of their comments sprinkeled around AG, almost none forward intellectual discourse. Should this be an inkling of the future of this Web Site , AG should shut-down . Or, defend the rights of free people to discuss ideas without fear of the storm trooper idea-burners, street gang mentality that is hijacking our community.
By repeatedly turning the spotlight back upon himself as the "Godfather of Record Steaming", Crem1 attracts critical examination of his method and recommendations.
Really ???? Seems like your sticky fingers are in many pies Tvad. I wished that steam method could make some individuals "surface noise" free!
Zenblaster-I think we're of the same mind-I, too, came on this thread and thought it might hold useful info for LP cleaning. I made no posts until I found an obvious error (Type 1 water cost), and a logic thread that needed disputing (simply because someone says 'Aquafina' is pure water doesn't necessarily make it so).
In fact, I have had an email correspondence with 'Stltrains' that was informative and...great. Looking at his web personality, and his youtube vinyl-steaming video, perhaps he should take over as 'Steaming Head Honcho'-he certainly seems to have less ego involved, and seems much more directed to simply wanting clean records.
Be that as it may, since I'm also interested in planar speakers, I'd like to have a link to the thread that you spoke of. PM is fine as to not take away from the important business at hand.
Johnbrown i dont believe we need a single person here to lead the discussions. We are all in this together for better playback of our records. As you found out for yourself steaming lps can improve the sound and reduce the surface noise for a quitter lp. Thats why i believe this thread should stop being hijacked by posters whos only goal is not interest in steaming or better play back but stirring the pot instead.
Tvad if you are so interested in the differences in the 3 waters you keep mentioning why dont you try using them in your method of cleaning vinyl and report back to us on your findings. More than one persons experience with those waters could be beneficial to the group. What do you think. Mike
In fact, I have had an email correspondence with 'Stltrains' that was informative and...great. Looking at his web personality, and his youtube vinyl-steaming video, perhaps he should take over as 'Steaming Head Honcho'-he certainly seems to have less ego involved, and seems much more directed to simply wanting clean records.
No, no. no, Charlie/Crem is the rightful steam cleaning head honcho, He has spent more time and effort on this than any human and deserves to be Top Dog. My position is that the value of any idea or processes directly corresponds to the quality, depth and breadth of criticism it can withstand.
Lets cut to the chase. Mapleshade Audio & I are in complete agreement in regard to Steam Cleaning. Pepsi & I have had detailed discussions & they have committed the Company to an inquery in regards to Aqunafina Water. Mapleshade has made a generious offer outlined in Mapleshades Spring 09 Handbook (PP63-64) to allow buyers of their steam cleaning product outlined on those pages to try steam cleaning for 30 days. The offer stands on its own merits and can be read in the handbook or on line @ www.mapleshaderecords.com. The deal is simple try their product & should you meet the requirements posted and are dissatisified they will return your money.
Both Mapleshade & Pepsi take there products seriously . Mapleshade defends Steam Cleaning , Pepsi Aqunafina Water. They have the resources to support the respective products. Are you willing to come forward & try Steam Cleaning ? Its no longer about "Crem1", its about if you will meet the challenge. Well, do you ??
Gentleman : Your remarks have been taken seriously. Be respectful. Tvad remarks should never have been published; they imply that AG sanctions undoctumented snipes/remarks against a Company Product (Aqunafina Water) :Based upon scientific evidence all negative remarks against Aquniafina Water are unfounded. "Coke" is nothing more than a subterfuge for mocking an American Marque.
You are not questioning one turntable vs another. Take care to make bald misconceptions against products where reams of scientific evidence exist against your unfounded,unscientific chatter.
As for Mapleshade Audio , read the unwavering , doctumentated support of Steam Cleaning & the offer to give your money back , provided, you meet the requirements as published.
Since we all agree that the rinse step is vital to a good cleaning, I choose to use the Casco Nerl Reagent grade water (5 gal- $55-) that was brought to my attention by JohnBrown. Although Pepsi and Aquafina may be a fine company they haven't undergone the rigorous testing for impurities that Nerl has, nor do they claim to. In fact Aquafina was found to be sourced from tap water and has been forced to add that to its list of contents. It may be fine but .....
As for Mapleshade Audio , read the unwavering , doctumentated support of Steam Cleaning & the offer to give your money back , provided, you meet the requirements as published.
I read that as an advertisement. $50 +/- worth of merchandise for $150-
Tvad- I used Coke to steam my records LIKE YOU INSISTED! At first the had a lot of energy, but after I left them out for a bit they all sound, well, flat.
Many of these small hand held steamers (Perfection, Living Solutions, SteamFast) are now difficult to find.
Tvad- Do you know why? Should I grab a spare while I still have access to them?
As far as the audible difference between rinses, I haven't developed the ability to hear the minute differences. By using the Casco Nerl I feel that I am doing my part to clean and protect my vinyl without introducing more contaminants than I started with. I don't doubt that some will claim to hear the difference in the products themselves. I still can't get over the fact that others can hear the difference during weather changes re: is it your hearing system that changes or the playback system that changes? But that is another question.
Love the Mapleshade steam gun, looks very 50's space movie style. Does it work as well as the others mentioned? Didn't realize how divesified the mapleshade guy was. Not happy about his use of old growth maple, though, even if he does employ the Amish to do it.
Tvad, maybe the new Coke is not the same formula, but in the olden days car collectors used coke to remove rust from chrome, first brought to my attention way back in the 70's by a marketing professor of mine, who was into vintage cars.
Funny you..... The marketing class I was in tried it, and it does work, or did then, for rust...can't attest to any other miracle claims...it made several of us give it up way back then, as best we could.
Maybe this has already been covered here, but seeing the Mapleshade site, and seeing their claim of the steam reaching only 140 degrees, isn't that really more like misting than actually steaming (I think of steam as very hot). Why not just warm your cleaning fluids or preferred water to 140 or so and spray? Why the need for this so-called steamer? And, one more, has anyone actually bought and used the Mapleshade steamer?
Chashas the old perfection steamer I use has pressure behind the steam It has force to help get deep inside the grooves. For my rinse cycles I think this has a positive effect on playback. Mike
So how do you know that it is really going deep inside the grooves as you say? Do you think it's the mist that does that, or just liquid in general? Why not just spray your record with an atomizer...has anyone tried that and compared? I had a small travel steamer once, really didn't work worth a damn. It was hardly more than a mister, slightly warm, nothing more. A real steamer to my mind emits steam, which is 212F, and that's hot. I would love to have somebody with a steamer try just spritzing their lp with the same amount of fluid they think they would administer with a "steamer" and report in.
Also, why does no one seem to own a Mapleshade steamer? No one seems to have said so on this thread.
Crem, since you seem to be in league with them, do you own one, why or why not?
I had a small travel steamer once, really didn't work worth a damn. It was hardly more than a mister, slightly warm, nothing more. A real steamer to my mind emits steam, which is 212F, and that's hot.
Actually steam has nothing to do with 212f, steam can occur at much lower temps. My Perfection steamer is very hot and would burn burn you (and I have) The hot steam reacts with the gunk in the grooves to loosen it better than if it was cold. Just like dishwashers work better at hotter temps. Plenty of others have cleaned records with tap water, Windex and everything else you can imagine, hot steam seems to get the really tough gunk that is easily audible during playback. Sometimes I have to steam a record more than once to get all the visible stuff off the surface and if you can see it you surely are going to hear it.
Chashas why don't you join in and try some of the items you listed Above and report back to us and contribute instead of asking Why not start trying. Not only in audio but in most things if you Don't try or I should say experiment you will never know for Your self what is possible. Good luck Mike
Thanks Mike, I experiment all the time, but such things cost money. And since you and others already have your steamers, I thought somebody could try it and see if warm misting would have the same affect. With an RCM, people close to me already had one, I watched, then listened, then bought. I'm not going to invest in something I'm not sure about, at least not at this time.
When I run out of my ultra pure water, I might take a B list lp and try the aqanuanafineanuna or whatever some call it and see on one side of the lp if it's the same as the other with the ultra pure. That type of experiment I'll gladly do and report back in.
Has anyone tried using a tea kettle that has a steam spout? or is real steam too hot? if it'd work at least it be cheap and easy to try.
Has anyone compared steam cleaning to the Walker four step Prelude system?
I used to steam clean but got tired of having to dry off labels and have been using the Walker method for a while - but wondering what produces better results (costs aside).
Madfloyd I used walkers cleaning system. For me steaming is better for a Quite playing record with better sound though before I discovered This thread that's what I used. When I steam clean my lps I use a vpi 16,5 to spin the lp while steaming Starting at the outside of the lp and work my way to the inside when I reach the dead wax I stop and the label stays dry. You also Could use a drinking glass with a large mouth to cover the label Mike
When I steam cleaned, I started at the edge and moved in towards the center but the spray of the steamer would splash upon hitting the LP... I don't see how you couldn't help but get the label wet.
I have not had problems with impacting labels unless i have a lot of cleaning fluid or rinse water on the record when i steam. The plume of the steam should be controlled to avoid hitting the label. Takes a little practice but worked well. I spin with one hand and direct the steam with another(i have a manual TT platform that I use to clean and steam on)
I have read this thread with great interest and I want to try this method. As the model originally available at Walgreens is now gone, what is the recommended steamer now? Also without having to read about a thousand posts, is there a place where one can read an overview or summary of what products to use/get?
Alan I've been using disk doctor cleaning fluids. Vpi 17f brushes With my 16,5 record cleaning machine. The rcm is not necessary as a Lazy susan works well for spinning your records. And as doak Mentioned steamers are available. Good luck and let us know Your progress. Mike
I'm new to audiogon and have relatively recently started steam cleaning LPs that look like they should play better then they do after using my Nitty Grittty. I have noticed that after steaming when I play the record the needle seems to gradually pick up a tiny fur ball of a light white appearing material-which comes off easily but as it gathers it affects-poorly-distortion-of the sound. After removing the fur ball and playing over the area again I can usually get to enjoy the record as it is as clean as it will be. What is this fur ball? Weirdly if I steam the record again another fur ball will form-usually a somewhat smaller one. I've done this 4 times on one LP and gotten 4 fur balls. And this happens on multiple records usually relatively clean ones. Any ideas?
the other possibility is using tap water in your steamer. It can through salts on the record. Been there done that. The best water is ro or double distilled. Less solids and less contamination
This is something i started doing recently and it has helped with LPs that have a lot of grunge and dust on it. Before you do anything pass the steamer across the LP and vacuum up before you put a brush to the record. This will get a majority of the dirt and funk off the record surface before it gets scrubbed into the grooves. This has almost eliminated the fuzz ball phenomenon on most records and also helps for a even quieter playing record..
Some of the points raised about level of heat involved got me thinking. I'm not so sure the idea of getting deep into the grooves makes sense giving that uses fine nylon brushes and lots of fluid should get in there pretty well.
I think the heat is killing bacteria and removing mold that otherwise remains when using cool/cold fluids. But who knows...
I keep thinking about a bit I heard on the news or science class about hot water on you face and skin and how it takes very little heat to open up human pores; the point was that you don't need scalding hot water, in conjunction with soap, to get clean. but I think it helps that we have "hot" vapor involved here of course.
I'm thinking about a simple pre-cleaning with steam and was looking the mini Joy Mangano units for about $5-10
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
