I have Gabriel Gold and Synergistic Research ICs in series. As far as I know there is no one doing else who has put these two XLR ICs in series. Without overstating things, the synergy is amazing -- detail, dynamics, sound stage, you name it. |
s, until you hear the cardas clear you haven't heard anything. the golden ref is very good but much more ordinary imho.
and i think the woofer is actually a 7 incher and that may help you understand why it can do what it can do. :-)
the plinius is going to have very wide bandwidth and you obviously like that. tubes by comparison won't have it but they may sound fuller in the mid bass.
have fun.
best, b |
Socrates7, in my system cabling and plugs are firmly grounded in reality. They would never be near the bottom of my list. |
1. More like Quads
2.First rule of system building, match your amp the the speaker you love.
3.Should almost always help if you know what you are doing, but possible to screw it up if you don't.
4.True, very true IMHO.
5. Yeah, but tweaking is fun.
6. I think they are mostly the same, except they can intentionally designed to be a filter. It is a religious argument to some extent, but to me, well built (forget designed) tend to sound pretty similar to me. But the Cardas sure don't do any harm to the Merlins, others might.
7. Harmless if you keep it cheap, once you are settled on your speaker and amp you need something to do, you could also buy more music. |
Not sure anyone is interested in total amp overkill, but a Class A Plinius amp managed to do ... ah ... something to the bass of my Merlins. Yeah. I had NO IDEA that 6" drivers could DO that. WOW.
BTW, GIK Acoustics is pretty good stuff. Affordable (by comparison), too.
As for audiophile cabling, yes, Bobby is a big proponent -- and I suppose anyone who's chatted with him knows his preferences for Cardas.
To be perfectly frank, I have had some experience with Merlin speakers and a whole loom of Golden Reference cabling, but was amazed by the difference between them and an all-Acoustic Zen loom. That is, I was amazed I couldn't tell them apart -- even when used with a Filarmonia (don't bother; I expect YMMV). I sold all my Cardas and bought a better DAC.
Stack ranking system system components:
1. Speakers: Merlins are *never* going to sound like Maggies.
2. Amp/Pre: want to maximize your speakers? Get an amp that is "better" (for your speakers).
3. Room Treatments: makes a difference, but whether that's a good change or not is debatable.
4. Source: you need to spend a lot to get very, very little.
5. Power: only relevant if yours is bad. Which it probably (statistically speaking) isn't.
6. Cabling: I firmly believe that this is a religious argument where neither side is grounded in either reality or actual science.
7. Tweaks (footers, racks, &c): Here Be Dragons. |
p, we try to take the effects of the room out of play to make the product refinements more easily understood.
it also makes for a great basis of judgement from year to year.
best, b
|
I forgot room treatment probably because I take it for granted in my system. There are long drapes covering a large double window behind my Merlins and long drapes covering a large double window on an adjacent wall. If I were to add any other room treatment it would be ART from Synergistic Research. I basically agree with your list, Bobby. I might make one change. For me the speakers are #1. Once the main components are in place then working with the cables and connections will have the biggest impact on the sound, IMHO, along with a couple of special tweaks -- Synergistic Research MIGS and EVS Ground Enhancers. In the end what matters is the synergy of all of the elements in the system. Oh, I forgot one other thing -- the Synergistic Research PowerCell power conditioner. |
I think it is one of the reasons your speakers do so consistently well at shows - the speaker has something to do with too:) |
agreed paul, the room is most important especially to get it tuned to the way your speaker radiates energy. you must get it to the point where there is minimal reflected energy at the seating position, at least for my products. at shows you have seen drapes used to great advantage behind the speakers, room tunes for the early/primary reflection points and their corner tunes for damping mirrors and corners where the walls meet the ceiling.
it is like a traveling treatment show. i have used these for 15 years at all the shows hence, the usual look to my rooms. same goes for the work room at home.
best, b |
Would you be comfortable recommending particular room treatment products? or would you rather send as a private e-mail? I always notice your room treatments at the shows, but never took note of what you were actually using. When I brought bass traps for behind the speakers, and side absorbing panels for early reflections, I would say that was by far and away the most signdicant change in sound from any other changes of have made around the VSMs. |
imho, the room/treatments, the speakers, the cables and connections, sources, line level and amplification with good clean ac is my order of preference/importance. they are placed in the order of the biggest possible change in sound for the least amount of money spent.
food for thought.
best, bobby at merlin |
I have found that my amplifier is just the beginning of the story with my Merlins. Too much emphasis is placed on the amplifier here without talking about the synergy of the Merlins with cabling and plugs, IMHO. The amplifier does not stand alone nor do the Merlins. They are both only as good as the cabling that is fed into them and the cabling that comes out of them, as well as the CDP. There is a huge difference to be heard with the Merlins depending on the cabling attached to them, assuming you have a good amp and a good CDP in your system.
I understand when one is quickly tempted to ascribe any short-comings in the sound to the Merlins or the amplifier or the CD player when, in fact, those short-comings are often due to cabling and plugs. Before I upgraded my cabling and plugs I was ascribing short-comings in the sound of my system to one or another of its components. Having heard the sound improve greatly with changes in cabling and plugs I realize that it was not the components that were at fault. I was at fault for not realizing that cabling and plugs are also components. Not having the "right" cabling and plugs for your system brings the system down to the weakest link in the chain. |
Ok, tweeter aside, back to the OP!
I've recently tried a Luxman L-590aII integrated on my VSM-MXR speakers and thought the pairing very interesting. Like the Sugden, the Luxman class-A sound might be considered by some to be a bit euphonic, but that said, it was a fine companion.
I'd be interested in finding a nice, linear grain-free amp/pre combo that has great extension without sacrificing the mids. Doesn't have to be a "tube-replacement", but that'd be nice. LOL. |
Paul
There is a pair of deHavilland GM-70's on agon. I don't know of anything that would sound better.
They won't heat your house however.
Jim |
Arj, this sounds to me like it could be be a cable problem, not a problem with the speakers, per se, IMHO. Out of the box I was disappointed with my Merlins until I chose the right cabling and plugs for them. Now they sound amazing. If you feed them with cables that are "bright" then "bright" will come out the other end. I have found that it takes a lot of experimenting with cables and plugs to get it right with the Merlins -- ICs, SCs and PCs. I was amazed at how much their sound changed as I changed cabling. It seems like their ability to deliver improved sound is limitless -- only limited by what they are fed with. |
I am not really sure if it is the tweeter to be blamed. even with the TSM MMes getting the amp (SS/Tube) right is necessary..Regarding the so called brightness, I would really put that to the transparency of the speaker ..with no rolloff. what you hear is what the amp is giving as output :)
With my leben using the stock Sovtek 6L6GCs the highs were kind of hard and sharp. with the Winged C's and the Russian Reflecter equivalents they are smooth and extended |
Yes, I did hear them myself and there was no hint of aggressive highs. In fact, they were outstanding each time I heard them. |
I have to agree, the Esotar is known to be among the very best tweeters available - no tweeter gets that hard earned reputation being agressive. The Merlin is balanced from top to bottom, one of the qualities that make it such a desirable speaker. |
I had Merlins Vsm Mx speakers for several years and I ran them Quicksilver Triodes, Cary Sixpacs and heard the Belles 150A Hot Rod extensively and I can tell you that the highs were absolutely, positively never aggressive. The esotar tweeter is smooth and non fatiguing. |
Rgs2, I have the Merlin TSM mmi monitors and the highs are not too aggressive in my system. I do a lot of tweaking, as you know. |
Thanks Brf, I had the same thought.
The Esotar is just so fine in Dynaudios. |
The Dynaudio Esotar D330/A tweeter has aggressive highs?? That's a first. |
Thanks guys!
I considered the Merlins a few years ago after hearing
them and being impressed at the NY show, but I
didn't get them because someone warned me they had
too aggressive highs, which I wanted to avoid in a speaker.
Now I have Harbeths and find them not as detailed or resolving as I would like and was used to with my old
Aerial 10Ts. |
Hello.....I use a VTL ST 85 EL34 based amp with my Merlin TSMXe speakers. I like it with tubes, but also use a pair of upgraded Odyssey Khartargo Mono Blocks which are SS in the summer. I also like them. Just a different presentation to the music, both sound good just different. I also like Tetrode mode better than Triode in my tube amp...go figure. But also using Amperex/ Mullard Holland EL 34 tubes........$$$$ |
Had a Mac7270/C30 combo for a couple years with the VSM-MM,s.Very nice,the Edge should be as good as Rowlands though overdamped as well which isn't a dealbreaker,just not Bobby's preference as his shows attest to.Maybe he's changing also,who knows?Its all good,cheers,Bob |
Does anyone thing the Merlin VSMs would work well with an
Edge NL12.1 (especially in the highs, not being to raw or tipped up)? Sorry for adding another question to the thread here. Thank you. |
It is well known that tubes work beautifully with Merlins. But I believe some are under the impression that you have to use tubes with Merlins to have great sound and that just isn't the case.
I like posts like this so misconceptions can be cleared up. Merlins, like any great speaker, sound wonderful with tube or SS when care is taken in set up. And that's great for guys like me that just don't want tubes.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE tubes. In fact, for a season, I had VSMs with a great tube set up and I may have tubes again in the future. I still miss that set up. But I enjoy my TSMs with cheap NAD SS just as much in its context.
Pubul57, hang in there. You'll ind SS amplification that you can enjoy in those summer months. I know it.
Cheers,
Scott |
I have two tube amps (Music Reference and Atma-sphere), recently 3 - they are not going anywhere - just want to try and find a "successful" SS pairing. I have no doubt that tubes and Merlin are the way to go as a general rule as they let tubes do what they do so well (and some speakers don't). |
Lrsky- I think tubes is the answer but the op is probing for solid state amps;but if he is open to tubes I agree 100% with your post. |
Why not tubes?
Those who know Bobby, know of his fondness for tubes--and know that his designs are such that tubes can drive them without any problems.
Just wondering, it seems a natural choice.
Larry |
paul, i would agree and would love to hear what you think of the ss amps with autoformers. mc that is.
i liked them.
b |
Pubul, if you opt to audition/purchase the Mcintosh, I would love to hear your feedback on the combo. |
David, how did the Belles compare with your Joule and Ars Sonum? Fair comparison? I would love it if the Belles 150A Reference were in their category driving Melrins, but.... |
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the Belles 150a Hot Rod. |
Bobby thanks for the feedback |
rleff, smooth spacious and perhaps not as robust sounding as the mc but very good.
best, b |
Bobby do you think the older Jeff Roland amps models 6,8,or 9 would be a good match;I run model 6 monoblocks on usher rw729's and would think the Merlins would love these amps. |
Arj, unfortuantely I hear you:) It feels a bit like chasing your tail. Why, I might just bite the bullet and by a Mac 6600 that will outlast me and be done with it. May not be the very best, but it is quite good and will be with me when I retire in 10-15 years or so. |
Pubul57,yes the upgrade to the forte 4a was a major improvement. |
Pubul57, i've used a Sugden A21a with the Merlins for almost a year. it was really very good, especially midrange/Vocals.
But then i tried a Leben CS600 (almost 3 times the cost) and have not looked back since.. |
You mean the "upgrade" to the Forte 4A was a big improvement? |
For many years I used a HK reciever for my tsm me's-they
sounded great-i use a modright denon 2900 truth tube cd
player in the direct mode on the hk-recently bought a Forte
4a class a amp from a friend-I use the hk as a pre-amp
in the direct mode and the difference was unbelievable-no comparision. |
FWIW, I've been running my TSM-mmi's (not VSM's) with a pair of Manley Mahi's in triode mode, mostly -- roughly 24 watts into 6 ohms, and they sound great and play plenty loud, too. YMMV, naturally. |
Ayre,Mac,Counterpoint,Rega,maybe one other I cant think of were all quite nice.Those speakers are so versatile.Been 7 years now and the only thing I dont lust to change.Tube amps I've used seemed no better or worse,good luck,B |
The 6600, though not Class A, is certainly on my short list. |
I own TSM-mme's not VSM's (someday) but can speak to the amp question.
I use both the McIntosh 275 tube amp and the MC-402 solid state. The tubes are excellent but the reality is I prefer the sound of the MC-402 as do other listeners. You also get the added benefits of instant on from the remote and no tube maintenance.
I also listened to the Merlins on an Arcam integrated and a Marantz integrated. They were OK too and had their own unique presentation however were not keepers.
I had prejudiced my own thoughts that transistors can never sound as good as tubes. In this case I was wrong.
Just my 2 cents. |
Though I would love it to be the case, I am not looking to improve upon the Atma-sphere OTLs, just something I could live with happily. I also suspect that I might have to stick with Class A (Sugden, Luxman, Pass, etc.), but I am willing to try A/B. While I would consider an amp, I am leaning towards an integrated. So, no, I don't expect something better than what I already have, just viable alternative that Merlin fanatics have found to work well with their speakers, and the Merlin match is the key, for obviously some speakers need SS or high power, high current amps - thankfully the Merlins are not so demanding of quantity, but they sure do benefit from quality. |
My only datapoint is swapping the Berning ZH-270 out of my VSM mme rig with the Audio Research 100.2. As much as I consider the 100.2 probably the finest solid state amp that I have owned, it just doesn't compare with the Berning driving the VSM's. |
paul, the 30 watts will be fine.
bobby |
I've read up on the A21 line, Pubul57. If I recall the A21a should be fine also and has a sweeter presentation than the A21SE. |
