I'm only wondering how much of a real world factor it is with high quality, high fidelity speakers. On compressed pop/rock and especially the more modern stuff on CD; Green Day/Red Hot Chilli's/Metallica/Artic Monkeys/Kooks/most remasters and thousands of others - not an issue at all - as the music is already compressed crap anyway!!! On old school dynamic recordings - classical, Mahler, Shostakovich or great jazz recordings of big band and Sheffield Labs/Chesky/XRCD type stuff it is a HUGE issue. The life of the music is robbed by compression. After a few seconds at the start of the track you are already hearing compression. Remember at 87 db if you have a large room then your speakers may be at an average of 95 db - already the "average" music at that level is starting to be compressed - so naturally the peaks or what immediately follows them will be even more compressed and worse even "modulated" by the rapid cooling and heating of the voice coil from percussion elements. This is why piano rarely sounds realistic and often sounds like a recording. Analogy: Think of the voice coil as being like the thin resitive wire in a light bulb...how fast does that get hot - what do you think the heat and momentarily increased resistance does to the transient behaviour and timbre of sounds - well it modifes it significantly!! It is easy to hear - the first few seconds of a loud passage will sound crisp detailed and clear and then it will rapidly start to sound dull. For example Michael Jackson Bille Jean - the opening will be clear and punchy and crystal clear (like a shotgun) and then it will soon become dull and loose its edge on most speakers. |
Shadorne, I'm not hearing that. I DO sit near-field due to my room shape and the furniture layout, so maybe I'm not compressing my drivers much even with an 87dB avg at the listening position.
This weekend I'll torture myself for a while to see if I can simulate it in my system.
Dave |
I DO sit near-field due to my room shape and the furniture layout Absolutely not a problem then. This is why consumer speakers tend to go with the lower cost drivers (pro drivers with large voice coils sound no better at low volumes than consumer type drivers, IMHO). As you move to a near field position compression is much less of a problem because every time you half the distance to teh speaker you gain 6 db - so you get back all that headroom that you only lose if the speaker is driven too hard. You probably need to be at least 8 feet or more back and to be listening loud (at realistic levels) to start to run into this issue in a significant way on most floorstanders. I believe this is often the situation in setups with floorstanders. I believe this is one of the principle reasons you find things sound "messy" with some demos you have heard of other speakers with full orchestra classical and big band.( Xmax limitations might be the other issue especially on designs with long coils in short gap where the linear operating region is often not as good as specifications might suggest - some drivers publish VC physical gap geometry calculated Xmax as oppposed to the more stringent 10% linear tolerance) |
Another example, on the subject of compression, in this case "ringing" may rob the midrange of dynamic range Stereophile Review. Ringing also reduces the contrast or sharpness in transients which is why Quad 57's are cherished (with its nice waterfall) for being "fast" and beautifully detailed even if they are limited dynamically. |
Acoustat6, I'm unwilling to dive for the volume control once I have established the right volume level otherwise. With most systems, Das Reingold forces you to otherwise keep the volume at a level that is unrealistically low.
Shadorne's comments about compression are right on. FWIW, Classic Audio Reproductions has been using and are developing field coil drivers (at the recent AudioKarma show they demo'd the speaker with FC woofers and midrange).
Otherwise, one of the advantages of Alnico is that fact that the magnetic structure can be focused on the gap; saturation is easy enough and one of the measures of the designer's mettle is 'is it still saturated at 105 or 110db?' With heating and the like, that's a bit of a trick!
BTW in an average room where you are 8-10 feet from the speaker, a speaker with 89 db 1watt/1meter efficiency could need 250 to 500 watts to make 110db (how dead the room is will play a role too so this power requirement could be a lot higher, OTOH a lively room may well prevent one from being able to hit lifelike peaks without discomfort). You really don't want the amp to be clipping at it highest volume, so its easy to see how hard it is to work with inefficient speakers. If you happen to prefer tubes, 200 watts is a practical upper limit before the term 'gold-plated decibels' really starts to hit home!
Once you have heard how important this is, it gets hard to take inefficiency seriously. |
Atmasphere said:
"BTW in an average room where you are 8-10 feet from the speaker, a speaker with 89 db 1watt/1meter efficiency could need 250 to 500 watts to make 110db (how dead the room is will play a role too so this power requirement could be a lot higher, OTOH a lively room may well prevent one from being able to hit lifelike peaks without discomfort). You really don't want the amp to be clipping at it highest volume, so its easy to see how hard it is to work with inefficient speakers. If you happen to prefer tubes, 200 watts is a practical upper limit before the term 'gold-plated decibels' really starts to hit home!"
Perhaps this explains my gravitation to SS for speakrs. My Rowland Continuum 500 gives me 1000 watts into my speakers' 4 ohm load and I sit only about 8' to 10' away, with a 91dB sensitivity for the Vienna Acoustics. When listening seriously I generally run the volume at a level that results in 85 to 87dB averages, with peaks in the 90s on pop and jazz and in the 105-110dB range on classical. Those peaks seldom last very long in the music that I listen to.
Dave |
Shadorne, that JBL paper where they compared the thermal compression of different woofers and the Alnico magnet TAD compressed by about 7 dB within a few seconds is grossly misleading. I hate to say this about the JBL guys, but they deliberately chose test conditions that made their competition look very very bad.
Alnico has less loss of magnetic flux with heating than ceramic does, up until the point that you overheat it. Then, Alnico loses flux permanently; it becomes partially de-magnetized, whereas a ceramic magnet will regain its flux once it cools off.
What JBL did was to overheat the Alnico magnet. They damaged it, and I doubt that was accidental. That test is not an accurate depiction of how an Alnico magnet performs when it is not abused.
Duke |
Duke,
Thanks - I figured that might be the case - the dirty rotten cheats ;-) (all is fair in marketing!)
It was however hard to find links to solid examples that show that compression really is a big issue. Perhaps I chose the wrong example.
It would be great if there were more examples about this poorly understood issue but I don't think speaker manufacturers like to raise these issues too often. I understand that if you sell several drivers - some pro and some lower cost then it might be at cross purposes to emphasize how your lower cost drivers might be compressing quite severely. (You just killed sales on your most popular mass produced item in order to try to sell a very few high priced items!!!) |
Thought I'd get back to everyone on progress. By the way - a lot of great comments, very enlightening and really opened up some options and considerations. Had not thought of actives but now that is a real option. As to recent demo's and what I have found - of course, a matter of my tastes only - I am sure all of the products I have demo'd are very good (still a lot to go) - B&W 803s and 804s - both nice - 803s a little "fuller" and a sounded better at low spl's than the 804s - but not perfect. 803d and 802d - did not like - 'screechy' at high spl's and sounded strained all driven with Mac 402. Of note, the 802d triggered the power guard on mac 402 at high spl on Fischer's Mahler 2 on Channel Classics - not significant just found it interesting. Montior audio 60 - nothing wrong with this one - just did not do anything for me. Dali 400 mk 2 - nice sounding - about on par with the 803s a very nice sounding speaker. PSB synchrony 1 - actually very nice - was surprised - just did not expect much - but it held up nicely at fairly high spl's - 102 on Mahler and on Von Karajan DG utopia (1962). Tended to not break up or get too bright at high spl's. Meridian 5200 dsp - too bright for me at high spl - pretty much the same with all of the Focals. Genelec active 8040 - nice, clean, held up very well at high spl's - intend to travel to hear higher models. Dynaudio BM5's? also nice - fit right in between the genelec and a mackie 824. So progress. Any further comments are welcome - this may give you an idea of my tastes etc. Also surprised that more folks aren't mac fans - again, any reaonably informative comments are welcome. |
not all "classical" music is orchestral. among those musical selections which are written for orchestra, some do have huge swings in spl.
thus, it is possible to listen to many musical selections and achieve realism of timbre, at listening levels which never exceed 85 db.
those reading these posts realize that many panel speakers do a decent job of reproducing classical music, at levels not exceeding 85 db.
as i was listening to a cd yesterday, i was using a radio shack meter to asess the range of spl. as i was listening, my wife asked me to turn down the volume. at the time my radio shack meter registered 80 db.
what's the point ? 85 db is subjectively loud in my opinion. exceeding 85 db is unnecessary in most cases, as far as i am concerned. i usually set my volume at about 70 db. loud passages are in the high 80s.
next time i attend a symphony orchestra concert, i will bring an spl meter to determine loudness. since i sit in the last row of the prchestra, i bet most of the time, the meter reading is less than 90 db. listening louder than that is too loud for me. |
Loudness is certainly subjective. 80 dB is loud, but not LOUD. If I were trying to have a conversation, 75 dB is too loud. For rock 80 dB is mezzo-piano. It's all relative.
I have thought about taking an SPL meter to the symphony many times, never remember to do it. I suspect Mr.T is correct that the level won't exceed 90 in the back row, perhaps peaks will register in the mid 90s mid orchestra and only the front few rows will get anything approaching 100.
I put on the Sheffield Drum & Track CD yesterday. Cranked it until a few peaks were just tipping an amp into clipping. Peaks still didn't exceed 100 dB at listening position and it was good'n loud almost as loud as a drummer sitting in front of me. |
Alnico magnets conduct heat away from voice coil. Alnico has benifits in sound quality to me this could be 1 reason why. Plus many alnico mag drivers are hi-eff designs so require low power again producing little heat compared to conventional dynamic designs which require massive power to produce dynamics or hi-spl. So heat in alnico mags again is a nonissue has no - effect on performance. Seems many of the problems folks like to point out about horns or compression drivers are not real performance problems. Great thing about online is you can find info to prove most any point even if said info is wrong or biased Reading about audio is great but exparamenting and actual experance is of much higher value.. |
And I always thought '3' was the magic number, but apparently its 85.lol |
MrT, I think its all about loudness cues. The orchestra, being pure, has the least of all and so one can enjoy it being loud a lot easier than one can a stereo, which will have more loudness cues due distortion. Occasionally enough that others might object!
Once rid of artificial loudness cues, the normal urge is to turn up the volume. I would be very interested to find out what sound pressure levels you experience in your hall and with what music. I have measured 105db peaks at the 15th row. The music was Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis. |
105db on Mikas Theodorakis? Sorry to hear that. . . I originally thought that Mikas Theodorakis was simply unbearably repetitive and tediously facile. . . now I learn that he can also be painfully loud. One more reason to avoid him, I guess. G. |
Do we really need the use of an SPL meter and all this db talk? me being a simpleton I just hit the volume pot (or button on the remote) either up or down as required. When at a gig I have no control of the volume the band play at I just move further back if it is to loud, I always carry plugs for gigs other than classical. I have never found a classical concert to loud for my ears. |
Once rid of artificial loudness cues, the normal urge is to turn up the volume. Absolutely! Distortion is what makes 99% of systems sound extremely loud when they are not. Either distortion from the system itself or distortion on the recording itself (often from compression which is necessary because most music is heard on crap systems). An acoustic drum set can hit 115 db SPL if you stand close to it - so can a grand piano and a trumpet...sure it takes effort to play that loud and it will rarely last more than a few seconds or the performer will be quickly exhausted and so will the listener (or you are at a Metallica concert which is a marathon of loudness which the only the young may endure). The reality is that to convey the entire musical performance and get those final crashing crescendos and "accents" to the music then you really do need something that can do a whole lot louder than 85 db spl max and even 100 db SPL is severely limiting in many instances (if a realistic reproduction is desired). Imagine you are in a jazz club and you happen to be standing in front of Miles Davis... when he lets it rip we are talking about 140 db SPL at four feet (in the direction he points that trumpet)...for sure at 20 feet it will be a lot less maybe only 110 db SPL as he would bounce the sound off the ceiling (he is entertaining you and not trying to deafen you). The 100 db SPL maximum that most consumer dynamic speakers will achieve (if lucky) at the typical listening position is missing a whopping 20 db of dynamic range! This is some 30% of useful dynamic range (above the noise floor) that just ain't there. This shortcoming (be it most speakers or that over compressed modern pop CD) is the "elephant on the table" that hardly anybody dares talk about anymore because horns have been largely displaced from consumer markets and nobody likes to bring it up (especially reviewers) |
Shadorne, I think you're really overstating the dynamic range of live performance and understating the dynamic level of widely available conventional speakers.
I've taken my SPL meter to big band and orchestra rehearsals and taken readings right in the middle of the trumpet section and rhythm section. The loudest readings have been 112dB about ten-feet from a particularly obnoxious rock drummer that didn't know how to play jazz. If I put the meter on the stand in the trumpet section it only hits 110dB with the section playing just over the stand tops. (Yes, I can put it inches front my trumpet and blast 130dB, but it's extremely directional and falls off very quickly).
At the conductor's stand you're only talking 105 to 110dB at the peaks, occasionally tipping up for "punch notes", but seldom staying there for a second.
So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.
I DO agree that horns have something to offer in improved dynamic range, but I think that the improvement is more incremental and less dramatic than your example would lead one to believe.
Great discussion.
Dave |
Ah yes, taking a sound pressure meter along to a classical concert is so very poetic. . . it reminds me of the guy who was so enthrolled by his girlfriend's amorous enthusiasms, that he always remembered to take along a digital multimeter to measure sceintifically the peak levels of various electrochemical responses during all their overnight dates. . . . for some very odd reason, I tend to trust my ears and my emotions instead. G. |
it reminds me of the guy who was so enthralled by his girlfriend's amorous enthusiasms, that he always remembered to take along a digital multimeter to measure sceintifically the peak levels of various electrochemical responses during all their overnight dates Glandular activity or energy level is what he should be analysing... By the way, Guido for some very odd reason, I tend to trust my ears and my emotions instead Tsk, tsk, isn't that hopelessly & haplessly romantic? Really now, at this day and age!:) |
So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range. I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position ). Even the revered JL F113 sub can barely cut it - which is why some people have opted for two of them! However bass response is not the whole issue - midrange and tweeter compression and amp clipping from non-horn designs is quite standard at these levels - I mean standard - I mean on 99% of audiophile systems. Yes indeed - talk of an "elephant" is no exaggeration. Soundstage show a test measurement of a Watt Puppy 8 tweeter starting to compress at 95 db SPL at 2 meters! Far from disappointing - this is actually very good but quite typical. Soundstage state in their description of loudspeaker testing that they don't typically test speakers at higher levels such as 100 db SPL because most of them would be damaged at this level -they are being truthful. Sure looks like an elephant to me -when you clearly and correctly state above that a speaker shoudl EASILY reach 105 to 110 db SPL at the listening position and yet Soundstage say this would damage most speakers! I make no exaggeration. I suspect that many Klipsch and other large horn speaker owners know what I am speaking of when they describe the "live" sound of horns - the detail - the clarity - the effortless dynamics. These speakers sound live because many of these systems can actually retain the dynamic transients of real instruments cleanly up to 110 db spl. Unfortunately ubiquitous sound from car stereos, restaurants, boomboxes and radios with typical compressed audio CD's from recording/mastering studios (which make their audio mostly for these mediums rather than horn speaker systems) have lulled most people into being blissfully happy with conventional dynamic speakers...totally unaware that a problem even exists. Concerns/efforts are directed towards source and preamp and other issues that actually pale in comparison to the loss of dynamic range from typical speaker compression/distortion. Many people chase massive monoblock amplifiers to try to compensate for what is really a speaker design limitation. To me this is one of the principle reasons that most people will agree that most audio playback sounds nothing like the real live thing. Some horn users know differently...all IMHO of course. I respect that you and many others will disagree. I could not expect anything less, understandably, 99% of speaker owners with conventional dynamic consumer type speakers (the type that would get damaged at 100 db SPL) will deny there is an "elephant on the table". |
06-24-08: Shadorne said:
"So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.
I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position )."
I said 105-110dB and there's a lot of difference between 105 and 110, BUT I routinely measure 105dB peaks at my listening position, 7-feet back from the speakers' plain. They're only $3500 Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands. My Rowland Continuum 500 is capable of 1000 clean watts RMS into their 4 ohm load and much higher peaks, so I'm not hamstrung for power, given their 92dB sensitivity.
Because I'm a musician and chose with my ears, maybe I gravitated toward a pretty dynamic speaker, BUT I don't really think that the VA's performance is all that rare in this regard.
Please realize that I'm not putting 105dB sine waves through my speakers. I suspect that'd be a recipe for disaster. Orchestral peaks, IME, tend to only last fractions of a second, then settle quickly down around 100dB and diminuendo back down to 80-something dB quickly.
Guido, BTW, I only take my SPL meter to rehearsals. I'd never think of sullying an actual performance with such techno-dweeb activity. ;-)
Dave |
When I recorded Canto General, I made sure that we had the best bass drum in the Twin Cities. The score calls for nearly 40 different percussion instruments and a 60-voice choir.
The piece is spectacular, very passionate, with hints of Carl Orff. We recorded it without compression and we were at the limits of what the media could do for dynamic range.
Most people have no idea how loud an orchestra can play because there are no artificial harmonic artifacts. But having been there when it was recorded, I find it crucial to have as much efficiency as possible so long as bandwidth and resolution are not compromised. This allows the home system to play without loudness artifact also. |
Dave,
Sure most dynamic speakers can probably achieve 105 db SPL peaks at 7 feet that with 1000 watts behind them. The issue is how clean and uncompressed are those peaks.
This was my point about giving a link to what many audiophiles regard as a relatively dynamic speaker with good slam compared to others - the Watt Puppy 8's are certainly no slouch when it comes to dynamics. No doubt they too can easily reach 105 db SPL peaks when driven by 1000 watts.
However, the question is how much compression must be endured to achieve this? As Ralph has pointed out 1000 watts is all very well but that is a lot of heat (since more than 97% becomes heat) and heat means thermal compression. (Ok for a subwoofer with massive 4 inch voice coil perhaps - but that tweeter and midrange can only take so much. Lower impedance drivers just mean that more current flows through the coils and create even more heat)
So I must ask what use is it to achieve the 105 db SPL peak if in reality it should have been 111 db SPL because the speaker voice coils are running hotter than a toaster oven - something to consider!
I don't think many people know about this - so you would not be alone in believeing that 105 db SPL is so "easily" achieved by most speakers at the listening position - when it is not. It is obscure and speaker manufactuers and driver manufacturers and reviewers do not appear to want to educate us about this issue. Several manufacturers add a second midrange driver on larger dynamic models for a good reason - it gets them an extra 3 db before compression hits - very little benefit in reality - and of course it includes a heavy compromise due to the lobbing effects from driver interference - but the alternative is to design drivers that play louder without compression - of which you can probably only sell a few of - so you can see which is easier ...just double up on the popular drivers also used in the lower models (and bought in large quantities) to get a modest 3 db gain in dynamics for your highest end model. They aren't likely to tell you that the added driver is largely to eek out an extra 3 db SPL, as all the marketing will speak to the beautifully "controlled vertical dispersion"... |
Shardorne, I'm actually measuring those peaks, with my speakers, in my room. I don't think the peaks are lasting long enough to lead to significant compression when listening to actual music in my system.
Those graphs you showed a few days ago of some top flight speakers really didn't display much compression when compared to the frequency response graphs for the same speakers. Adding less than 1% due to compression on top of a curve that's flucuating several percent seems small and perhaps not all that obvious.
Believe me, I'll be listening to horn speakers at the next RMAF to see what I hear. Assuming that horns now produce a natural midrange, then I'll be very interested to hear the true impact of this added dynamic capacity. If I hear something I like, then I'll be following with my wallet. I already know that Duke will be there and I hope that a few others from the genre will be represented.
What a speaker can do with a sine wave for several seconds is not of great interest to me, if it doesn't correlate with my actual listening experience. The compression shown on the graphs your referenced took seconds to start building up. I think that's way longer than typical musical peaks above 105dB (live or recorded).
Dave |
I don't think the peaks are lasting long enough to lead to significant compression when listening to actual music in my system.
What a speaker can do with a sine wave for several seconds is not of great interest to me, if it doesn't correlate with my actual listening experience.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Especially those with dynamic speakers. I think you bring up some very good points on thermal compression, such as the lengths of the peaks. For sure some music will be more forgiving than others. Have you considered though that driver non-linearities above Xmax are another form of compression (as the voice coil travels further outside the linear region of the magnetic field with large cone excursion). Again horns tend to have an advantage there too. A demo at RMAF is a great idea - if they will allow you to play that loud. Sheffield Labs Drum track is a good stress test. |
Salk HT3 or any Salk according to your budget. AV123 according to your budget. If more bottom end is desired, a Rythmik servo sub for a tight, precise, accurate, musical subwoofer. |
Hi Atma, now that you mention a hint of Karl Orff. . . I remember listening to Cantos General on the radio. . . quantitatively, a most impressive work. |
"quantitatively, a most impressive work"
I must give this a listen. Surely must sound better in digital/CD format than in phono/analog!!! I'd also like to run a sum check on the file and compare the total to other works!!!!
Now I think I've discovered how to truly quantify the merits of any partilular piece of art, as long as its in digital format! |
Guidocorona and Mapman, Mikas Theodorakis was there to conduct, and said that in over 200 performances worldwide, it was the best sound that he had heard. So I think we did OK on the production and recording side. It is available on CD and I just recently found a few more sealed LPs (made from the analog master tapes), which we had thought had sold out 15 years ago!
It is a challenging piece to reproduce so I often have it at shows as a demo. I've seen a lot of speakers and amps fall flat on their collective faces trying to reproduce it. |
Hi Atma, jokes aside, I'd be very interested in listening to the recording. . . to late now to use it for my current review project. . . want to finish on Friday. |
Guido, sorry for the off-point commentary on my part Your choice of words to describe the work mentioned by Atmasphere just struck a silly bone in me.
Cheers! |
Fear not Mapman, I sport several of those sillybones myself! G. |
|
I've heard Hansen Audio Prince v2s, and they were tremendous in all respects. I noticed that there was a tangential discussion on the "Rite of Spring" versions, and for my money, Valery Gergiev's live account is hard to beat. It's by far the most bloodthirsty account, way outclasses the Ozawa version. Sure it might not be as polished or detailed as some versions, but Gergiev really gets the violence of the piece. Also, it might be worth going for the Stravinsky 3 ballets LP set from Speakers Corner if you need a "Rite" LP.
Anyway, the Princes were amazing with the Rite, as well as the Mahler 2nd conducted by Ivan Fischer. The field of sound was huge. The music sounded open, liquid & honest. No compromises on low end, either. Just tremendous; one of the very best I've heard.
That said, I still prefer my Harbeth Super HL5s for small ensemble chamber pieces and piano solos. The tone is warmer, more refulgent. Not as "transparent" as the Princes, but very clear, too. Listening to late Beethoven quartets or the last Schubert sonatas is perhaps my favorite listening activity; and the Harbeths are very hard to beat for this. It also helps that the Harbeths are a very easy load for amplifiers (I'm using 28 wpc from Leben CS600). I'm very keen to try some speakers with PHY HP drivers, though... |
Well I moved up to a pair of JM Lab 927BE Speakers and the midrange and highs are simply light years beyond the older Thiels I had for some time. Truly a great speaker and usually a pair comes up on Audiogon every month or so. They also look as good as they sound. |
Dynamics are the main limitations of Quads and Maggies for that matter when it comes to accurately reproducing large scale symphonic works.
My current Ohm Walsh speakers are the best I've owned at that. |
Just found this thread today, and it is very interesting to me, as I am a professional orchestral musician, and am playing in the orchestra almost daily. I am not much of a "techno geek" at all, and do not pay much attention to actual specs, numbers, etc. of different components. I rely on my ears. What they tell me basically agrees with the posters like Atmasphere and Shadorne - if you want to reproduce an orchestra at full volume, you have to go with horn speakers and tubes. Another area in which the horn speakers are superior to me is in soundstaging. This is especially important in opera, as well as symphonic music, but is also important for chamber music as well. The warmth in the tube sound is also a much more accurate reproduction of the sound of a really good concert hall than any solid-state amp I have ever heard - simply a more life-like sound (these people wanting a "neutral" sound crack me up - concert halls are definitely NOT neutral - I don't want my music sounding as dead as it does in a recording studio). The horn speaker/tube amp combination also in my opinion gives you better imaging, and certainly a much greater dynamic range. I agree with Atmasphere that the end of Das Rheingold, the Solti recording, is one of the best tests I know of for the upper end of the dynamic range. The horns also give you that directness of sound that is very similar to live music. As nice as say the Sonus Faber's sound, they are much more "laid back," as the reviewers like to say, than a live orchestra in a good hall. Yes, sometimes horn tweeters can be very much "in your face" sounding, but this is what the orchestra, or a jazz trumpet in a jazz club, or an electric guitar turned up way too much (as they almost always are) will sound like live. My gripe about the electrostats or planars, besides the fact that they don't work well with tubes because they need so much power, is that the listening spot is so small, relative to dynamic speakers or horns, and placement is way too finicky - you basically have to have a dedicated listening room to make those work properly. Horn speakers will sound great set up just about anywhere, and you can drive them with anything you want.
So I hope that the original poster does decide to take a look at horns. You can find some nice older Klipsch speakers used here on audiogon or ebay. I bought my Klipsch Cornwall 2's here on audiogon for a very good price. My uncle has the old Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers, and they are some of the best I have ever heard. I am actually more familiar with the more vintage equipment than with the newer horn designs, most of which I have not heard, but in my experience, horns are the way to go. Oh, and classical music places so much more demands on the equipment (much wider dynamic range, many more different timbres to reproduce, etc.) than any other type that any speaker that is good enough for classical will certainly be good enough for anything else. |
Learsfool : What preamp and amp are you using to drive those Klipsch Cornwall's and what preamp and amp is your uncle using to drive the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater's ? |
Musicnoise, as I said, I have to have tube amplification. Since I only recently put together my first high end system and budget was a huge factor for me, I went with a tube integrated amp - the new PrimaLuna Dialogue Two. I chose it for alot of reasons I won't go into at the moment. I am very happy with it, but eventually I will want to get separates; I am interested in SET amplifiers in particular - a friend of mine has a beauty that puts out just three quarters of a watt. He drives a single Klipschorn with it, for mono listening. Now that's old school! Of course, many of those old mono LP's from the "golden age" of audio sound fantastic. They certainly do not record orchestras nowadays anywhere near as well as they did in the 50's and 60's.
My uncle drives his Altecs with an Assembly ST-40, along with the Audible Illusions Modulus 3A pre. He also uses some Fane horn tweeters with the Altec's, by the way. He's pretty old school, too, as am I.
I will say that I am indeed a fan of the McIntosh tube amps, especially the MC275. I forget which one you said you had, but assuming it's a tube amp, I wouldn't change it if you really like it. It will match well with horns or pretty much anything. |
"They certainly do not record orchestras nowadays anywhere near as well as they did in the 50's and 60's. "
There are a lot of amazing orchestral recordings from that era on original vinyl and remastered beautifully to CD. Today's recordings are a different breed for sure! |
Learsfool: Thank you for your detailed and informative reply. Truly a scholar and a gentleman. |
raquel841 posts06-06-2008 10:19am
Speakers that will be used for symphonic music need to have enormous headroom to handle the scale and volume of a large orchestra (few speakers are able), and need to be voiced correctly in the mid's and upper-mid's so as not to mess up the sound of strings (few are).
~~~~~~~~ Yes Raquel Mids are everything in classical, speakers must achieve pure fidelity in midrange, (few are) Agree |
davidbigeye28 posts06-06-2008 9:33pm
Hi Shadorn,
Yes, I hear what you are saying. My next pair of speakers will be from the JBL Project line, with thier famous compression drivers and 15" bass units.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 15 inch bass driver? For CM?? Too much for kettle drums. My tech geek has heard JBL's, his assessment **too aggressive* = will take your head off. |
mrtennis3,295 posts06-22-2008 12:44amnot all "classical" music is orchestral. among those musical selections which are written for orchestra, some do have huge swings in spl.
thus, it is possible to listen to many musical selections and achieve realism of timbre, at listening levels which never exceed 85 db.
those reading these posts realize that many panel speakers do a decent job of reproducing classical music, at levels not exceeding 85 db.
as i was listening to a cd yesterday, i was using a radio shack meter to asess the range of spl. as i was listening, my wife asked me to turn down the volume. at the time my radio shack meter registered 80 db.
what's the point ? 85 db is subjectively loud in my opinion. exceeding 85 db is unnecessary in most cases, as far as i am concerned. i usually set my volume at about 70 db. loud passages are in the high 80s.
next time i attend a symphony orchestra concert, i will bring an spl meter to determine loudness. since i sit in the last row of the prchestra, i bet most of the time, the meter reading is less than 90 db. listening louder than that is too loud for me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ mrtennis has a excellent post here, Just perfect. A single driver has all the potential to make all the db level one will ever need for full rich COMPLETE orchestra. See this is what we are after here. Not loudness, HUGE MASSIVE soundtsgae, Not at all. Thats for jazz fans that want that live club feeling What we are after ina speaker for CM, is capturing all the tiny nunaces, subtilities, hidden within a classical recording, Big sound means nothing in classical music. This is where the new tech high sensitivity comes in. Sure its been around since 2010, in development stages. Now its here, since ohhh 2015ish. I just made the discovery 2020. Better late than never. |
jsadurni210 posts06-11-2008 3:01pmWe are all cooking in this audio kitchen, I have tried SS chip amps with horns and it was very good actually, the one I tried (have) is DIY but I guess a more refined amp could do very well, a very close friend has the Avantgarde Duos also and just changed from a class A PP Jadis amp to a Meishu SE Audionote, on his system this change was very good I was with him during the AB comparison stage, both amps there...on my system PP class A tube amp (Leak TL12.1) sounded much much better that AN P4 go figure...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thats pretty good, we are all chefs , at least the ones here who are upgrading, modifying, tweaking, their systems, Experimentation is what this hobby is all about. I am close to adding my 1st ever high tech wide band. My tech friend who builds amp, will loan me his DIY monoblocks Dyanco Mark4 modded with EL34's/12AU7 and one other pre tube , This will face a shootout with my jadis Defy7, upgraded caps to Mundorf's SESGO and new F&T's + new Takman Rey resistors. Along with these 2 amps he will loan me his 250 SET amp. I am curious how each tube performs on the high quality FR driver. With all sorts of music in this shootout, from high quality jazz recordings, to aweful live recordings, like Mahvishnu Orch Live in Central park. The main music will be full symphony orchestra which is the real test of any speakers perfornance. caveat: Speakers must have a sensitivty of 91db/higher. This cut off eliminates alot of famous and very popular xover type designs. And I also note Voxativ has quite a few of its single drivers at 91db. Based on that number, this marks the line in the sand whether a speaker makes the grade to voice my fav genre , classical. . 90db is too low sens, its going to miss too many nuances hidden withina full symphony orchestra. |
chashmal605 posts06-09-2008 9:04amI think you should avoid metal tweeters like B&W style speakers use.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Correct, Dome tweeters are excellent for jazz other genres, Dome tweets will not voice full symphony orchestra. its too small of a coil + sensitivity is too low. 2 liabilities/flaws. . The only speaker I know, other than massive horns, to voice CM full sym orch, are wide band/higher sensitivty speakers. |
ggavetti143 posts06-08-2008 10:21pmDCstep, actually some people believe the right sub can solve the problem, but I never tried it (actually, I tried a Velodyne but had no luck)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subs should not ever be employed for full symphony orchestra. Best musical woofer is the Seas W22 graphene with Mundorf Supreme silver/gold caps. far superior to any sub. Though about the same price as a high quality sub , The caps are expensive. |
dcstep1,518 posts06-09-2008 11:31am06-09-08: Chadeffect said:
"Box speakers are always going to give you problems though, and IMHO a bad place to start if listening to classical music only."
Lot's of us disagree with your opinion here.
Later you mention B&W 801 and 802s somewhat favorably. Is that not a "box speaker"? Anyway, many of us think that floor-standing, three-way speakers are the logical place to start for high quality, highly dynamic, full range sound for classical music reproduction.
People that can't afford the three-ways should consider two-way, stand-mounted mini-monitors, IMHO, and accept the compromise in low frequency response.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sure How can Chad make the claim ~~box style speakers /problems~~ Then go on to suggest the ever popular, if not famous ~~B&W~~ which I associate with none other than Bose, like Bose' bigger brother. Yet Chad is correct, there is not 1 box/xover speaker which holds any interest for voicing full symphony orchestra. I made attempts, but none worked out. Then after spending alot of cash upgrading my Thors, and countless hours of research.. I began ~~Thinking Outside The Box~, pun intended. Ordered some chinese **full range** for test purposes only, Yes , now here were the missing pieces to the puzzle. Wide band/Point Source/Higher sens/Full range, tag it how you wish. This is the ~~Holy Grail~~ I've been desparetely seeking these past years. My tech friend made a comment, to the effect, **Don't be surprised if they fall short on crushing passages when full sym opens up** Can't be any worse that how the Seas Millennium handles symphony orchestra. Box speakers with xovers have a fatguing midrange,although the Millennium was the most accurate and least fatiguing of any tweeter I've heard, , Still at 87 db, its just not offering up the goods whena symphony is in full bloom. Less than 1 inch voice coil, with 100++ instrumentation all trying to get a piece of that miniscule voice coil. For jazz the Millennium is a wonderous marvel. 2 other seas high quality tweets worth considering for jazz, are their newest Cresendo(87db) and their 20 yr old design the Exotic Alnico(94db) I'd go Exotic for the higher sens. But its not made for full orchestra. jazz only. . |
shadorne7,467 posts06-18-2008 2:03pmAnother example, on the subject of compression, in this case "ringing" may rob the midrange of dynamic range Stereophile Review. Ringing also reduces the contrast or sharpness in transients which is why Quad 57's are cherished (with its nice waterfall) for being "fast" and beautifully detailed even if they are limited dynamically.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You see I think this is where tweeters fall apart, whena full orchestra is in full bloom, Schnittke, and such. A dome tweeter is being taxed to the max, and starts ringing and begins shutting down. This is why the new designs in wide band have addressed these issues and are able to voice these massive loads of fq's with a more relaxed and ease in performance. The Quads need power and lack bass, highs rolled off. I believe the newer wide bands have addressed these earlier (Fostex/Lowther) faulty designs, now with superior bass and highs. |
