If the speaker does classical music well it should do rock and jazz just as well, else it has some sort of rather serious flaw. It would only a matter of time before a classical recording would show up that flaw big time (try an original press of side 6 of Das Reingold conducted by Solti on Decca- if a speaker can play that right it will be good on any kind of music made). Trust me on this one- the speaker had better not care too much what flavor of music you listen to! As soon as it does, it is revealing its colorations/deficiencies.
BTW this is the same for all parts of the reproduction chain. |
I've spent years playing bass in orchestras and also recording them. I've also spent years looking for the best classical recordings, like a lot of people on this list.
What I have found is if you really have a good recording, very few speakers will hold up to it, not because of bandwidth alone, or inner detail, but also due to dynamic range.
I like to play the system at the volumes that the recording was made at.
My room is about 21' by 17', with carpets, stuffed furniture and LPs lining the walls. Its reasonably dead. One of the best recordings I have run into is the Soria Series (RCA) recording of the Verdi Requiem (Dies Irae side one). The dynamic range, subtlety, detail, bass impact, natural presentation and the like are matched by few recordings, especially anything recent. In a nutshell, most systems simply cannot play this record- it is simply too demanding! It can literally go from a whisper to so loud that many will be diving for the volume control so as not to damage something.
I find that if you need a transistor amplifier to get the sufficient power to drive a speaker to lifelike levels, it will never sound like real music; at best only like a good stereo (Ho hum). So its tubes all the way for me.
That limits the speakers- tube power is expensive and tricky to get right!
The Classic Audio Reproductions T-1 or T-3 is the best I have seen. They are efficient- 97 db, easy to drive (16 ohms), full bandwidth (20Hz-45KHz), easy to set up (6" from the rear wall in my room), image easily, detailed enough to match the best of ESLs and cone systems, hard to fault really.
I can play them to any level I want and not strain the amps. Lots of local artists wind up bringing test recordings over to see if anything that they are working on needs tweaking. They are quite revealing.
This is the only speaker that so far has allowed me to play my most demanding LPs (CDs have never proven as demanding BTW- they just don't have the impact!). Verdi Requiem, not a problem. Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' (original German white label Vertigo pressing) no worries (most systems haven't a hope of playing *that one* at anything near a normal volume BTW). Wagner's 'Das Reingold' on Decca with Solti conducting- easy. 'The Wand of Youth' on EMI-piece of cake. Schwartzkopf singing the Four Last Songs of Strauss on EMI- fabulous! These are awesome recordings, the sort of thing that if they are done right make you shiver- or cry.
Most speakers that have the resolution and bandwidth to really do the job usually lack the ability to also be easy to drive. The CAR is the first (and after 10 year still the only) that I have seen that can do everything right in the same place at the same time.
BTW- they are great with rock, jazz and anything else you can dig up too. |
Shadorne is right about 'damping', and in fact its more profound then that- once damping factor exceeds about 20:1 or so, there is no improvement gained. 'Damping factor' is a bit of a misnomer, as it assumes more about the load being inductive than it being an electromechanical device which is powered by the amplifier to any excursion, complete with its own suspension. In the case mentioned, its likely that its not a damping factor issue at all, more likely that there is a problem with the floor, resonance in the front end or something like that. IOW, 'damping factor' is the complex explanation where there are also a number of simpler explanations. Dcstep, I appreciate that you have not found the right tube amp and so you have had to look at transistors. That does not say however that tubes cannot do the job- even for you- all it does say is that you've not seen that yet. What is important to get here is that the match between the amp and the speaker is critical. The idea that you go with a certain speaker and then find an amp for it is common, but weak. Here's why: http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.htmlIf you use a tube amp with the wrong kind of speaker, you will never hear what that tube amp can do. In the case of the CARs, they are designed for tube amps and if you put a transistor amp on them you won't hear what the speaker will do. I had this pointed out to me in spades when a solid state competitor showed at T.H.E. Show 2 doors down from me with the exact same CARs in his room. Any time a Voltage paradigm device is used with a Power paradigm device, you will get a tonal anomaly. This is not a conversation about tubes vs transistors BTW. That's just the tip of the iceberg. |
Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior.
Of course I do believe in what I am doing. Making tube amps for a living is not the easiest way to make a buck- I don't do this for the money, I do it because I like it.
I also am convinced that someday it will be possible to do as well with solid state what I am able to do with tubes. The access to this is understanding the rules of human hearing and creating a solid state amplifier that obeys those rules. Right now there might one or two solid state amplifiers that are really successful with that. Both of them have limited power, the biggest being the Ridley Audio amp which makes 100 watts.
So- making really musical power is hard. So if you want to reproduce classical, which has the widest dynamic range of any musical form (generally speaking), you need a speaker that will be easy to drive. 20db BTW is a 100:1 difference in power.
The CAR is all of that and with a 60 watt amp you will not need a subwoofer and in most rooms you will not be able to clip the amp either. Plus it is as revealing as anything out there including the best ESLs, so if anyone wonders why they should care? -that's why. I own them but I don't sell them.
If your speaker is only 90 db, you will not be able to reproduce an orchestra at life-like levels. A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db. Most people are happy with 95db; imagine not ever having to think about even coming close to clipping the amp. Taking advantage of tubes' softer clipping is not a good idea in audio, although that works great for electric guitars!
I don't think tube vs transistor discussions are useful because I have come to understand that the conversation is never about that. Take a look again at the link that Duke and I posted earlier, yes its on my website, no, its not actually some sort of marketing thing, its simply the way audio has turned out. Astute readers will see that it generates an access to making a solid state amp that conforms to the rules of human hearing as well as tubes; the discussion of tubes/transistors is the same as objectivist/subjectivist.
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Dcstep, your goals and mine look identical on paper. We are thinking the same way there, but went about it differently. I use tubes *because* I can get them to be more neutral, detailed and relaxed; I'm not looking for coloration. On my speakers, you can't get most transistor amps to make good bass, and its easy to demonstrate how profound that difference is (my amps are full power to 1 Hz, unusual in a tube amp).
Like you, I trust my ears first :)
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The 115db peaks of the orchestra would be in the first 10 rows or so if you are in the center. So this is from the listening position.
Although this thread is about speakers, the match between the amp and the speaker is paramount. You do have to pay attention to the intention of the speaker designer to know what kind of amp is going to work with the speaker. Its not always intuitive! For example, horns are traditionally in the realm of tubes, but when I started seeing how the newer Avangarde crossovers were designed, it was obvious to me long before I found out that the speakers were intended for transistors only. In the case of the Trios, there is no tube amp that will sound really right on the speaker, solely on account of the impedance curve.
BTW, Nelson Pass has a good article, published about 2 1/2 years ago in Audio Express, about how full range drivers interact with 'current source' (high impedance, usually tube) amplifiers. He works with solid state of course, and began building high impedance 'current source' amplifiers. The First Watt amps are an example of that.
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Hi Dave, We will be at RMAF. Bring your classical torture tracks! Our room is very large, but I am hoping we will be able to take advantage of that by having a soundstage as wide as an actual stage. A nice big soundstage where the musicians seem life size instead of miniature is always nice... |
I use the Rite of Spring that was recorded by Kenneth Wilkenson for the RCA/Reader's Digest's box set 'Music of the World's Great Composers. It is a spirited performance and the sonics are spectacular but natural. I've often demoed it at shows.
For quite a bit less than the ATCs, I think one would do better with a set of speakers from Audiokinesis. We had a set in recently and they were spectacular and well as reasonably priced. |
One recording that seems to have nearly everything is Das Reingold on Decca, conducted by Solti. If you have an original pressing, side 6 is nothing short of spectacular- nearly everything a stereo could be evaluated on: delicacy, bandwidth, impact, dynamic range, ability to hold together at volume, depth, soundstage width, detail, human voices, singularly and together, all ranges... its all there.
This recording puts most speaker/amp combinations right flat on their face nearly right away, if you are unwilling to change the volume as it plays. This is where the efficiency of the speaker, plus its ability to play high spls at the same time (BTW the two are quite different!) can play such a dramatic role. |
Acoustat6, I'm unwilling to dive for the volume control once I have established the right volume level otherwise. With most systems, Das Reingold forces you to otherwise keep the volume at a level that is unrealistically low.
Shadorne's comments about compression are right on. FWIW, Classic Audio Reproductions has been using and are developing field coil drivers (at the recent AudioKarma show they demo'd the speaker with FC woofers and midrange).
Otherwise, one of the advantages of Alnico is that fact that the magnetic structure can be focused on the gap; saturation is easy enough and one of the measures of the designer's mettle is 'is it still saturated at 105 or 110db?' With heating and the like, that's a bit of a trick!
BTW in an average room where you are 8-10 feet from the speaker, a speaker with 89 db 1watt/1meter efficiency could need 250 to 500 watts to make 110db (how dead the room is will play a role too so this power requirement could be a lot higher, OTOH a lively room may well prevent one from being able to hit lifelike peaks without discomfort). You really don't want the amp to be clipping at it highest volume, so its easy to see how hard it is to work with inefficient speakers. If you happen to prefer tubes, 200 watts is a practical upper limit before the term 'gold-plated decibels' really starts to hit home!
Once you have heard how important this is, it gets hard to take inefficiency seriously. |
MrT, I think its all about loudness cues. The orchestra, being pure, has the least of all and so one can enjoy it being loud a lot easier than one can a stereo, which will have more loudness cues due distortion. Occasionally enough that others might object!
Once rid of artificial loudness cues, the normal urge is to turn up the volume. I would be very interested to find out what sound pressure levels you experience in your hall and with what music. I have measured 105db peaks at the 15th row. The music was Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis. |
When I recorded Canto General, I made sure that we had the best bass drum in the Twin Cities. The score calls for nearly 40 different percussion instruments and a 60-voice choir.
The piece is spectacular, very passionate, with hints of Carl Orff. We recorded it without compression and we were at the limits of what the media could do for dynamic range.
Most people have no idea how loud an orchestra can play because there are no artificial harmonic artifacts. But having been there when it was recorded, I find it crucial to have as much efficiency as possible so long as bandwidth and resolution are not compromised. This allows the home system to play without loudness artifact also. |
Guidocorona and Mapman, Mikas Theodorakis was there to conduct, and said that in over 200 performances worldwide, it was the best sound that he had heard. So I think we did OK on the production and recording side. It is available on CD and I just recently found a few more sealed LPs (made from the analog master tapes), which we had thought had sold out 15 years ago!
It is a challenging piece to reproduce so I often have it at shows as a demo. I've seen a lot of speakers and amps fall flat on their collective faces trying to reproduce it. |
