I am now totally off B&W speakers, because I kept destroying them! I had the 803D. David, If you like to drive speakers loud and particuarly realistic dynamics/spl then this is generally what happens. Go horns or pro speakers would be my suggestion. Consumer designs generally are never required nor do they claim to reproduce realistic music levels so it is unfair to push them so hard. |
If the speaker can stand up to those sources without stressing, without distorting, without sounding stuffy or wooly, and deliver the full dynamics, transients and bandwidth, it'll be a very special speaker. The best ones I've heard for this have always been active. I've heard some passives come close, but to really deliver, actives have a decisive edge. The above post about active speakers is of course correct, but my experience is that most active speakers or powered studio monitors lack the finesse of audiophile speakers Agree fully. You want piano (a percussive instrument) then I have not heard better than with actives. You want full orchestra - same answer. You want big band - same answer. You want full justice to percussion - same answer. However if you listen to acoustic, modern pop or rock (generally not much dynamic range left when it leaves the mastering studio) then there are many good choices often with more warmth and finesse - and which won't show up every wart on a recording. |
What are good models and manufacturer's for actives? Genelec 8050A - you may find these at your local music or guitar shop - they will probably be close to the best of the active near fields mini-monitors you can audition at a pro music store (where they sell musical instruments an studio gear)- try to listen and see if you like them - I think they are better than Mackie's - if you do then there are a few others I would add which are difficult to find for an audition and even more expensive and will essentially play louder for far-field listening - so it is probably best if you check these Genelec's out first and see if it up your street. (You may not like the neutral sound -many don't) What are the downside to actives and why do are there so few active's as opposed to passives? This has been discussed on other threads but basically you are limited for "tweaking" through choice of your own amp - especially important to tube lovers - as you won't find a tube in an active speaker (due to microphonics of tubes) |
MC402 appears to have a damping factor of 40. This may be too low for Vienna speakers. worth listening too. . . but I suspect result may be a little woolly. G. ...but 40 is fairly high enough (I mean not a lot of difference between 40 and 400 damping factor, IMHO) - are the Vienna's generally an underdamped speaker design? |
Lighter materials are inherently faster and more re-active Inuitively it would seem that way. However materials need to be rigid as well. In order to make something light and rigid at the same time you end up with something that "rings like a bell" - i.e. your speakers make their own music which is applied over top of the signal that they are fed. Often a damped design such as a paper cone or fabric dome tweeter can provide just enough rigidity to be fast(especially when properly supported through appropriate voice coil sizing and cone shape). The advantage of pulp paper and doped fabrics is that they are internally damped and dissipate the "ringing" rapidly...this will make them sound even faster than rigid marterials as you get that sharp transient and nothing more. A less rigid damped paper woofer or woven fabric cone tends to require a larger diameter voice coil to give it better support. In the case of a fabric tweeter the 25 mm voice coil is sufficient as it couples to the edge of the dome but larger diameter voice coils get expensive in order to achieve a decent Xmax. Rigid lightweight drivers allow the use a small diameter voice coil on a large woofer with the principle advantage of lower cost, high efficiency, greater bandwidth but inevitably some ringing issues to contend with. |
Shadorne, from my minor experience. . . JRDG 7M delivering max 170A peak ad damping factor of 170 is borderline for controlling bass drivers of Vienna Mahlers. At 1000, JRDG 501s and 312 seem just about right. . . Nuforce at 4000 is perhaps overdampening them. My point is that you can't control them any further than having an amp with 0 output impedance (although you can go negative but that is another story). Damping of 4 is equivalent to output impedance of 2 Ohms whilst 40 is equivalent to 0.2 ohms whilst 400 is equivalent to 0.02 whilst 4000 damping is like 0.002....so the difference is very small as all the last three are basically pretty much all a short. So the natural mechanical/electrical damping of the voice coil and mechanical suspension + air suspension will really begin to dominate as you go above 40 damping from the amp. However, what you observed means it still has an audible effect which suggests the speaker design is probably underdamped. |
I think it's a mistake to plan on clipping, even if it's mostly 2d harmonic. An amp that's clipping a your listening levels likely has very high distortion, particularly in the bass and highs. This should be avoided if you want accurate musical presentation. I agree with you Dave...but one has to respect that many people don't want an accurate presentation - they prefer even order harmonic distortion from soft clipping. I think of the excellent Sonic Frontiers manual about "A taste of Tubes"....that is what it is about....adding your own seasoning to your favorite tracks. Judicious use of the volume control allows a user to control the amount of soft clipping to achieve a desired effect....it is a form of audio compression similar to what is done in studios. |
Narrowing the field a little. Not interested in horns, electrostats, personal (vs established company) designs etc. Speaker must sound good for both 105 db orchestral and 70 db chamber. David, Ok - let me see - no horn, no panels, no boutique designs. If you mean 105 db SPL continuous then I'd recommend that you need at least an ATC SCM 50ASL (like Gordon Holt who likes classical) and possibly a JL F113 sub or two depending on room size and placement - IMHO. Why? Because if you are listening at 105 db SPL (and sitting a typical 2 meters back) then this is 111 db SPL continuous sound and you will also need plenty of headroom (or else it will sound strained and dull with most non pro dynamic speakers and you ideally want an effortless sound). If you have a bigger room and sit a little further back then you probably need an SCM100 or bigger, as well as the sub(s). The 3 inch midrange in the SCM50 is on the right while the bigger 3" dome for the larger SCM100 to SCM300 range is on the left. Why a photo? because a picture is worth a thousand words - this 3 inch driver has a bigger magnet and bigger diameter voice coil than you see on 99% of all woofers and subwoofers...there is a reason for this and at 105 db SPL at the listening position you will hear that reason (without a horn you will definitely need a design with big motors). It has a wide "waveguide" to control dispersion (this is not a horn). An extremely dynamic pro driver three way like ATC or PMC can certainly handle your needs without the least hint of strain and also play at 70 db with chamber music with no problem with the same accuracy and balance. This is a key reason these speakers are popular in mix/mastering. Note that your ears will inevitably suffer the usual Fletcher Munson loss of hearing sensitivity to bass frequencies at low levels - so it will not sound quite the same but it will not be the speaker fault - just use some loudness or bass tone control if you want a fuller sound at very low levels. Usually the mastering engineers take care of this for you - rock and Mahler sould be mixed thin in the bass so it sounds best real loud (as it is when heard live) - the opposite is done for chamber music. FWIW - I don't hear significant differences in IC's, cables or most CD players - perhaps I have tin ears from listening too loudly! Good luck and happy listening - just don't play it too loudly for too long as it is not good for your hearing. |
A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db Agreed and distortion is the primary reason why it sounds oppresive on most systems. My experience is they just sound dull and boomy and unpleasant - so you turn it down. Since distortion is perceived as loudness most systems will sound perceptively way too loud long before they reach realistic sound levels/dynamics. I think Dgad is on the right track to getting those 115 db SPL peaks or "Barks" as someone called it. Whatever he chooses it will almost certainly require large bass woofers (possibly even a multitude of 12" + bad boys), absolutely massive cabinets and coupled with either a compression horn mid/mid bass or an extremely high ouput dynamic midrange driver (or a pair of them on each speaker). And all using pro type drivers that dissipate the heat rapidly and compress only 1 or 2 db rather than the usual 6 db or more that you get from Scan drivers... Have Fun! |
105dB continuous at the listening seat is "crazy loud". I agree and there are few non horn speaker designs that can achieve this cleanly at two or more meters. I would not recommend listening at these levels and agree that 95 db spl is plenty loud already. Of course if the speaker can handle it then you have plenty of headroom for those occasional highly dynamic drum recordings. |
Also how is the power consumption for these units - i.e. can you run them off the same 15 amp circuit w/o any problem. Power consumption is low - no more than four amps for the pair - Since the speaker and amp are matched they can design them with momentary gain reduction so you don't get crazy things happening if you overdrive them (like a fuse tripping). Genelec, PMC, and ATC active three ways all play loud with tremendous dynamics/punchy sound and all have a following. It is really a personal thing so I could not guess which you will prefer - for example PMC has more bass whilst ATC is more forward in the mids - take your pick. At this level of investment a trip is definitely worthwhile to hear at least two of the three....after all you may not even like the forward punchy sound of these actives (fatiguing some would call it) ...although I grant you that Genelec 8040 appears to have garnered your interest and they are fairly neutral - but there is a huge step up from these small monitors to a bigger three way active - if you have not heard it then play Sheffield Labs drum track loudly at your first chance of a demo and you will surely be gobsmacked. |
When you've all the strings going, the brass playing at it's most brilliant and the percussion pounding away, many systems lose track of the character of each instrument and instead present a homogenized, loud, stressful mess. That would be typical midrange compression (heat and non-linearities at high excursions). Soundstage is the first reviewer to start measuring compression. Since 2006, they include a chart comparing output at 70 db SPL with output at 90 db SPL and higher levels. The difference is thermal compression - so you can see Watt Puppy 8's tweeter starting to compress at 95 db SPL on Chart 4. Whilst Revel F12 seems pretty good at 95 db SPL but starts to look dodgy at an albeit very impressive (for a consumer speaker) 100 db SPL (although a glance at Chart 3 further up shows that distortion is starting to look scary at 95 db SPL)! Soundstage state "Very few speakers can be tested at 100dB without damage"....so if you were wondering where is that all important 10 db SPL headroom...it ain't there in most designs playing at 90 db SPL (at listening position), as you are already stressing the speaker. This paper explains venting and the importance of voice coil diameter in a driver and the choice of magnet. The JBL 2225H and EVX 150 with 4 inch voice coil takes 20 seconds to compress whereas a small 3 inch voice coil compresses within seconds. (Note that some subwoofers and many consumer woofers use a mere 2 INCH Voice coil or less - and these get hot really quickly and have trouble to get rid of heat) The highly respected TAD driver with 3 inch Voice coil uses Alnico which loses magnet strength with heat and also compresses within seconds. There is so much more to speakers than veneer/cabinetry. Almost nobody asks the salesman about the woofer voice coil size but, as it turns out, it is a highly relevant question that will govern how the speaker performs. BTW - if you get 3 or more db of compression then you can bet that the whole crossover design is completely inappropriate at this playback level as the voice coil resistance has probably more than doubled in the drivers. What does it sound like - "a homogenized, loud, stressful mess." as Dave so eloquently put it! |
I hope the last post I made above was at least useful to one or two people or perhaps it was another case of my misguided efforts to explain something that is largely falling on "deaf ears". They say "ignorance is bliss" and it may be so for the many people with non pro drivers. A friend of mine once told me "I'd really rather not know why my speaker sounds awful. Besides, I prefer to think that I can compensate for things through spending more on a warmer/incredibly powerful amp, source and better cables..." I have not heard Duke's speakers but if his design philosophy and choice of drivers is any indication then they are definitely worth investigating, as Atmasphere suggested. Sadly however, I suspect this particular area of system performance will remain fundamentally one of "ignorance is bliss". The majority of speaker manufacturers are forced to use cheap mass produced drivers to compete in a tough market with hard to beat price points - besides it is much more important what the drive looks like on the outside than the size of the motor - so I don't think you'll hear much about this topic except on DIY forums and in pro audio. |
Duke, Thanks - I figured that might be the case - the dirty rotten cheats ;-) (all is fair in marketing!) It was however hard to find links to solid examples that show that compression really is a big issue. Perhaps I chose the wrong example. It would be great if there were more examples about this poorly understood issue but I don't think speaker manufacturers like to raise these issues too often. I understand that if you sell several drivers - some pro and some lower cost then it might be at cross purposes to emphasize how your lower cost drivers might be compressing quite severely. (You just killed sales on your most popular mass produced item in order to try to sell a very few high priced items!!!) |
I'm only wondering how much of a real world factor it is with high quality, high fidelity speakers. On compressed pop/rock and especially the more modern stuff on CD; Green Day/Red Hot Chilli's/Metallica/Artic Monkeys/Kooks/most remasters and thousands of others - not an issue at all - as the music is already compressed crap anyway!!! On old school dynamic recordings - classical, Mahler, Shostakovich or great jazz recordings of big band and Sheffield Labs/Chesky/XRCD type stuff it is a HUGE issue. The life of the music is robbed by compression. After a few seconds at the start of the track you are already hearing compression. Remember at 87 db if you have a large room then your speakers may be at an average of 95 db - already the "average" music at that level is starting to be compressed - so naturally the peaks or what immediately follows them will be even more compressed and worse even "modulated" by the rapid cooling and heating of the voice coil from percussion elements. This is why piano rarely sounds realistic and often sounds like a recording. Analogy: Think of the voice coil as being like the thin resitive wire in a light bulb...how fast does that get hot - what do you think the heat and momentarily increased resistance does to the transient behaviour and timbre of sounds - well it modifes it significantly!! It is easy to hear - the first few seconds of a loud passage will sound crisp detailed and clear and then it will rapidly start to sound dull. For example Michael Jackson Bille Jean - the opening will be clear and punchy and crystal clear (like a shotgun) and then it will soon become dull and loose its edge on most speakers. |
I DO sit near-field due to my room shape and the furniture layout Absolutely not a problem then. This is why consumer speakers tend to go with the lower cost drivers (pro drivers with large voice coils sound no better at low volumes than consumer type drivers, IMHO). As you move to a near field position compression is much less of a problem because every time you half the distance to teh speaker you gain 6 db - so you get back all that headroom that you only lose if the speaker is driven too hard. You probably need to be at least 8 feet or more back and to be listening loud (at realistic levels) to start to run into this issue in a significant way on most floorstanders. I believe this is often the situation in setups with floorstanders. I believe this is one of the principle reasons you find things sound "messy" with some demos you have heard of other speakers with full orchestra classical and big band.( Xmax limitations might be the other issue especially on designs with long coils in short gap where the linear operating region is often not as good as specifications might suggest - some drivers publish VC physical gap geometry calculated Xmax as oppposed to the more stringent 10% linear tolerance) |
Another example, on the subject of compression, in this case "ringing" may rob the midrange of dynamic range Stereophile Review. Ringing also reduces the contrast or sharpness in transients which is why Quad 57's are cherished (with its nice waterfall) for being "fast" and beautifully detailed even if they are limited dynamically. |
Once rid of artificial loudness cues, the normal urge is to turn up the volume. Absolutely! Distortion is what makes 99% of systems sound extremely loud when they are not. Either distortion from the system itself or distortion on the recording itself (often from compression which is necessary because most music is heard on crap systems). An acoustic drum set can hit 115 db SPL if you stand close to it - so can a grand piano and a trumpet...sure it takes effort to play that loud and it will rarely last more than a few seconds or the performer will be quickly exhausted and so will the listener (or you are at a Metallica concert which is a marathon of loudness which the only the young may endure). The reality is that to convey the entire musical performance and get those final crashing crescendos and "accents" to the music then you really do need something that can do a whole lot louder than 85 db spl max and even 100 db SPL is severely limiting in many instances (if a realistic reproduction is desired). Imagine you are in a jazz club and you happen to be standing in front of Miles Davis... when he lets it rip we are talking about 140 db SPL at four feet (in the direction he points that trumpet)...for sure at 20 feet it will be a lot less maybe only 110 db SPL as he would bounce the sound off the ceiling (he is entertaining you and not trying to deafen you). The 100 db SPL maximum that most consumer dynamic speakers will achieve (if lucky) at the typical listening position is missing a whopping 20 db of dynamic range! This is some 30% of useful dynamic range (above the noise floor) that just ain't there. This shortcoming (be it most speakers or that over compressed modern pop CD) is the "elephant on the table" that hardly anybody dares talk about anymore because horns have been largely displaced from consumer markets and nobody likes to bring it up (especially reviewers) |
So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range. I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position ). Even the revered JL F113 sub can barely cut it - which is why some people have opted for two of them! However bass response is not the whole issue - midrange and tweeter compression and amp clipping from non-horn designs is quite standard at these levels - I mean standard - I mean on 99% of audiophile systems. Yes indeed - talk of an "elephant" is no exaggeration. Soundstage show a test measurement of a Watt Puppy 8 tweeter starting to compress at 95 db SPL at 2 meters! Far from disappointing - this is actually very good but quite typical. Soundstage state in their description of loudspeaker testing that they don't typically test speakers at higher levels such as 100 db SPL because most of them would be damaged at this level -they are being truthful. Sure looks like an elephant to me -when you clearly and correctly state above that a speaker shoudl EASILY reach 105 to 110 db SPL at the listening position and yet Soundstage say this would damage most speakers! I make no exaggeration. I suspect that many Klipsch and other large horn speaker owners know what I am speaking of when they describe the "live" sound of horns - the detail - the clarity - the effortless dynamics. These speakers sound live because many of these systems can actually retain the dynamic transients of real instruments cleanly up to 110 db spl. Unfortunately ubiquitous sound from car stereos, restaurants, boomboxes and radios with typical compressed audio CD's from recording/mastering studios (which make their audio mostly for these mediums rather than horn speaker systems) have lulled most people into being blissfully happy with conventional dynamic speakers...totally unaware that a problem even exists. Concerns/efforts are directed towards source and preamp and other issues that actually pale in comparison to the loss of dynamic range from typical speaker compression/distortion. Many people chase massive monoblock amplifiers to try to compensate for what is really a speaker design limitation. To me this is one of the principle reasons that most people will agree that most audio playback sounds nothing like the real live thing. Some horn users know differently...all IMHO of course. I respect that you and many others will disagree. I could not expect anything less, understandably, 99% of speaker owners with conventional dynamic consumer type speakers (the type that would get damaged at 100 db SPL) will deny there is an "elephant on the table". |
Dave, Sure most dynamic speakers can probably achieve 105 db SPL peaks at 7 feet that with 1000 watts behind them. The issue is how clean and uncompressed are those peaks. This was my point about giving a link to what many audiophiles regard as a relatively dynamic speaker with good slam compared to others - the Watt Puppy 8's are certainly no slouch when it comes to dynamics. No doubt they too can easily reach 105 db SPL peaks when driven by 1000 watts. However, the question is how much compression must be endured to achieve this? As Ralph has pointed out 1000 watts is all very well but that is a lot of heat (since more than 97% becomes heat) and heat means thermal compression. (Ok for a subwoofer with massive 4 inch voice coil perhaps - but that tweeter and midrange can only take so much. Lower impedance drivers just mean that more current flows through the coils and create even more heat) So I must ask what use is it to achieve the 105 db SPL peak if in reality it should have been 111 db SPL because the speaker voice coils are running hotter than a toaster oven - something to consider! I don't think many people know about this - so you would not be alone in believeing that 105 db SPL is so "easily" achieved by most speakers at the listening position - when it is not. It is obscure and speaker manufactuers and driver manufacturers and reviewers do not appear to want to educate us about this issue. Several manufacturers add a second midrange driver on larger dynamic models for a good reason - it gets them an extra 3 db before compression hits - very little benefit in reality - and of course it includes a heavy compromise due to the lobbing effects from driver interference - but the alternative is to design drivers that play louder without compression - of which you can probably only sell a few of - so you can see which is easier ...just double up on the popular drivers also used in the lower models (and bought in large quantities) to get a modest 3 db gain in dynamics for your highest end model. They aren't likely to tell you that the added driver is largely to eek out an extra 3 db SPL, as all the marketing will speak to the beautifully "controlled vertical dispersion"... |
I don't think the peaks are lasting long enough to lead to significant compression when listening to actual music in my system. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Especially those with dynamic speakers. I think you bring up some very good points on thermal compression, such as the lengths of the peaks. For sure some music will be more forgiving than others. Have you considered though that driver non-linearities above Xmax are another form of compression (as the voice coil travels further outside the linear region of the magnetic field with large cone excursion). Again horns tend to have an advantage there too. A demo at RMAF is a great idea - if they will allow you to play that loud. Sheffield Labs Drum track is a good stress test. |
