I'm only wondering how much of a real world factor it is with high quality, high fidelity speakers. On compressed pop/rock and especially the more modern stuff on CD; Green Day/Red Hot Chilli's/Metallica/Artic Monkeys/Kooks/most remasters and thousands of others - not an issue at all - as the music is already compressed crap anyway!!! On old school dynamic recordings - classical, Mahler, Shostakovich or great jazz recordings of big band and Sheffield Labs/Chesky/XRCD type stuff it is a HUGE issue. The life of the music is robbed by compression. After a few seconds at the start of the track you are already hearing compression. Remember at 87 db if you have a large room then your speakers may be at an average of 95 db - already the "average" music at that level is starting to be compressed - so naturally the peaks or what immediately follows them will be even more compressed and worse even "modulated" by the rapid cooling and heating of the voice coil from percussion elements. This is why piano rarely sounds realistic and often sounds like a recording. Analogy: Think of the voice coil as being like the thin resitive wire in a light bulb...how fast does that get hot - what do you think the heat and momentarily increased resistance does to the transient behaviour and timbre of sounds - well it modifes it significantly!! It is easy to hear - the first few seconds of a loud passage will sound crisp detailed and clear and then it will rapidly start to sound dull. For example Michael Jackson Bille Jean - the opening will be clear and punchy and crystal clear (like a shotgun) and then it will soon become dull and loose its edge on most speakers. |
Hi Atmasphere, you said, "This recording puts most speaker/amp combinations right flat on their face nearly right away, if you are unwilling to change the volume as it plays.'
Could you explaine to me what you mean by this. Are you saying you need to turn up/down the volume for this recording due to its dynamics within the recording?
One volume for all!
Bob |
Shadorne, thanks for you links and comments. I read it and just didn't think a further comment was needed. Now you've prompted me to ask:
How long is the typical musical peak? If I'm listening at 87dB on average and I have peaks of 105dB, which I have observed and note seem appropriate for the music, if it takes a few seconds for compression to begin, will I experience it often, if ever, in music listening???
BTW, I play electric guitar, so I've actually purposely compressed guitar alnico drivers to get a certain tone quality only available from a compressed speaker (or a good speaker emulator). So, I understand the concept pretty clearly. I'm only wondering how much of a real world factor it is with high quality, high fidelity speakers.
Also, the compression shown on the graphs was actually very small in comparison to the in-room EQ variations of the speakers shown. I'm wondering how much we'll hear those fractional dB losses when taken with all the other interactions.
Don't take this as anti-horn. I plan to investigate Audiokenesis at RMAF, as well as other high efficiency speaker designs. I'm just trying to understand some of the real world implications.
Dave |
Harbeth C7ESIII or the Super HL5 |
I hope the last post I made above was at least useful to one or two people or perhaps it was another case of my misguided efforts to explain something that is largely falling on "deaf ears".
They say "ignorance is bliss" and it may be so for the many people with non pro drivers.
A friend of mine once told me "I'd really rather not know why my speaker sounds awful. Besides, I prefer to think that I can compensate for things through spending more on a warmer/incredibly powerful amp, source and better cables..."
I have not heard Duke's speakers but if his design philosophy and choice of drivers is any indication then they are definitely worth investigating, as Atmasphere suggested.
Sadly however, I suspect this particular area of system performance will remain fundamentally one of "ignorance is bliss". The majority of speaker manufacturers are forced to use cheap mass produced drivers to compete in a tough market with hard to beat price points - besides it is much more important what the drive looks like on the outside than the size of the motor - so I don't think you'll hear much about this topic except on DIY forums and in pro audio. |
When you've all the strings going, the brass playing at it's most brilliant and the percussion pounding away, many systems lose track of the character of each instrument and instead present a homogenized, loud, stressful mess. That would be typical midrange compression (heat and non-linearities at high excursions). Soundstage is the first reviewer to start measuring compression. Since 2006, they include a chart comparing output at 70 db SPL with output at 90 db SPL and higher levels. The difference is thermal compression - so you can see Watt Puppy 8's tweeter starting to compress at 95 db SPL on Chart 4. Whilst Revel F12 seems pretty good at 95 db SPL but starts to look dodgy at an albeit very impressive (for a consumer speaker) 100 db SPL (although a glance at Chart 3 further up shows that distortion is starting to look scary at 95 db SPL)! Soundstage state "Very few speakers can be tested at 100dB without damage"....so if you were wondering where is that all important 10 db SPL headroom...it ain't there in most designs playing at 90 db SPL (at listening position), as you are already stressing the speaker. This paper explains venting and the importance of voice coil diameter in a driver and the choice of magnet. The JBL 2225H and EVX 150 with 4 inch voice coil takes 20 seconds to compress whereas a small 3 inch voice coil compresses within seconds. (Note that some subwoofers and many consumer woofers use a mere 2 INCH Voice coil or less - and these get hot really quickly and have trouble to get rid of heat) The highly respected TAD driver with 3 inch Voice coil uses Alnico which loses magnet strength with heat and also compresses within seconds. There is so much more to speakers than veneer/cabinetry. Almost nobody asks the salesman about the woofer voice coil size but, as it turns out, it is a highly relevant question that will govern how the speaker performs. BTW - if you get 3 or more db of compression then you can bet that the whole crossover design is completely inappropriate at this playback level as the voice coil resistance has probably more than doubled in the drivers. What does it sound like - "a homogenized, loud, stressful mess." as Dave so eloquently put it! |
One recording that seems to have nearly everything is Das Reingold on Decca, conducted by Solti. If you have an original pressing, side 6 is nothing short of spectacular- nearly everything a stereo could be evaluated on: delicacy, bandwidth, impact, dynamic range, ability to hold together at volume, depth, soundstage width, detail, human voices, singularly and together, all ranges... its all there.
This recording puts most speaker/amp combinations right flat on their face nearly right away, if you are unwilling to change the volume as it plays. This is where the efficiency of the speaker, plus its ability to play high spls at the same time (BTW the two are quite different!) can play such a dramatic role. |
I like to test with a variety of music, but complex classical is the hardest thing I've found for most systems. When you've all the strings going, the brass playing at it's most brilliant and the percussion pounding away, many systems lose track of the character of each instrument and instead present a homogenized, loud, stressful mess. It's amazing how many things can be going on at once and yet a good system allows you to track each element.
I start easy, usually with female vocal and then trumpet, listening for timbre and the richness of the harmonics. Next I've got a few pieces of pop with synth and othewise very low bass that puts off a few speakers. Big, brilliant big band is next and finally a really bombastic classical piece. Cleanse the ears with a soft vocal or massed strings.
Dave |
I tend to steer clear of using classical music to evaluate as a system busting tool, classical cd's are usually very well recorded and all are extremely listenable. For me its better to use cd's that are a bit edgy with jangly guitars and lots of splashing cymbals'. Then again massed strings or massed voices are usually good enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Happy listening all!
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I use the Rite of Spring that was recorded by Kenneth Wilkenson for the RCA/Reader's Digest's box set 'Music of the World's Great Composers. It is a spirited performance and the sonics are spectacular but natural. I've often demoed it at shows.
For quite a bit less than the ATCs, I think one would do better with a set of speakers from Audiokinesis. We had a set in recently and they were spectacular and well as reasonably priced. |
Ozawa's Rite (with the CSO no less -- no my friend I'm not seeking out CSO releases to torture you with) is well reviewed and out on XRCD.
Dave |
Hi Dave, if there were a relatively recent -- or well remastered -- Boulez performance, that may be the ticket to the Rite Of Spring. . . just stay away from Igor Stravinsky's very own performance,or Monteaux. |
Also how is the power consumption for these units - i.e. can you run them off the same 15 amp circuit w/o any problem. Power consumption is low - no more than four amps for the pair - Since the speaker and amp are matched they can design them with momentary gain reduction so you don't get crazy things happening if you overdrive them (like a fuse tripping). Genelec, PMC, and ATC active three ways all play loud with tremendous dynamics/punchy sound and all have a following. It is really a personal thing so I could not guess which you will prefer - for example PMC has more bass whilst ATC is more forward in the mids - take your pick. At this level of investment a trip is definitely worthwhile to hear at least two of the three....after all you may not even like the forward punchy sound of these actives (fatiguing some would call it) ...although I grant you that Genelec 8040 appears to have garnered your interest and they are fairly neutral - but there is a huge step up from these small monitors to a bigger three way active - if you have not heard it then play Sheffield Labs drum track loudly at your first chance of a demo and you will surely be gobsmacked. |
I need to look for a new Rite of Spring, Guido. Sady my only one on hand is early Telarc by virtue of it being vinyl, it said encapsulates the worst of digititus for all eternity. (I think it was Atlanta in the late 1970s, not the greatest). No rescue by upsampling is possible given its conversion to analog. Strange irony if you ask me.
MTT's Mahler has me thinking that I should look further into his work for modern, well recorded options with high performance potential.
Dave |
105dB continuous at the listening seat is "crazy loud". I agree and there are few non horn speaker designs that can achieve this cleanly at two or more meters. I would not recommend listening at these levels and agree that 95 db spl is plenty loud already. Of course if the speaker can handle it then you have plenty of headroom for those occasional highly dynamic drum recordings. |
Actually, the Dvorak 9th with Bernstein is a pretty interesting recording. . . in some cases, it can soun. . . even sort of swampy. . . yet it can also highlight the capability of a component to dig into the information and bring music and venue into the reproduction. . . remember my recent observations on Ref 3 and Capri with this particular track? |
well, yes, to some extent at least they are '[polite' selections. . . but, try to listen to Larah St. John. . . she is not a 'very polite' girl. . . word dyonisiac I should say comes to mind in the sheer emotive intensity of her playing. Yet, in most cases, I am much more interested in the low level detail than anything else.
Good suggestion about Michael Tilson Thomas on Mahler 6th . . . I'll source it before the Fall. Any suggestions for an exceptionally musical interpretation -- and hopefully well recorded -- Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring? And no. . . not that one. . . you know I don't do no Riner and no stokovsky *grins* G. |
Guido my friend, that's mostly pretty polite classical music, as easy to make sound good as jazz. I DO notice that, at least for the ones I know, they're all great performances. The Dvorak gets a little more challenging, but it's really pretty easy on most systems.
My challenge to any system is Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Fransico Phil doing Mahler's 6th. The 3d and 4th movements have it all, from lyrical strings and winds to bombastic percussion, brass and basses. This is both a wonderful performance and incredible symphonic recording.
Dave |
And yes, for what it matters, my test selections at RMAF were classical:
1. Dvorak Symph No. 9 2nd movement with Bernstein and the Israel Phil.
J. S. Bach: Prelude from the 1st English Suite with Andras Schiff.
3. Dvorak String Quartet No. 14 played by Panocha quartet (typically used to chase roaches and other assorted varmins from infested attic -- wonderful performance but recording engineer must have been sniffing glue).
4. Edgar Meyer on double bass playing Prelude and Allemande from Cello Suite No. 5.
Beethoven a movement from a cello sonata with E. Ax and Yo Yo Ma.
5. Lara St. John on a Bach sonata with a Stradivari violin.
G. |
Hi Gawdbless, tell the truth, I did hear the Mahlers with the Rel subs at RMAF as well. . . and begged for the thing to be turned off. . . it was not my cup of tea in that particular setup.. . . somewhat rambling/woolly in the bass with a slight propensity of furballing things higher in the spectrum as well. Much much better/tighter on their own. In 2006 they were being played with JRDG 201 monos, JRDG 501 monos, and with the JRDG 312 stereo. . . . loved them on 312, but not so much with other 2 amps, as they sounded much less musically involving to my particular ears. I understand that feeding the 201s and 501s with the very new PC1 PFC devices introduces some of the musicality found with the 312. . . but I'll need to verify that with my own ears. In 2008 they will be back in the large suite where Lyn was featured in 2007.
As for musical selections, vendors tend to feature what audiophiles like best. . . which are often not my favs at all at all at all. . . that's why I bring my trusty home made sampler with pieces that are important to me. . . . even if at least one of them tends to sound positively hideous in most situations, including with Vienna speakers. . . . and none of the selections pretend to be 'audiophile class' recordings. . . just music that I love!
Hope to see you in Denver! G. |
Got a chance to listen to several active speakers this weekend. Looks like this may be the way to go. Out of the bunch the genelec 8040 sounded the best - a great sounding little speaker - detailed, clean, and sounded good at low and high spl's. Also seemed to handle the high spl's easier than any passive I have listened to. Unfortunately, no one close by had any of the 3 way units or even the 8050. Also looked around for ATC actives but no one close by had those in stock. Looks like it is going to be a good 6 hour drive from the DC area to find either for a demo. Would like to hear from anyone who compared 3way speakers from ATC and Genelec - particularly the Genelec 1037C to the ATC SCM100ASL. Could you described the difference. Also how is the power consumption for these units - i.e. can you run them off the same 15 amp circuit w/o any problem. |
Guido- I will certainly look into the Soundings/JRDG/Sumiko room. I think I heard the Mahlers a few years (2) on the Mezzanine floor/1st floor? in the same room that Linn were in the last year? being run with 3/4 205/305 REL subs? Going from memory so I maybe wrong.
The poor sounding B&W 802's/Classe I will allow for the room they were in should have sounded more like music than hi-fi.
I would not replace those over my KCS Oris 150's which are (to my ears folks) much much more musical, and decidedly less expensive. Each to their own fellow sufferers.
I wonder why jazz is played so much at shows? is it because you can make almost any system sound like a million dollars?
Even the mega expensive ones! lol |
105dB continuous at the listening seat is "crazy loud". You don't even get that sitting in the orchestra or even on a rock and roll bandstand (unless the drummer is an idiot -- yes, that happens). I played with one ridiculously loud big band drummer that got run out of the band and he was only 110 dB five feet away in my rhythm guitar spot. I wore ear protection, as did half the band.
Moving from 85dB average to 95dB average is the difference between audience and orchestra. The peaks, even on stage are still only 110dB or so. Smart rock bands are usually below 100dB on stage (yes, not all are smart) but they're probably 120+dB for the first 20 feet from their main PA, even in a club.
Dave |
Narrowing the field a little. Not interested in horns, electrostats, personal (vs established company) designs etc. Speaker must sound good for both 105 db orchestral and 70 db chamber. David, Ok - let me see - no horn, no panels, no boutique designs. If you mean 105 db SPL continuous then I'd recommend that you need at least an ATC SCM 50ASL (like Gordon Holt who likes classical) and possibly a JL F113 sub or two depending on room size and placement - IMHO. Why? Because if you are listening at 105 db SPL (and sitting a typical 2 meters back) then this is 111 db SPL continuous sound and you will also need plenty of headroom (or else it will sound strained and dull with most non pro dynamic speakers and you ideally want an effortless sound). If you have a bigger room and sit a little further back then you probably need an SCM100 or bigger, as well as the sub(s). The 3 inch midrange in the SCM50 is on the right while the bigger 3" dome for the larger SCM100 to SCM300 range is on the left. Why a photo? because a picture is worth a thousand words - this 3 inch driver has a bigger magnet and bigger diameter voice coil than you see on 99% of all woofers and subwoofers...there is a reason for this and at 105 db SPL at the listening position you will hear that reason (without a horn you will definitely need a design with big motors). It has a wide "waveguide" to control dispersion (this is not a horn). An extremely dynamic pro driver three way like ATC or PMC can certainly handle your needs without the least hint of strain and also play at 70 db with chamber music with no problem with the same accuracy and balance. This is a key reason these speakers are popular in mix/mastering. Note that your ears will inevitably suffer the usual Fletcher Munson loss of hearing sensitivity to bass frequencies at low levels - so it will not sound quite the same but it will not be the speaker fault - just use some loudness or bass tone control if you want a fuller sound at very low levels. Usually the mastering engineers take care of this for you - rock and Mahler sould be mixed thin in the bass so it sounds best real loud (as it is when heard live) - the opposite is done for chamber music. FWIW - I don't hear significant differences in IC's, cables or most CD players - perhaps I have tin ears from listening too loudly! Good luck and happy listening - just don't play it too loudly for too long as it is not good for your hearing. |
"B&W/Vienna Acoustics are consistent in that they don't play anything well."
Well Gawdbless. . . if you have the opportunity of attending the next RMAF, please do pop into the Soundings/JRDG/Sumiko large suite. There you will listen to at least one set or 2 of Vienna speakers )(likely Mahlers and 'Die Muzik') set up correctly and driven by well matched JRDG electronics. Bring your test tracks as I do. . . if in the end Vienna speakers are still not of your taste, at least you will know that you truly do not like them. As for Vienna speakers consistently never playing anything well,. . . 'tis a matter of opinions, isn't it? G. |
Gawdbell said:
"Shouldn't all speakers play all music? Although at least B&W/Vienna Acoustics are consistent in that they don't play anything well."
Thanks for the BS answer. I'm sure there'll be plenty of jazz, just for you, at RMAF. ;-0
Dave |
Shouldn't all speakers play all music? Although at least B&W/Vienna Acoustics are consistent in that they don't play anything well.
Seriously though I am looking forward to the RMAF its a yearly pilgrimage for me to listen and look a lot of the unobtainable, unless I win the Lotto or rob a bank.
I only hope that Jazz is not being played to much in many rooms as of past years. |
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Hi Dave, We will be at RMAF. Bring your classical torture tracks! Our room is very large, but I am hoping we will be able to take advantage of that by having a soundstage as wide as an actual stage. A nice big soundstage where the musicians seem life size instead of miniature is always nice... |
Selfdivider, your kind recommendation is a little. . . how should I say. . . uninformative. Why don't you tell us how these speakers excell in various aspects and subgenres of classical music reproduction. Thanks, G. |
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Vienna Acoustics are very attractive options to B&W for classical.
Linkwitz design is an intriguing option as well and have heard some good things about them, but never actually heard them. |
Musicnoise, Vienna Acoustics has several speakers that will meet your criteria and the crossovers are designed to exclude biwiring.
Dave |
Musicnoise:
When I listen to orchestra music and the peaks are exceeding 100 dB, it's VERY loud, and then moderate to low volumes passages sound unnaturally higher in volume than they should. It sounds like you're looking for a speaker that's dynamic, very neutral, low distortion, and open sounding, with no box stuffiness or coloration. One that will illuminate the room with a linear response both on and off-axis.
Seriously look into the Linkwitz Lab Orion if the budget isn't restricted. Check their website for people willing to allow auditions. If you're anywhere near the Ohio-Indiana-Kentucky area I'd be glad to let you audition both the Orion and the ∏ Audio systems in my home. Let me know. |
Just go with the B&W just not the 803. I think the best model are the 805, 802 and 800. |
Interesting responses. Narrowing the field a little. Not interested in horns, electrostats, personal (vs established company) designs etc. Speaker must sound good for both 105 db orchestral and 70 db chamber. Not interested in opinions from those who think that the speaker wire has an effect (other than the awg) or that biwiring has an effect. size of room subject to vary. budget not a driving force - but large increases in cost for small change in quality is not sought after. |
Atma notes above 20db BTW is a 100:1 difference in power. by which cryptic remark, he means: it takes one HUNDRED TIMES the power to yield an increase of 20dB in spl. (Btw 20dB in spl is 10x louder.) This went unnoticed; how many low sensitivity spkrs can actually produce 20dB dynamic contrast starting from an audible minimum level? Answer: very few if any. Just do the math, the drivers will quick the bucket. So for beauty, choose dynamic spkrs; for concert dynamics, it's only horns. |
Yes Atmashphere, I do think that we have the same end goals and I also suspect that we're both doing very well at achieving them while on different paths. Perhaps you've seen my Virtual System and realize that I've got a relatively small space that is a constraining parameter of my current system. (I don't really feel constrained by my end result, but you always think that you can do more with "more").
In 2009 I expect to move to a home with a larger, dedicated listening space with free rein in the WAF department. I've said before in other threads, I'll be considering horns at that time. I'll also so be revisiting the best of Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber and a few others. It's been a long, long time since I've heard a good horn setup and I'll be certainly find some.
BTW friend, will you be at the RMAF this year? I'd love to buy you a beer, coffee or tea and pick your brain more. That should be a good weekend. That little show is really growing up.
Dave |
Dcstep, your goals and mine look identical on paper. We are thinking the same way there, but went about it differently. I use tubes *because* I can get them to be more neutral, detailed and relaxed; I'm not looking for coloration. On my speakers, you can't get most transistor amps to make good bass, and its easy to demonstrate how profound that difference is (my amps are full power to 1 Hz, unusual in a tube amp).
Like you, I trust my ears first :)
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The 115db peaks of the orchestra would be in the first 10 rows or so if you are in the center. So this is from the listening position.
Although this thread is about speakers, the match between the amp and the speaker is paramount. You do have to pay attention to the intention of the speaker designer to know what kind of amp is going to work with the speaker. Its not always intuitive! For example, horns are traditionally in the realm of tubes, but when I started seeing how the newer Avangarde crossovers were designed, it was obvious to me long before I found out that the speakers were intended for transistors only. In the case of the Trios, there is no tube amp that will sound really right on the speaker, solely on account of the impedance curve.
BTW, Nelson Pass has a good article, published about 2 1/2 years ago in Audio Express, about how full range drivers interact with 'current source' (high impedance, usually tube) amplifiers. He works with solid state of course, and began building high impedance 'current source' amplifiers. The First Watt amps are an example of that.
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It all falls down to, do you want to be the conductor or do you want to be in the back seat, or way out in the hallway!!!
My speakers are about 105-106 db sensitive from 170 hz up (almost no resistors in the Xover), I use MONSTER 12 watt tube amplifiers...whatever you say you dont want to be close (11 feet) to a 300 watt amp and those speakers...what do you think the peak will be in db...
I havent done the numbers yet but I guess 115 db is not far fetched.
I have to be very careful or the speaker cable I use here, and of course I have a resistor stepped attenuator to finely control volume, now its sweet, its extended, detailed like crazy and the dynamics are to die for. not fatiguing or honky at all IMNSHO....
The biggest problem with horns is that you can go very loud and not notice it because distortion is very low, so the bass section has to be as dynamic as the mid-high region, when bass goes that loud things start to shake and you feel your chest thump, so its time to lower the volume...I use SS amps for my multiple bass drivers. |
I sit in front of the percussion in an orchestra or two, and I believe the 115dB, but it's no big deal, since it's usually only for seconds. A much worse situation was playing next to a big band drummer that constantly registered almost 120dB from ten-feet away. (I had to wear plugs on that gig. I keep them in the gigbag).
Still, I think that generally the 115dB is from the conductor's perspective.
Dave |
I looked it up on the American Hearing organization website that symphony orchestra can in fact peak at over 115Db, however they also say that to listen to 115DB for more than 15 minutes per day is not recommended.
Of course, this certainly should not stop any devoted audiophile from wanting to be able to achieve it! |
"A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW"
Is that standing among the musicians in front of the brass and percussion or out in the seats?
In that I am a spectator not a musician, my perspective may be different. I usually like to sit back from the stage a bit so I can soak everything in with a perspective that matchs that when I listen on my system so I can compare. I think my ears would hurt at 115Db so I'm not sure it gets quite so loud there.
I have been to some rock concerts though right in front of the speaks where I do not doubt it was that loud. The volume was also quite uncomfotable and I suspect unhealthy as well. |
06-11-08: Atmasphere said:
"Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior."
Well friend, (I consider this a friendly discussion, BTW)it's hard to listen to more than a few tube amplifiers without concluding that each sounds more different than alike.
Unfortunately tube amps get a bad name because many seem to be designed to color the meet some "need", such as lack of transparency or soft highs or rounded lows. I know that doesn't need to be the case, but many audiophiles think that's the right path. I'm fine with them taking that path.
I'm about transparency, accuracy and clarity with controlled lows and sweet (but accurate) highs. If the source has a nasty edge, then let that nasty edge through. (In this digital age it can be very hard to get a source that doesn't add hardness and I understand why that steers some away from SS). Fortunately for me, I can afford smooth, stress free sources.
The speakers that I tend to be drawn to need relatively high power and high damping (or driver control) capacity (I didn't say damping factor, so don't launch into that lame arguement) so, it's easy to see why I'm drawn to high powered, extremely quite, SS amps.
You can write all the papers you want, and I appreciate that you do that as I do indeed read them and add them to my store of knowledge and concepts, but I make my audio buying decisions with my ears. I like what I've found in SS and if my amplifier isn't on your list of approved SS devices, I could care less.
BTW, the dynamic range that I experience in my listening seat is around 65dB to 110dB. My speakers are properly placed (thank you Sumiko Master Set) so that IM Distortion is minimized and the system stays musical within that range. This is VERY IMPORTANT because minimizing IM distortion has a big impact on the perceived sound and loudness in the listening position. Before alignment I was listening several dB lower, avoiding "shout" and hardness that IMD manifests itself in. Whether the amp is tubes or SS is irrelevant in regards to this issue, assuming it's not generate IMD.
The OP wanted a speaker that worked well for classical music. I think that got answered with a nice variety of options. I'm not sure why we're talking about tubes however, but we are. I'm not anti-tube BTW. My favorite guitar amp (except for gigs were it does a poor job of giving me both the tone I want and the volume I need) is tubed and my headphone amp is tubed. I bought them because they sounded good in those applications, not because I need tubes. (BTW, on gigs I get a great replication of tube amp with a mix of Class D amplification and a multi-effects device that'll give me the sound I need from 20dB to 120dB}.
Dave |
A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db Agreed and distortion is the primary reason why it sounds oppresive on most systems. My experience is they just sound dull and boomy and unpleasant - so you turn it down. Since distortion is perceived as loudness most systems will sound perceptively way too loud long before they reach realistic sound levels/dynamics. I think Dgad is on the right track to getting those 115 db SPL peaks or "Barks" as someone called it. Whatever he chooses it will almost certainly require large bass woofers (possibly even a multitude of 12" + bad boys), absolutely massive cabinets and coupled with either a compression horn mid/mid bass or an extremely high ouput dynamic midrange driver (or a pair of them on each speaker). And all using pro type drivers that dissipate the heat rapidly and compress only 1 or 2 db rather than the usual 6 db or more that you get from Scan drivers... Have Fun! |
We are all cooking in this audio kitchen, I have tried SS chip amps with horns and it was very good actually, the one I tried (have) is DIY but I guess a more refined amp could do very well, a very close friend has the Avantgarde Duos also and just changed from a class A PP Jadis amp to a Meishu SE Audionote, on his system this change was very good I was with him during the AB comparison stage, both amps there...on my system PP class A tube amp (Leak TL12.1) sounded much much better that AN P4 go figure...
There is a big horn guy I emailed with in South Africa who is using Pass First watt amps for midbass and tweeter....but for mids he still uses SE tubes. |
"until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it?"
Very true, a premature induction step is a dangerous thing. . . likewise, unless you have heard all SS amps. . |
Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior.
Of course I do believe in what I am doing. Making tube amps for a living is not the easiest way to make a buck- I don't do this for the money, I do it because I like it.
I also am convinced that someday it will be possible to do as well with solid state what I am able to do with tubes. The access to this is understanding the rules of human hearing and creating a solid state amplifier that obeys those rules. Right now there might one or two solid state amplifiers that are really successful with that. Both of them have limited power, the biggest being the Ridley Audio amp which makes 100 watts.
So- making really musical power is hard. So if you want to reproduce classical, which has the widest dynamic range of any musical form (generally speaking), you need a speaker that will be easy to drive. 20db BTW is a 100:1 difference in power.
The CAR is all of that and with a 60 watt amp you will not need a subwoofer and in most rooms you will not be able to clip the amp either. Plus it is as revealing as anything out there including the best ESLs, so if anyone wonders why they should care? -that's why. I own them but I don't sell them.
If your speaker is only 90 db, you will not be able to reproduce an orchestra at life-like levels. A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db. Most people are happy with 95db; imagine not ever having to think about even coming close to clipping the amp. Taking advantage of tubes' softer clipping is not a good idea in audio, although that works great for electric guitars!
I don't think tube vs transistor discussions are useful because I have come to understand that the conversation is never about that. Take a look again at the link that Duke and I posted earlier, yes its on my website, no, its not actually some sort of marketing thing, its simply the way audio has turned out. Astute readers will see that it generates an access to making a solid state amp that conforms to the rules of human hearing as well as tubes; the discussion of tubes/transistors is the same as objectivist/subjectivist.
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The Continuum is .5dB per attenuator step (I think that the Capri is also), but it takes a setting over 30 to start rising above the abient noise with my speakers rated in the 90-93dB sensitivity range.
I generally listen from a setting as low as 50 (reading by myself, sitting close to the speaker with low ambiant noise) and as high as 79.5 or even just over 80 (trying to knock myself out of the listening position with MTT's excellent Mahler 6th). With a super efficient speaker I suspect that I'd listen around 20 and my upper range might be 29 (BTW, those are step setting readings, not dB). I still think that the loudness refinement would be granular enough, but you'd definitely want to try.
Surely, no one owning horns is going to go buy a Continuum 500, but if you already had one laying around, then it might actually work pretty well.
Dave |
Again I agree with dave here. I have tried the Avantgarde Unos with some pretty powerful SS amps including a Halcro DM38. Most impressive.
If you spoke to Avantgarde themselves you will find they wont recommend tubes, in fact they make their own SS amp. Orpheus amps work very well too. |
