Speakers: Anything really new under the sun?

How does a grounding cable fix cabinet resonances?

Cabinet resonances are an entirely different matter which can be reduced with better internal lining of all surfaces and filling the enclosure with sound absorbing material.

@pedroeb

Cabinet resonances can be reduced but can they ever be reduced below the threshold of human hearing?

Not to say that electrostatics and open baffles are perfect, but isn’t one of their major advantages the lack of a cabinet?

And then what pedroeb? Connect the wire to speaker baskets and then put the other end where? 

Cabinet resonances are an entirely different matter which can be reduced with better internal lining of all surfaces and filling the enclosure with sound absorbing material.

Specific to the speakers that the OP was considering, the review of the model before them had cabinet resonances as a major flaw.

Cabinet resonances can be reduced but can they ever be reduced below the threshold of human hearing?

Generally the good speakers separate the men from the boys in that respect… so yes, they can be reduced to below hearing level, or unmeasurable.

So IME putting grounding wires on these speaker drivers is a bit of a “lipstick on a pig” approach towards fidelity.

Mine are connected to a Russ Andrews RF Router Plug-in.

I agree that resonances can never be fully eliminated but they can be lowed so they have negatable impact.

Here's what I use:

Mundorf Twaron Angel Hair

Well worth investigating along with a sound deadening covering of all internal surfaces to help with lower frequencies.

I agree that resonances can never be fully eliminated but they can be lowed so they have negatable impact.

Here's what I use:

Mundorf Twaron Angel Hair

Well worth investigating along with a sound deadening covering of all internal surfaces to help with lower frequencies

^That^ is all good, but the OP was asking about speakers as a whole system.
Many manufacturers address resonances, and other “State of the art” things. Just it is not clear that the Monitor Audio speakers they were looking at is addressing them.

Maybe they are OK with modifying their speakers? It seems like bracing and deadening the existing speakers could be more worthwhile - but if we knew what’s their new model is doing, we would know whether to mod the old ones, get new ones, or just get something else...

You can apply extraordinary measures to eliminate cabinet resonance and the result is a speaker like those made by Magico.  Is this good?  It depends on whether you like their speakers.  There is no defined engineering path to a great sounding speaker.  Ultimately, we like what we like, and what we like comes down to a personal preference for a particular combination of strengths and weaknesses (i.e., the right compromises) and perhaps even a liking for certain distortions.

If we never come close to agreeing on what is a great sounding speaker, how can we then extrapolate from this uncertain data what is the right approach to speaker design?

@audioguy85 

Indeed! I bought a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 12.2's this year. I've been fooling around in the audio world since the mid 70's. The 12.2's are much better than anything available, inflation compensated, for the same money in the 70's or 80's. 

You can apply extraordinary measures to eliminate cabinet resonance and the result is a speaker like those made by Magico.

And a dozen others or more.

There is no defined engineering path to a great sounding speaker.

The engineering path to troubled speakers is easier:

• Cabinet resonances
• Compression limiting dynamics
• High distortion
• poor frequency response
• directivity issues
• port noises
• cone breakup
• Issues with diffraction
• issues with phase in the crossover regions

And probably a few more??

Many companies make speakers using quality drivers and cabinets that address the majority of the issues. And most of them sound pretty good.

If we never come close to agreeing on what is a great sounding speaker, how can we then extrapolate from this uncertain data what is the right approach to speaker design?

I thought many people did agree on which speakers are great sounding and many agree on which are poor sounding?

There is range in the middle, say $500-$5000 , where the cost compromises affect 1 or more areas, and we end up not being very certain that they are good. Or some will abide the flaws and others will abide different flaws more easily.

So there is a huge agreement on the manufacturers side where they know what makes a speaker good and bad, and which flaws they can overlook to limit cost.

I can point to handfuls of speakers I would be happy with, from quite a few manufactures. That gets a lot harder in the $1000 range as there are usually 2 or more flaws so we have your “Pros and cons”… the better ones just have fewer cons.

@holmz 

"I can point to handfuls of speakers I would be happy with, from quite a few manufactures. That gets a lot harder in the $1000 range as there are usually 2 or more flaws so we have your “Pros and cons”… the better ones just have fewer cons."

And still - these days there are a number of $500-$1000 speakers that while having flaws, are quite satisfying. It's all about making the right compromises. In some respects, I think it's harder to make a very good speaker that needs to match a price point vs a cost is no issue design. Look at the original Andrew Jones speakers for Pioneer. Certainly had their faults but what a great accomplishment!

You can apply extraordinary measures to eliminate cabinet resonance and the result is a speaker like those made by Magico. Is this good? It depends on whether you like their speakers. There is no defined engineering path to a great sounding speaker. Ultimately, we like what we like, and what we like comes down to a personal preference for a particular combination of strengths and weaknesses (i.e., the right compromises) and perhaps even a liking for certain distortions.

If we never come close to agreeing on what is a great sounding speaker, how can we then extrapolate from this uncertain data what is the right approach to speaker design?

Agreed. If you subscribe to S’Phile, read the very interesting viewpoint of Jonathan Weiss of Oswalds Mill Audio and his sister company’s Fleetwood Sound Co Deville loudspeaker. I am not sure how much I am allowed to quote but it is a quote of a quote so I am think I am safe to repeat;

" Loudspeaker manufacturers in general have moved in the wrong direction over the past decades, in a race to the bottom, trying to make the deadest, heaviest, most nonresonant enclosures".

He goes on to say this effort results in heavy, sluggish sound.

As you have so correctly stated it is a matter of taste. And priorities. I happen to believe that complex machined metal enclosures along the likes of Magico appeal to consumers who think that cutting edge tech must in some res ipso facto manner result in better sound. A few reviewers at Stereophile support this conclusion based on their listening. I have heard Magicos repeatedly and the sound to me is indeed heavy and sluggish. And dull and boring.

I don’t mean to make this discussion an assault or focus upon S’Phile but let’s face it, it is the most widely read and influential audio publication in the US. My take is that there are two basic camps-when it comes to loudspeakers- comprised of John Atkinson, Jason Victor Serinus, and arguably Michael Fremer who gravitate to the inert enclosure approach and then the second camp of Herb Reichert and Ken Micallef carrying on the torch of the legendary Art Dudley who listen for different things and are able to set aside the search for the "latest and greatest" for the beauty of alternative thought and paradigms/vintage/subjectivity and the all-important appreciation of "how does this loudspeaker make me feel?".

I think that it’s pretty much true of all of the heroically inert cabinet designs that they are successful in making the speakers "disappear" as sources, but I agree with fsonicsmith in thinking that it is not an overall solution to sound that is superior to other cabinet design philosophies. I personally just bought a pair of Spendor SP100’s for the second time after a hiatus with other speakers, and their cabinets are far from dead, but they are very successful in communicating the music.

@holmz 

"I can point to handfuls of speakers I would be happy with, from quite a few manufactures. That gets a lot harder in the $1000 range as there are usually 2 or more flaws so we have your “Pros and cons”… the better ones just have fewer cons."

And still - these days there are a number of $500-$1000 speakers that while having flaws, are quite satisfying. It's all about making the right compromises. In some respects, I think it's harder to make a very good speaker that needs to match a price point vs a cost is no issue design. Look at the original Andrew Jones speakers for Pioneer. Certainly had their faults but what a great accomplishment!

And I 100% agree with ^this^.

The title of the thread was is there anything new under the sun, and there really isn’t in the ~1k$ range… 

Those speakers are compromising just about all the “new tech” in favour of being able to be affordable… including sometimes the simplest of internal bracing.

There is no reason for an inert, stiff enclosure to be inferior, all things equal, and assuming it is indeed  inert and stiff. Any matters of teste will not change that.

New Node Audio Hylixa Signature is unlike any other speaker !

https://www.node-audio.com/the-making-of/

https://www.node-audio.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2XwAje-vWo

 https://www.facebook.com/NodeAudioResearch/

Here’s the Hylixa Technical White Paper on these Node Audio Hylixa Signature speakers...Very Interesting !

https://www.node-audio.com/docs/hylixa-technical-white-paper.pdf

 https://www.node-audio.com/hylixa/

6moons reviewed these Node Audio Hylixa speakers and they won an Blue Moon Award

 https://www.6moons.com/audioreview_articles/node/

Bayz Audio Courante 2.0’s are the best speakers that 6moons has ever heard but they cost much more here in the USA compared to Node Audio Hylixa Signatures.

https://www.6moons.com/audioreview_articles/bayz/

Those Node Hylixa speakers have some interesting design elements, but they're -6dB at 56Hz anechoically and have a sensitivity of just 82.4dB/2.83V.

I'm sure they'll come out with a suitably unaffordable subwoofer.

Node Audio’s 3D Printed Hi-Fi Speaker Cabinets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5o2uYAJb3I&t=204s

Allot of great comments here and many positive reviews out there on the OP’s current speakers. Jaybird, installing active crossovers in your current speakers may be a very rewarding project. I have 3-way, 8-ohm cabinets with very stiff cones and surrounds. The sensitivity is in the mid-90 dB’s.   

I’m using a Rane 23B 3-way fully balanced active stereo crossover. Each cabinet driver has a separate amplifier. The L/R balanced leads from the processor plugs into the Rane. The 23B has 3 pairs of balanced outputs for cables to the 6 amplifiers needed for both cabinets, Each speaker has rotary dials on the 23B to Easily set the correct crossover points and volume levels (being especially careful with the Fs limits). The critical info needed is each speakers crossover points. The Fs on manufacturer’s spec sheets is the absolute lowest frequency a speaker can safely handle. The tweeters are most sensitive to this critical setting.

Once you verify the OEM spec crossover points, the rest gets easier. I chose SEA tweets w/ a Fs at 2K, and 7-inch midrange drivers that play up to 4500 hz. To keep the full midrange (300-3000 hz) on one driver, I set the XO between the Mid/Tweeters at 4500 Hz (sounded best/most natural to me), and Bass/midrange drivers at 200 Hz (and again, sounded most natural to me). 

Keeping my processor at low volumes and using a sound level meter, I started with the midrange at full volume on the 23B, then, turned up the bass to match, and lastly matched the tweeters. Then, used the processor’s SET UP feature to set the distances and better match each cabinets volume levels together. The 15 inch woofers play flat to 35 Hz and I added a SVS Ultra sub to play 20-35Hz. Ultimately, I tweeked the 23B volume levels slightly using a frequency test CD by isolating each driver. It was that easy. I still get chills listening to music and haven’t looked back in over 10 years. 

From the institution that brought us the Bose speakers, come this new approach to piezo-electric speakers:

https://news.mit.edu/2022/low-power-thin-loudspeaker-0426

 

Allot of great comments here and many positive reviews out there on the OP’s current speakers. Jaybird, installing active crossovers in your current speakers may be a very rewarding project. I have 3-way, 8-ohm cabinets with very stiff cones and surrounds. The sensitivity is in the mid-90 dB’s.   

I’m using a Rane 23B 3-way fully balanced active stereo crossover. Each cabinet driver has a separate amplifier. The L/R balanced leads from the processor plugs into the Rane. The 23B has 3 pairs of balanced outputs for cables to the 6 amplifiers needed for both cabinets, Each speaker has rotary dials on the 23B to Easily set the correct crossover points and volume levels (being especially careful with the Fs limits). The critical info needed is each speakers crossover points. The Fs on manufacturer’s spec sheets is the absolute lowest frequency a speaker can safely handle. The tweeters are most sensitive to this critical setting.

Once you verify the OEM spec crossover points, the rest gets easier. I chose SEA tweets w/ a Fs at 2K, and 7-inch midrange drivers that play up to 4500 hz. To keep the full midrange (300-3000 hz) on one driver, I set the XO between the Mid/Tweeters at 4500 Hz (sounded best/most natural to me), and Bass/midrange drivers at 200 Hz (and again, sounded most natural to me). 

Keeping my processor at low volumes and using a sound level meter, I started with the midrange at full volume on the 23B, then, turned up the bass to match, and lastly matched the tweeters. Then, used the processor’s SET UP feature to set the distances and better match each cabinets volume levels together. The 15 inch woofers play flat to 35 Hz and I added a SVS Ultra sub to play 20-35Hz. Ultimately, I tweeked the 23B volume levels slightly using a frequency test CD by isolating each driver. It was that easy. I still get chills listening to music and haven’t looked back in over 10 years. 

I generally find it easier to focus on the negatives.

So if the OP was going to do that, then adding some extra dampening and bracing would likely help to tame the resonances.

That Rane looks like it might be worth playing with for me.

Field Coils like how Classic Audio Loudspeaker are doing, bringing back Field Coils and improving them much more, I think they are one of the most musically statifying speakers available with transparency that will match the best speakers out their.  They are the fastest drivers iv experienced feels like ESL/Planners.

 Maybe in other hobby interests this happens too. For example, I got back into cycling 20+ years ago, only to find that the bicycles of my youth were nothing like the advancements that they had made in the meantime. Brakes were better, wheels somehow were better, and more. Same thing in photography when everything went to digital. Maybe a rough start, but quite impressive for the last 15 years or so. 

 Audio is no different. Speakers have much the same designs though, as a bass reflex design still is very common, or a ported design. There may new interest in other design such as open baffle, which I find to be incredible in many ways. 

 In the end, if you have a 'decent' speaker to start with, as much could accomplished and more with speaker placement or somehow hiding room treatment.

 >>>Here is a tip about room treatment: In my case, I use pillows and chairs and maybe a memory foam sheet to cover the couch. The chairs with pillows on the back of the chair, is really convenient to move around as needed for control of reflections. Best part is, you can put it all back after a listening session, and the WAF is nil. 

Major-Breakthrough for Planar loudspeakers !

 Diptyque Audio Reference Loudspeakers