Speakers (and system) for a small-ish room
@arafiq Congratulations with your new system. Don’t be surprised if you find yourself hangin’ out in the study more than you ever did before!! |
So glad you have come to like them. I love mine too. They are indeed glorious with a midrange to die for, a very clean bass and no harshness at all. The little Naim will indeed be enough in such a very small room. But as you say at higher listening levels you are already experiencing limitations - I think those are from the Naim and not from the Harbeths. Of course such small speakers have dynamic limitations, but they would be far less with a beefier amplifier (I use a refurbished 2x100 watt Quad 405-2 in my 18 sq m study). Alan Shaw recently demonstrated them at the Bristol Audio show using a 2x100 watt Yamaha AS 701. In a larger room they can also benefit enormously from a subwoofer (or preferably two, plus Antimode 8033 room eq). I did that as an experiment in our living room (using a refurbished 2x140 watt Quad 606-2), and the result was pretty spectacular even if the system could not quite fill this large room. Integration was perfect, making for a strange sensation of deep bass seemingly coming out of these tiny boxes. As for stands, the crucial thing is to have the tweeters at ear height, and as accurately as you can achieve. |
So a quick update on the P3s... Initially, I was not much impressed with the little Harbeths. Since then I bought new stands (based on @yogiboy ’s recommendation) and filled them with play sand. The stands gave me the flexibility to place the speakers about 1.5 ft from the wall and roughly 4 feet apart. I cannot believe the impact that stands have had on the performance of these speakers. I can say without hesitation that these little gems are everything they’ve been cracked up to be, and then some more. My initial fears of the Naim Unitiqute being underpowered were unfounded. In my room (10x13 and 12 ft ceilings), the amp is more than sufficient. This is my first Naim gear, and I must say that I’m really impressed with the control and finesse this little guy brings to the table. So how do they compare to the KEF LS50 wireless? I think it’s a very difficult decision to make. They both bring something to the table that I enjoy. I still feel that KEF is one of the best mini-monitors that I’ve owned in terms of imaging and clarity. They definitely hold their own when listening at moderate to high volume. I have them set up in a much bigger room than the one housing the P3s, so obviously that has to be taken into consideration. Now on to the Harbeths ... it takes some time to get used to their presentation style. But, boy once you’re on the hook, they are addictive. I had only read about their mid-range prowess but it is something that has to be experienced first hand to relate to the reviews and high praise. I can safely say that it is the best $1150 I have spent in this hobby so far. There’s a certain fullness and tonal balance in the overall sound that I had never experienced before. Bass might not be their high point, but what you get is taut and controlled and very satisfying. Not once did I feel like I need to add a sub to the mix. The sound is delicious as it is. I can listen to my music for hours with zero fatigue. Last year, I had demoed a Sonus Faber Olympica 1 driven by expensive tube gear at a dealer. I remember being smitten by the effortless and holographic sound. I know that the Nami Unitiqute is SS and not really a powerhouse but somehow there is a certain ’tubyness’ (if that’s a word lol) that reminds me of the SF combo I heard. For low to moderate level listening, I feel that the Harbeths far surpass the KEFs. There’s something just so intimate and comforting about their sound. The KEFs hold their own when cranked up though, this is where I think the P3s start to show some weakness, but that’s probably the intended design choice. In short, when I feel like listening to my music, my feet tend to walk themselves toward the study (P3s) somehow. Oh, and lastly, my wife who usually doesn’t care much about how the speakers look told me that the P3s are classy and blend in with the overall decor of the study. I was on the fence a few weeks ago, so thank you to everyone who encouraged me to give the P3s a try. |
I’ve been faced with similar issues. I own with very good impressions; Tetra 120u, Totem - Rainmakers, Dreamcatchers, EPOS elan 10, Silverline minuet supreme plus, Silverline 17’s finally what has evolved is keeping them as I purchased and switch them around periodically. If I narrow the list to most favorite... EPOs elan 10, Totems ....I enjoy them all for various reasons, the last two mentioned stand out more often it seems. Good luck! |
I used to build a small system with speakers being 2 feet apart and I got a clear soundstage. Remember to keep some distance between the wall and your speakers. The sturdiest speaker stands I have ever used are DIY. I stacked three
Concrete Blocks ($1.35/each) sold by Home Depot and glued them in between as a stand. If you think they are ugly, you may wrap them with a fabric in the color you like. Now I built a medium system in my living room and learned that the Stereo Imaging is influenced by the length of audio cables. The imaging with a pair of 3 meter long cables is larger than the imaging with a pair of 1.5 meter long cables. They sound like the difference between watching a 70 inch and 46 inch LED TVs in my living room. To see if your Unitiqute is powerful enough, you may use this Calculator to find out. |
Finally took the plunge and bought the Harbeth P3esr's along with the Naim Unitiqute today. Have been playing it for the last 2-3 hours. Right now, the stands are on order so they're sitting on a really small console which is not very sturdy. Only 6 inches from the wall and only a little over two feet apart. The first word that came to my mind after listening to them is 'polite', followed by 'balanced'. Obviously, with the speakers being only 2 feet apart, there's not much of a soundstage. Definitely a very different presentation from my KEF LS50w's. So far I have not found them to be as enjoyable as the KEFs. The KEF's imaging is more precise. But I guess I should wait for my stands and position them properly before forming an opinion. |
Alright, so the seller changed his mind again. I'm going to go pick them up on Saturday!! It's in cherry color for $1150. He is willing to throw in a Naim Unitiqute (v1) for an additional $600. Sounds very enticing! My only concern is if the Unitiqute (I think it has 30w/channel) is powerful enough to adequately drive the P3s. Does anyone have any experience with this combo? |
You didn't tell us what type of music you would listen to on this system. Classic rock. vocals, jazz, small classical, large classical, techno...? I always have a small system (not desktop speakers) in my 10'x13' office. I have usually used gear that I has been lying around. If I was going to do it again from scratch, I would stick to tubes and use the decware Zen Mini Torii tube amp or an Linear Tube Audio MZ2. For speakers I would use a pair of Omega Super 3i monitor speakers or maybe the decware DM945 bookshelf speakers. The Omegas are rear-ported but Louis can build you a pair with the ports on the front. Any combination of these components can be had for under $2K. It would be hard to find better sound at this price, IMO. |
Well, looks like it was too good to be true. I made a deal with the seller to pick them up on Wednesday 3/14. Today I saw that he pulled the ad off of craigs list. Texted him to see what's going on. He's now claiming that he has had a change of heart and decided to keep the speakers after all. Bummer! |
Apart from my Quad electrostats in the main listening room and some modest speakers in de the bedroom, I have both the 11 Ohm LS3/5a and the Harbeth P3ESR as mini monitors. Both are pleasant, but for me there is no doubt that the Harbeth beats the old LS3/5a by a pretty wide margin. It is much more neutral, can handle far more power, and has deeper and tighter bass. |
I have the KEF LS50s and the Harbeth P3esrs and love them both. (I have also gone with the philosophy of not repeating speakers because there are too many great ones out there.) I also own and love the Trenner and Friedl Suns which will do great a foot away from the wall. They apparently work amazingly well with Heed electronics. I would also consider the Falcon Acoustics Ls3/5a; for a budget system I have head the Line Magnetic 211 amplifier is a really good match. And I'm intrigued by the Watkins Stereo Generation 4 (see recent review in Absolute Sound). As I said, too many great small speakers to chose from! Good luck- Margot |
Arfafig, yes the Kef LS 50 are wonderful. However, if you are drawn to the clarity and speed and big soundstage, I honestly doubt, you would love the Harbeths, which do not have the same clarity, they do throw a big soundstage but the Harbeth sound is a bit more laid back and less exciting then the LS 50 ditto with the Vandys. I am a bit shocked at the gentleman who said the VLR was cleaner then the LS 50 a plastic coned driver has usually more colored sound and is usually more veiled than a metal cone. There is a tremendous amount of technology in the LS 50 and the driver is derived from the Kef Blade, you should hear the VLR them and judge for yourself. The only smallish speaker that I have heard that will beat the LS 50 is the Technics monitors, they are really amazing at $1,700 a pair they are even clearer with a slighly warmer midrange then the LS 50. Read the Steve Guttenberg review on CNET. These are one of the few under $2k speakers that I like better than the LS 50. Talk to Audio Visions SF they sell both I think all three lines, I think they will tell you the Technics are amazing. Also the Dali Mentor Minuet which is now $1299 is a remarkable little speaker that has a huge sound, wamer then the LS 50 but we prefer the Dali to the KEF LS 50 as it sounds even bigger, a tad richer, and has deeper bass. For an amp a Rega Brio is shockingly musical and it has a great phono stage but no built in digital.Also the Nuprime IDA 8 which is very tranparent, with amazing bass control and a great built in dac for $995. You may also want to check out the Naim Uniti Qute which are selling for a $1,200-$1,600.00 The Uniti Qute has a punchy 30 watt amp, a built in dac and streamer, and it has that famous Naim sound The Naim might be an excellent choice it is the perfect little amp, compact, built in streamer, built in dac, analog inputs, fantastic streaming app, some have built in Blue Tooth tube like without tubes. If you are looking for a great tube amp the Cayin 50t was very good. Good luck. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@arafiq I use them with Quicksilver amps. My friend uses his with Rogue tube amps. You should grab them at that price. I have never seen a used pair for less than $1500. I use mine with these stands. BTW, I have owned many monitors and I always go back to the Harbeths. You just might like them better than your KEFS! http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGDS400 |
@schubert I did some research on Totems and Silverline. Based on reviews, it seems that the Totems might be a bit forward sounding compared to the Harbeth. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know how this would play out if I'm only seated about 6 feet from them. I'll look into Silverlines, maybe there's a used pair available for sale somewhere. |
Thanks for the suggestions. I had not considered Vandersteen before, but the VLR surely looks promising. For some reason, I always thought that Vandersteens were better as floorstanders. The only problem is that I don't see any used ones for sale. And I don't want to buy new. Which also rules out the iFi Retro system. @yogiboy Would you mind telling me which tube amp (or integrated) you're using with your harbeths? @yyzsantabarbara Sorry for being dense, but I'm not able to comprehend your answer. Are you making a case in favor of KEF or against them? Lol, sorry for being dense. As of today, the p3esr's are available locally, and the seller is willing to part with them for $1150. He is claiming that they are only about a year old and pretty much flawless. The only thing is that once I buy them, I have to look for stands and an integrated amp, etc. Part of me is saying that I should just get another KEF LS50 wireless and be done with it. No need to match it with another amp or streamer. I already know, and like, the sound characteristics. Tough decision. But I guess I need to move fast before those Harbeths are gone. The good thing is that if I get them at this price, I don't think I'll have any problems moving them without incurring a loss if I'm not satisfied. |
I similarly use Harbeth P3ESRs in my study and they are truly excellent - The best small speakers I have ever heard. Since they are a sealed system they can be placed relatively close to the wall (a foot is fine). They like a bit of power, and I would concur with their designer Alan Shaw that solid state would be best. In my case, I use my desktop computer as my only source, and an ODAC usb DAC into an Emotiva Control Freak volume control/passive pre amp into a refurbished 2x100 watt Quad 405-2 power amplfier (with some additional attenuators because the Quad has such a high input sensitivity). That is the kind of amplifier power and quality that they like. Alan Shaw recently used a 2x100 watt Yamaha AS701 to demonstrate them at the Bristol Hifi Show. Have a look at the Harbeth Users Group, with many excellent no nonsense contributions by Alan Shaw himself. These little beauties are glorious. |
