Another interesting Alpha Audio (skeptic) interview on Live music & the ties with Atmos music...also gets into an interesting discussion on what Meyer Sound is up to these days.
Speaker Selection Strategies For Atmos Music
I started a thread on budgeting for BOTH channel based audio as well object based audio. This thread is to help share strategies for budgeting for adding new speakers to an existing system or for starting from scratch.
The BIG misunderstanding I have seen so far is Atmos= cutting holes in your ceiling for ceiling speakers. No, that is only one of many options and I have never tried it (in a 9.3.8 system) so can’t discuss. if a member went the ceiling install route and wants to share some pearls of wisdom, that would be great.
So, let’s break down basic strategy for Atmos Speaker selection.
Strategy 1- Don’t use height channels! Atmos is backward compatible and a 5.1 system will fold the information from the height channels into the bed channels. No muss no fuss.
Strategy 2- Add satellite/monitors to your existing system. Check with your speaker manufacturer or dealer and see what they recommend. Give them your budget, what you already have and believe me, they’ll respond. Tip 1- to the wise, get a 30-60 day return policy just in case. Satellite speakers can be mounted high on the wall as height channels or faced downward and mounted right on the ceiling by purchasing brackets made for this purpose. Tip 2- Do NOT use dipoles/bipoles per dolby guidelines.
Strategy 3- Buy speakers that are made for atmos/height wall mounting. installation. I used JBL Control Now’s in the man cave, SVS makes Prime Elevation speakers, Finally speaker manufacturers have an entire category of atmos speakers, shop til you find what you like. Tip, I like wall mounting because you can angle the tweeters at the sweetspot, ceiling installs often have tweeters aimed at the floor.
Strategy 4- Go active. Active speakers are what they mostly use in the studios, most active speakers are biamped, use active crossovers, and monitors are easily mounted on stands or on sturdy wall mounts.
Strategy 5- If you have budget disregard everything above and just call a good custom installer. CEDIA certifies for this purpose but word of mouth works too.
Re: subwoofers, subwoofers get into a category of bass management which deserves its own thread. My only tip would be to budget for at least two, place them in corners (like front left corner, rear right corner) and use DSP or an equalizer to integrate them (most receivers and processors have this feature built in).
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I am not sure I agree with the suggestion that you can skip the side surrounds as Kota suggests above (although I usually like his posts). From my own experience the side surround is super critical to conveying space in music and motion in movies. And I’ve also discovered the side needs to be placed forward-before the half point to rears. The sense of motion is affected by this. i do agree you can get by with one set of overheads for movies but only IF you have side surrounds. Upper motion is not so possible with just one L/R overhead set and that may be important to the movie. Say top gun maverick or something like that.
oh and Kota has it right about subs- two at a minimum and I would go front and back. ATMOS suffers from a lack of bass in the back if you think of the room as a 3D space. Thata picture of blackbird and the big rig we did in there, that started as 3 then 4 and then 6: one left and right, two centered, one left right rears. That sound pretty good. And it is possible to use small inexpensive subs here as quantity wins in smoothing the room out. I say better to have multiple small ones than one big one. | ||
@lonemountain The main items that got debunked by Steven Wilson is Darko’s age old assumption that there is barely any native mixes/ material available for atmos music, which is simply untrue. Record companies are pushing every new artist/album in the direction of both stereo and atmos mixes. 90+ % of the best selling albums last year have atmos mixes available. 35% of apple’s entire catalog has some type of spatial/object based audio mix available. Leave Dolby aside, Sony is the new player here pushing artists into 360 reality audio, etc. Last, but, not the least, the upmixers do a pretty good job of salvaging trashy stereo mixes in the absence of a native atmos mix.
Due to height virtualization available within the codecs in newer atmos processors, one could even possibly get away with no heights anymore. A stereo purist already has 2 speakers and 2 subs. If those 2 speakers are worth their salt, he wouldn’t even need a center channel. All he would need to do is add 2 surrounds. 360 reality, atmos or even Yamaha’s own dsp works quite well with just 4 speakers and 2 subs for music. I was listening to a guy’s half a million dollar stereo rig this weekend (set up quite well). But, it simply hits a wall and falls short, unable to reach the envelopment, immersion, closer to "live", etc experience of a correctly set up object based audio rig. It is still stuck with the poor DR stereo recordings. It is just the limitation of channel based stereo and one can’t overcome it.
@kota1 has some good suggestions above. But, as far as hifi atmos or object based audio goes, it is really quite simple. For example, if a guy has 2 Borresen X1 standmounts and 2 subs for his stereo, all he would need to do is add 2 more of the same for surrounds. If a guy has 2 Mofi Sourcepoint 8 standmounts and 2 subs for his stereo, All he would need to do is add 2 more of the same for surrounds. Assuming a stereo guy already has a high fidelity power amplifier for his stereo, he would just need to add one more amp for his surrounds and get the right processor with height virtualization. It is so not too expensive or all that complex. Most of these guys spend more on "extremely poor returns on sonics" wire/cables than a extra pair of speakers some days. | ||
With most of the modern A/V HT receivers with ATMOS decoding, you can choose a 5.1 or 7.1 set up just on the floor and no overheads. Since its object based, the software is supposed to "pull" the 7.1 out of the avaiable info and ignore the overrheads (which would be 11.1 if you had overheads).. THis gives you one of the nicest things in ATMOS, the side surrounds which are brilliant at motion- especially important in movies. | ||
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@Deep_33 Thanks for posting that Steve Wilson interview. That's pretty much the same info the poeple I know on the mix side say to me. He's honest about the binaural nature of air pods, but basing your acceptance of ATMOS based on that alone is not enough to end it. Its APPLE's tech that developed air pods and it may not necessarily represent the future of ATMOS. Its worth noting that it is possible to have a good air pod presentation or a bad one, via how a given piece is arranged and mixed. There are engineers out there figuring it out. The discrete channel playback is a challenge but the challenge of it doesnt mean we should give up. When done correctly its extraordinary. Yes it costs more than two spealers but it does not cost 300K. Brad | ||
This post aged well. | ||
ATMOS has many complex issues that are hard to convey quickly and simply. The main idea I have always had, even from the time I visited Dolby to discuss the ATC systems they bought to design ATMOS on, was the important first step to three dimensional audio that could actually work with available delivery systems someone might be able to own at home. Front to back (5.1) and left to right (stereo) we already have; Up and down is missing and is a very important part of 3 dimensions. The center channel is 99% dedicated to dialogue with movies but on ATMOS music (readily available on blu ray and others) the mixer can use the center for whatever they want (and they do). The overheads are designed to be aimed at the mix position only, not the floor. In your home you would aim them at your listening position. 2 in front of you L/R and 2 behind you L/R. This would bring up the same dispersion issues your main speakers face when addressing your listening position. Wide dispersion would be an advantage and speaker position would be important to consider. You can’t just throw them up there anywhere. There is a variant of ATMOS "ready" speakers that uses a specially filtered speaker to bounce audio off the ceiling. You can recognize these as they are angled and are usually designed to be placed on the main L/R. IMHO this method cannot get you to the same place as overheads and no one uses this method to build ATMOS mixes I am aware of. But in fairness, if you don’t want to cut holes in your ceiling it’s a possibility that does work better than nothing. The workaround I prefer is full range direct radiators (regular speakers, preferably the same brand/model as the sides and rears) high on the walls aimed down to your listening position. Ive tried 2 speakers L/R high on the front wall and 2 L/R high on the back wall; Ive tried 2 speakers (front and back) high on the two side walls. The same 20x15x9 typical home listening room was used in both. In all cases you have to locate the speakers so your listening position is within the dispersion pattern of the speaker. Also know that boundary mounting will boost bass and ceiling speakers mounted flush do not have this issue. If you mount these height speakers on front/back or sidewalls, pushed up to the corner of wall and ceiling, you can boost bass as much as 6dB and this can really mess with EQ. (not a lot of bass used in ambience) You can also get in trouble by mounting a speaker designed for vertical use and rotating it to horizontal use as a height speaker because now the designed horizontal dispersion is now rotated 90 degrees to be vertical dispersion. You don’t want wide vertical due to excessive reflections off ceilings and walls. Since so much of what is placed in the overhead channels is ambience/space/motion there is a lot of high end in it and you won’t get the effect if you are missing top end via narrow dispersion. In music, anything can be in the overheads, as Giles Martin showed us in his expert ATMOS mixes of Beatles and others. He is the best! Giles’ ATMOS systems are ATC SCM100s at Abbey Road. Same speaker in every channel. Using verticals can be very effective in giving the mix a sense of height instead of this flat two dimensional plane of audio you get in 5.1. {Phase tricks and speakers that are very good at imaging are not enough compared to actually placing audio overhead). Some mixers are using overheads for exciting artist driven effects such as motion or isolated events previously buried are now [surprise!] overhead. The prince "When Doves Cry" Atmos mix is like that. It was done at Blackbird in Nashville on a big 9.1.4 ATC rig they installed the day before. Im not sure I like it used like that but every artist has their own idea of what they want. I think Giles use of vertical playback is tasteful and what I imagine they might have done if they could have when recorded. But I digress..... There is also an issue as to the location of side speakers. In movies, ATMOS is used to convey motion- front to back is the most dramatic and important. 5.1 can do this and has been used since the first Jurassic Park 5.1. Locating the side speakers in the right locations is important (first side speaker cannot be too far back or it fails to give you that smooth image without major gaps from Mains to side to rears). ATMOS is very room dependent (as are all speakers), so planning is important. Object based does allow the processor to fold down all the info into whatever speaker arrangement you select on the processor, but that doesn’t mean it gives you the same effect as the discrete channel 7/9/11 output. 5.1 for example, has no up and down (vertical) component and 7/9/11 all do. ATMOS can be stunning done properly on a good, properly done system. But as all playback systems, there are many issues with what gear, how it’s installed, what the room is like etc. Some of the naysayers of ATMOS I suspect have never heard it done properly (which admittedly is rare in consumer audio world). I’m lucky to have heard it right, but I’ve also heard it be awful on certain playback systems, methods (Apple Spatial does have some real phase weirdness on earbuds) and rooms. Ive spoken to mixers doing important legacy mixes who have been frustrated by the software, but Ive also heard some of these figure out how to use and develop spectacular ATMOS mixes. I have heard from several of them the Apple Max headphones are a lot better than any other ATMOS headphone/earbud. So I always go back to the three dimensional idea: if we could have 3 dimensional audio in all audio, that would be ideal as this is the way real sound works. ATMOS isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot closer to the target of 3D than anything that’s come before and can actually be delivered and mixed/produced. Having been involved in the SoundField B Format mic, Ive been chasing this 3D audio creation thing for a while. It’s a very big challenge and every attempt so far has failed either in engineering flaws or in the inability to execute on playback. ATMOS is a step forward in my view and despite its challenges, it’s worth implementing if you think you can do it right. Some of the source material is great, some not, just like stereo. Brad | ||
@rshank64 , If you have native mixes, which is a growing number by the day, that is great. If you don't have a native atmos, auro, 360 reality (Sony) mix, etc, take a look at the vast majority of stereo mixes and you will note that many of them are trash (also the reason why many audiophiles have small audiophile playlists on repeat). The "upmixers" such as DolbySU, Auromatic, 360 SSM, etc do a pretty good job of salvaging these trash stereo mixes when upmixed. Personally, I use a couple of Yamaha's own home grown dsp upmixers on most stereo mixes. I have had multiple musicians audit their own stereo recordings vs an upmixed presentation on one of my rigs. I have yet to hear one of them say that the stereo mix sounded better. Guess what? If the upmix sounded better to the artist (made his jaw drop).....works for me! | ||
Thanks for your thread. I found your posts very useful. Atmos music is now very big on streaming platforms and getting bigger. I really enjoy Atmos music streaming as well as on blu rays. Atmos simply adds significantly to the enjoyment of the music. For any audiophile this should be the next level extention to the stereo system however other constrains may not allow it for many! Some of the remixes in Atmos is like hearing it for the first time all over again. You have to experience it to know how good it can be. | ||
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When you contrast the process of building a stereo it is complicated. You have to mix and match, carefully curate, spend and upgrade and maybe you still aren’t happy (just look at the threads of people who are lets say, less than thrilled..) That is NOT the way to properly select speakers for Atmos music UNLESS you are loaded and like to shop (been there, done that, it takes too much time and aggravation). Selecting speakers for Atmos should be quick, easy, and most importantly "budget worthy". If you can recreate what they heard in the studio or at the concert hall in basically a couple of days, why would you want to take a couple of years while burning a hole in your pocket? A) Select an active speaker package like one of the examples above (there are plenty of other brands too, ATC, Dynaudio, Bryston, Yamaha, JBL, etc). B) Get a processor or a processor plus a 2 channel preamp. c) Install and crack a beer and a smile. Feel like stereo, click, feel like surround, click, feel like atmos, click and you are pretty much done.
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You take these speakers and slide in a good processor in your own home and its likely (very likely) you will have a stunning system, capable of reference level stereo and Atmos music, with fewer racks, fewer speaker wires, AND possibly fewer needs for future upgrades at a very, very, reasonable cost. The Focal speakers are $7K and add in $2K for a nice processor and you have money left over for some studio grade Mogami XLR cables to hook everything up. The PMC speakers are $27K and add in $20K for a SOA processor like Storm Audio, Lyngdorf or Trinnov and you have a TRUE reference level system that will play anything and everything for under $50K. If you are a two channel purist take the $20K processor budget and split it, $10K (or less) for a flagship processor from Marantz, Anthem, or Mcintosh and $10K for a great 2 channel preamp (tubes, solid state, whatever). There are 2 channel preamps with home theater bypass that will slide right in. | ||
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If you are building an Atmos setup from scratch consider ACTIVE speakers and all you need is a processor and some XLR interconnects to get started. Save money and rack space on amps and speaker wire: When you consider that these active speakers are internally biamped you are getting 11 speakers with not 11 channels of amplification, its 22 channels of amplification (plus TWO subs).
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