You may be sure, but I think most others would find it to be a equivalency that is not false. It illustrated the difference between factually different, and detectable by human alone different, which is the argument on any cable directionality discussion. I would never take the position that all cables are not "directional" at a high enough frequency in a given system as there will always be a high enough frequency, for a given length, and a large enough signal to noise ratio that they will be directional. I take the position, that within the sphere of human detectable audio difference, they are not directional. As I have yet to see anyone measure a significant enough difference, factually illustrate how there could be a significant enough difference, or show, in reasonably controlled conditions, an audible difference (including ones I have ran), I have had no reason to change my position. If someone want to believe there is and plays around with it, I am not going to stop them, but I would point out that repeated removal and connections of wires is often a good cleaning process, and for interconnects, rotating the RCA can help with this as well.
Speaker cable arrows???
I bought a used pair of Silverline Audio's Conductor cables. Plugged them in
and was very pleased with the neutral sound I was getting. Bare wire to the
speakers, and bananas on the amp end. Then I realized that the arrows on
the cables where pointing towards the amp. OOPS, I reversed the path
direction, and couldn't hear any difference. Zero.
My preference would be to have the bananas on the amp end.
Can I disobey the arrows, and run the cables effectively backwards?
and was very pleased with the neutral sound I was getting. Bare wire to the
speakers, and bananas on the amp end. Then I realized that the arrows on
the cables where pointing towards the amp. OOPS, I reversed the path
direction, and couldn't hear any difference. Zero.
My preference would be to have the bananas on the amp end.
Can I disobey the arrows, and run the cables effectively backwards?
186 responses Add your response
So, you appear to take the position that you yourself don’t have to wait for test results for directionality. Controlled blind test or whatever, that it’s a foregone conclusion that directionality is not audible. That sounds about right. Your main arguments seem to be it’s your gut feeling and anyone who hears it must be crazy. You don’t even have to do any tests, tests are for the other guys, the naive schmucks. Not very scientific, but what the heck! 🤗 Nice manifesto! |
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@jea48 What's the point of linking back to this very thread? I have asked you twice to please explain to me how signal directionality happens or is possible in a passive cable. All you have done is ask me to re-read the yours and others opinions on the subject. As one of my Geology professors explained to me many years ago "if you can't explain it to someone else then you don't understand it yourself." |
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@jea48 Jim, I really do appreciate your thoughtful answer. I'm not the smartest guy in the world (you heard it here first) but I am pretty well educated in math, physics, chemistry and metallurgy. Every explanation I have heard of signal directionality in a low voltage passive cable has been marketing fluff. I'll use this for example, from Nordost: When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality.But wait, it gets better: Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, which has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors. In addition, the insulation material will change when it is subjected to an electrical field.[sound of me laughing hysterically] Quantum tunnelling. It's a real thing, but it's quantum mechanics and the theoretical potential barrier only occurs at the subatomic level. Doesn't affect wave propagation though normal materials, at least at temperatures and pressures you and I can survive at. I'm not trying to convince you and I know I shouldn't have responded to your or anyone's post about this. If you hear a difference I'm happy for you. I mean that seriously. I don't, and the math doesn't support the outcome you propose. But that doesn't affect your listening pleasure. Bill |
br3098 I’m not trying to convince you and I know I shouldn’t have responded to your or anyone’s post about this. If you hear a difference I’m happy for you. I mean that seriously. I don’t, and the math doesn’t support the outcome you propose. But that doesn’t affect your listening pleasure. >>>>What a nice guy! If you don’t hear it that’s the way it goes sometime. But it’s you and about five other dudes who don’t against 50,000 who do. Guess who wins? 🤗 |
heaudio123 Me thinks Nordost marketing people come to audio forums for inspiration ;-) >>>>>>Actually, Nordost is like you. They are agnostic when it comes to directionality. They must have the same “gut feeling“ you do. 😬 |
OK, so pulling the wire through the final die deforms the symmetrical metal crystals of the wire especially on the surface but also below the surface, probably all the way to the center of the wire. Then the metals crystals look like the quills on a porcupine’s back. So which way is easier to stroke the quills, against the grain or with the grain? It’s the same idea with the signal traveling down the wire, it wants to travel with the grain. When the signal travels against the grain it gets distorted. That’s why AudioQuest controls their cables for wire directionality AND polishes the surface of the conductors. Better safe than sorry! 😐 |
Apparently all you have to do is mention wire polishing and suddenly all the helmet polishers come out of the woodwork. djones51 After they pull wire it goes through annealing and recrystalization occurs. Controlled for direction is market speak. The current doesn’t care a whit which way the wire is oriented. >>>>>Speaking of pulling where did you pull that out of? |
I pulled it from how copper wire is manufactured. I know very little about it and this directional idea got me wondering as it made no sense to me. So I went and found out as much as I could on how they take copoer from the ore stage to the final wire that's drawn through the die and then on to annealing which isn't even the end of it but for this direction of crystals in wire it is. |
Uhmmmm, most copper wires for flexible cable is annealed, which does cause recrystalization and improves conductivity, but importantly also makes it softer and more workable (and less likely to break). Some copper wire is intentionally not annealed to make it more difficult to hold a bend and increase tensile strength. Really, this is not a debatable item. It is done day in and day out and is well understood. |
heaudio Uhmmmm, most copper wires for flexible cable is annealed, which does cause recrystalization and improves conductivity, but importantly also makes it softer and more workable (and less likely to break). Some copper wire is intentionally not annealed to make it more difficult to hold a bend and increase tensile strength. Really, this is not a debatable item. It is done day in and day out and is well understood. >>>>Look 👀 You don’t have to be a genius to figure out that stretching metal or hammering it further deforms what is originally a symmetrical crystal structure. You do know metals are crystals, right? In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality. 🔛 Follow? Sometimes when your posts are written so authoritatively I almost believe you really are an authority. 🤗 |
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Not a meltdown at all Geoffkait just antimythological. Some of us believe an incredible amount of pure fallacy. Some of us use fallacy to steal other people's money. Actually too many of us do that. Sometimes I have to stop and ask myself if that is what I am doing. I think it is built into our programming. In your case I don't think this is the problem. |
"In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality."Primarily maybe, only not. Which makes the explanation not quite strong. Sometimes, your posts are written so authoritatively that I have to look for the word that explains them differently. |
This is an apples and oranges thing. This is a digital signal with very fast edge speeds, using RCA jacks. RCA jacks are not impedance controlled, and we have no idea whether any attempt at edge speed control (or termination) was implemented on the transmitting end to reduce reflection due to edge speeds that could have GHz components, unlike the 20Khz (ish) for analog audio. Al, (almarg), pointed out some where in the article, or a foot note, there is a follow up saying the directionality was due to the differences in the amount of solder used on one RCA connector than the other. Was it the solder? Beats me.... I remember that Stereophile article, and skimming it, remember some glaring errors, like claiming the DTI magically improves the jitter from the DAT deck, a conclusion that cannot be reached, because all the previous tests with the jitter tester showed, is that the jitter with the DAT and the jitter tester was high, which could (and most likely is) an incompatibility between the DAT and the jitter tester (including the cable), not necessarily high jitter in the DAT itself. Low driver level on the DAT output (possibly to be compatible with something else), and a high threshold voltage on the input logic of the jitter tester could have made it overly sensitive to reflections on the cable, which seems sort of self-evident given the significant difference in jitter by changing direction. Definitely some bad stuff going on there, at very high edge rates with non impedance controlled connections (hence the reason to move to BNC). |
glupson4,808 posts05-13-2020 1:37pm "In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality."Primarily maybe, only not. Which makes the explanation not quite strong. Sometimes, your posts are written so authoritatively that I have to look for the word that explains them differently. >>>>That’s because you’re a mental defective. 😳 |
Time's up?🕰 It's going down the toilet?🚽 Put it to bed?🛌 This thread is no different than the mountain🗻 of threads that came before it and will come after it regarding directionality. Practically every response can be replaced with: "Is not!" "Is too!" No one changes anyone's mind, the same guys snipe at each other, and you inevitably break out those terrific little icons.... I'm not got doggin' ya!🌭 Gotta go, time for a cup of☕. |
Time's up?🕰+1 All the best,Nonoise |
when I got my first stereo I wish the seller had been less concerned with ensuring that the cable was put in the right way (and I was forever after terrified of putting it the wrong way incase I bust my system!) and more concerned with perhaps letting me listen to several pairs of speakers, ie the things that would entirely change the sound I was presented with. |
Jea48? Thank you! The thread you referenced earlier was absolutely on point! Herman and Kijanki both expound precisely with "correct" information to help explain doubts about this subject matter. And further they accomplish this in a way that I think most here can understand. Nsgarch, Almarg and also yourself, also add to this nicely rounded thread. I would highly recommend that anyone here with any doubt or question on this subject? Please reference that thread before continuing here on this one; https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/directional-cables |
While there is good information in that thread, maybe a few posts, most of it is a disaster, and pretty much none of it matters at audio bandwidths. Transmission line effects are not relevant at audio bandwidths and cable lengths except poorly matched digital cables and connections. Bulk effects would be far more relevant and there would need to be directional differences large enough to make a difference. There are many reasons cables can be directional and that thread only covers one really, but huuuge difference between reasons and MFG differences large enough to have any potential ability to be audible. |
Install them in whichever direction they sound best to you. Personally, I always start by following the arrows on the jacket, but having violated that many times, and in the majority of those cases without any noticeable difference, it's not something to be obsessive about in my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions, they are like rear ends, everybody's got one. |
when I bought my B&W powered subwoofer I paid extra for the special audiot ( or is that audiophool) nano-ceramic cross-linking polymer subwoofer signal cable with which to connect the preamp output to the line level input on the sub. And I'm pretty sure it's directional since it has little arrows on it. But not having noticed the little arrows at first I inadvertently installed it in the wrong direction.After listening for a week I noticed that the little arrows were pointing at the preamp. My common sense notwithstanding I moved the whole system away from the wall in order to re-orient the cable in the "correct" direction. This took quite a lot of time and energy given how obsessive-compulsive I am about connections and such. I even measure how far away the entertainment center is from the back wall at each end. No joke. Then made little marks on the floor in order to facilitate re-positioning without re-measuring. Finally, I sat down and listened to my newly re-oriented low frequencies. My heart sank as I failed to notice the "night and day" difference that any true audiophile would have. But at least I can be sure my preamp is no longer straining to force the signal into and thru the cable in the wrong direction. And my sub no longer has to suck the unwilling signal out the other end. I made up a new word here. "audiot". How do you guys like it? |
The electricity that makes speaker drivers in and out is not like water in a faucet. It pushes the speaker out and pulls it in. It does this by alternating the current back and forth at the frequencies of the music. Directional speaker wires are pure hokum. Avoid dealers who tell you otherwise, unless you still use a green Magic Marker on your CD edges. If that is the case, Please contact me for my special CBD oil rubbed speaker wire. |