What kalali said, +1.
Soundstage, layering and tube differences
Within tube types, say el34’s, can anyone explain why one brand of tube like SED C’s have deep layered soundstaging and another, such as the Mullard reissue el34’s ,are more 2D? I just replaced my 10 year old SED’s with the Mullards ( which still need burn-in), but they are not nearly as 3D in my amps and are reported to be such.
Do some tubes resolve the actual recorded room acoustics better or is it a matter of harmonic distortion giving the illusion of soundstaging and 3 dimensionality??
Do some tubes resolve the actual recorded room acoustics better or is it a matter of harmonic distortion giving the illusion of soundstaging and 3 dimensionality??
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"Tubes need zero burn-in...zero." ???? Don’t know your opinion of Brent Jessee (one of the most respected names in NOS tubes), but- here are just a few sentences (verbatim), from a letter that he includes, when you receive tubes purchased from him: "New tubes need a break-in period before they can exhibit their true sonic character when used in audio circuits. Preamp tubes especially benefit from a good break-in. This period may vary widely, but NOS vintage tubes usually need at least 48 hours of use, sometimes up to 100 hours. New current production tubes need 24-48 hours typically. Good break-in can be accomplished by either leaving your tube unit turned on for 2 days in a no signal condition, or you can just enjoy the tubes for several hours each evening and they will be broken in after several weeks." An opinion from another highly regarded (personally, at least) source: https://tctubes.com/power-tube-testing.aspx Upscale burns theirs in for 72 hours, before testing: https://upscaleaudio.com/pages/test-equipment interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=jwmDf5bSRMQ |
you call burn in whatever you want Well said. |
you call burn in whatever you want any electrical device, connection, circuit, will ’settle in’ over some time...whether it is seconds, minutes, hours, days... it has to do with physics of matter, electrical flow, heat/heat dissipation w.r.t. tubes, they definitely have different sonic characteristics (frequency, amplitude, and phase differences)... not to mention your equipment interacting with the tube (driver and buffer circuits, components within those circuits), transformers, power supplies... each design/component operates as a system... nothing works in isolation |
Tubes need zero burn-in...zero.Whether they need it or not, there is always an exception to the rule. My new Psvane 6SN7 Globes absolutely needed at least 20 hours to go from bright and scratchy to trasparent and holophonic. Further my 4 pairs of new Shuguang Black 12AX7LS were unremarkable until they opened up after 10-20 hours. |
Do some tubes resolve the actual recorded room acoustics better or is it a matter of harmonic distortion giving the illusion of soundstaging and 3 dimensionality??Yes. They are lower distortion, sometimes due to geometry being a bit lower distortion on account of how the electrons flow within the tube, the amount of actual vacuum, how consistent the cathode coating is, stuff like that. If you like how well EL34s do, triodes can do it even better as they are more linear. |
,are more 2D? I just replaced my 10 year old SED’s with the Mullards ( which still need burn-in), but they are not nearly as 3D in my amps and are reported to be such. Yeah there is alot of hype around power tubes. I can tell you one thing, fair, the 6550 Svetlana is perhaps the best all around power tube ever made. Very close is obviously the twin brother to the 6550 , the KT88. , KT90’s are close, thats it,, I do not think 120’s, 150’s match the previous 3 in midrange acoustics. EL34, kt66,77 can not compete with the 6550/kt88. russia makes the most reliable 6550/88’s. |
My theory about soundstage is if the musical recording does indeed include the soundstage "information", then any component in the audio chain - tubes, cables, source gear, amp, preamp, etc., etc., as well as room acoustics and speaker placement, can and will contribute to rendering that information. If everything is the same and a change in the tube brand renders a more realistic soundstage, then one could surmise that it's the tube that is delivering more of that information. Don't know if this qualifies as an answer but it's my opinion. |
jim, If you don't know the answer to your question, how will you know that anyone who answers really knows? Go figure. Anyway, the 'illusion from the harmonic distortion' is related to the difference between solid state devices which typically have odd order distortions and tube devices which have even order distortions. Some feel that even order distortions are additive and odd order distortions are subtractive. You can easily research this issue - it is talked about quite a bit. Individual tubes differ most audibly in tonal balance (but not exclusively), as do most of the other components in your system. Some are subtractive from the original source but none can be truly additive even if you like the sound better. The pits and grooves are absolute - its what you do with or to them that counts. |
Welcome to tube rolling! Yes, this is normal and indicative of differing tube quality and methods of construction. +1 for 6L6GTB can be sweeter and clearer than EL34. If you have some coin, tbere are some GEC KT66 available. https://www.tubedepot.com/products/kt66-gec BTW how did your termite tenting work out? |
Your observation about SED's vs Mullards IMHO falls right into the same observations that can be made about equipment in general. Stuff (including tubes) that have a 'full bottom end' more often than not obscures some of the information present in the high frequencies. SED's have a tendency to be a bit forward in the upper mids but are not bottom heavy so you can get better dimensionality when using them. The Mullards probably are a bit 'warmer' than the SED's therefor the differences in imaging that you have noticed. Of the three new(er) EL34 production type tubes I enjoy more often than not would be the JJ E34L or NOS Tesla E34L (their predecessor). FWIW, a tube I often use in lieu of a SED EL34 is the SED 6l6gc. A very linear tube (if that suits your needs) emphasizing neither the bass nor upper mid range emphasis of the other tubes you are using. The bad news - SED's have been discontinued as a new production tube. |
