Can you readily identify a 300B, 2A3, 805, 211, etc., amp’s sound with your eyes closed most of the time?
If so, I’sure would like to hear from you.
Amplifier design and the technology utilized within its confines decides the ‘voice’ or influence it will yield as much or more so than merely the output tubes the designer has chosen to use.
I get that part emphatically. One must hear the amp regardless the type of output tube technology on hand.
And yes, some Pentodes and Tetrodes are used as Triodes but are not indeed triodes by their specific architecture. That’s OK, just focus on their use as Triodes herein, please.
There are however certain tube types, irrespective of vintage which have basic undeniable sonic colors or characteristics, apart from their electrical aspects which keep attracting people to amps which use this or that tube in its output stage.
Some love 211s. some adore 300Bs. Some love EL34s configured to run as Triodes. I have an affinity for the latter. So far anyway. This topic could change my mind.
Has your own experience informed you what this or that output tube’s natural flavor regularly announces itself to be so you can have a reasonable expectation of its general presentation?
What sonic attribute continually attracts you to a particular SET tube design, 300B or some others?
Or, conversely, what is it about the sound that would bring you to covet a 211 amp over a 2A3, for example.
Why as another example, would you pick a 2A3 amp over one using 805s or 300B, 211, etc. or vice versa?
Removing ‘vintages’ and electronic or electrical qualities from the argument, what sonic attributes for the more popular S.E.T. amp output tubes have you determined seem to persist in their particular DNA?
I’m asking for input from those SET tube devotees to lend their experiences and knowledge on the subject of what tube sounds like what irrespective of the SET application, generally speaking.
My goal is to try getting a better feel for which SET Tube amp design, if any, I’d want to pursue and possibly invest heavily into going forward as the soul of a new system.
Thor TPA 30s. Great, great amps. First Watt M2 smooth and warm. Neither had enough omph when at times.
Then an I got some TRL Samson monoblock amps and things just opened up with no more sense of tentative or nervous sound. These were 200 watt SS monoblock amps that are spectacular. Little known gems.
Think I recall this rightly, but it has been some time now.
I own the Coincident Super Victory IIs, which are a little less efficient (92.5dB) that the Total Victorys. I never really got the Supers to sing with the Coincident Frankensteins. I decided to give Atmasphere M-60s a try, and I am extremely pleased with the combo. They have been in service for about 6 months now, and I have no inclination to reinstall the Franks. My room is not large, 19 x 15 x 8. The Franks just couldn't do it in that room with those speakers, and as Ralph has pointed out, distortion got high enough to really be objectionable with any volume at all. I was very patient with trying to get the Franks to work with the Super Victorys, having found that they were just sublime with my Coincident Triumph Extreme II monitors. Especially with the Elrog 300Bs (don't get me started). I have heard the Franks drive the 94dB PRE's, and I did not sense that the Franks were struggling at all with the PREs. Charles loves the Total Victory/Frankinstein duo, Bill not so much. I almost think one is going to have to A/B to choose between an SET and an OTL.
You had the Coincident Total Victory II(TV) and I have the Total Eclise II. Although the TV is rated as 97 db sensitive and the TE 94db people familiar with both say the TE is actually easier to drive. Could be the simpler design and crossover and the 14 ohm impedance.
I have driven my TE with three amplifiers
100 watt PP 6550/KT 88 tube
40 watt PP el 34
8 watt 300b SET
The 100 watt amplifier has more bass weight and impact driving the TE.
All three of these amplifiers sound "really" good with these speakers.
Overall the SET is the best of this fine group.
Tone, timbre harmonic overtones, openness, transparency, tactile presence, 3 dimensional presentation, nuance and sheer emotional connection. I could go on but I believe you see my point. I’ve have this combination for 8 ears and if anything the SET impresses me more as time passes. It has a naturalness and purity of sound the two fine PP amps can’t equal.
What the SET excels at are the qualities that matter most to me. I understand the desire others here express for power. Do what pleases you and makes you happy. Head to head comparisons in my system the 8 watt 300b SET is superior in music reproduction over my 100 watt PP amplifier.
As has been said before low power SETs are not for everyone and I agree with this observation. No type of amplifier will do everything flawlessly so we choose our compromises.
When I consider all the musical and sonic parameters that are crucial for my enjoyment the 8 watt SET has been superior in my system. For others perhaps not. For point of reference I prefer both of my PP tube amps over my prior Symphonic Line transistor amplifier.
It's so good to see you posting again as I always appreciate your insight. I do believe that the Total Eclipse and your Triumph are easier to drive than your SV II speakers. I'll admit that you listen to more demanding music more often than I do as another factor. I'm a jazz guy and you're classical. I very happy to read that the Atma-Sphere mono blocks are just a better fit for your needs. The Frankenste in and TE
Charles, no doubt your speakers are much easier to drive then my old TVll's. Your speakers do not show up used very often, if at all. I used to look for them a couple of years ago.
Bill, Yes, you may see a pair of the Total Eclipse for sale once in a blue moon. Your TV II were a complex design relatively speaking. 4 way, 3 crossovers, 9 drivers( mixture of brands as well) I believe including ribbon tweeter.
In contrast the TE was a simpler 3 way with minimalist crossover, 5 drivers (all Scanspeak) just fewer parts and more straight forward. Really two different concepts in a sense. There’s only a single capacitor at the tweeter and no resistor at that site.I replaced the stock Solens with the Duelund CAST (that you recommended years ago, thanks 😊). Just beautiful sound. Charles
Having just getting a custom SET - DHT preamplifier the Russian 4P1L Tube used for amplifiers as well as preamplifier is considered by many possible The most linear tube . Granted it can be microphonic if not built properly but Radu Tarts has built many pieces of gear. My preamp has 0 coupling caps Lundahl Transformers snd chokes and only Munfotf 4pole csps snd bypassed Khozmo relay based shunt volume . This SET preamp is the best I have had and I have owned many $$ well respected models .which gave several gain stages. SET amps,and preamp only have one amplified stage then output That's It !! You will hear what's on the recording . With the Amplifier low power is the only limitation ,the preamp has no dynamic limitations $2-5k is the average for a custom built preamp.
Bill (Brownsfan) Your experiences written about above are an illustrative example of amplifier and speaker matching. The Coincident Frankenstein was "sublime " driving your Triumph Extreme speakers. This indicates that the Triumph Extreme and the Total Eclipse have very similar speaker load characteristics. You said the Frankenstein didn’t struggle at all driving the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme (so again presumably similar load characteristics).
The Super Victory II it seems is a more challenging load and obviously benefits by matching the higher power Atma-Sphere MP 60s. Have you tried the M 60s with the easier load Triumph Extremes?
I’m assuming that the M 60s and the Coincident Statement Line Stage are getting along just fine. I did the reverse, I heard my Frankenstein with the Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamplifier. It was a wonderful combination. P.S. I hope you’re still enjoying the Tennessee mountains and hiking trails 😊 Charles
Charles, your comment is spot on. My preference for the M-60s in my application is by no means any kind of dis on the Franks. They are just not the right amps for the Super Victory IIs. I have not tried the TEs with the M-60s. Doing an A/B using the Franks and the M-60's to drive the TEs would be an interesting experiment. The M-60s and the CSL pre are doing just fine together. Ralph urged me to keep my speaker cables short, which means the CSL is driving a 5M pair of balanced ICs. I am not sure I have everything optimized quite yet, but inserting the M-60s into the upstairs rig was a large step forward. Eventually, the Franks will go into the downstairs system. The hiking is going very well. July was really hot, so I backed off quite a bit, but even so I have about 550 miles in for the year so far. I should hit 1000 for the year.
Hi Bill, Your fitness level I suspect has increased quite a bit since your move to the Volunteer state and that's good.
When you have time to compare the two excellent amplifiers driving the Triumphs let me know your thoughts. I compared the Frankenstein with a friend's Atma-Sphere MA-1 amplifiers on his easy to drive speakers a few years ago. It was much fun. Charles
The sound of the 845 is wonderful. The 300B's also sound good, not quite as good. Not a big fan of the 211. Thin sounding to my ears. The 6C33's not good for that application. The GM 70's are really forceful and full sounding as well. They all sound different to me.
Stfoth, Newbie or not you're correct. It has been my experience that you simply cannot categorize tubes in that manner, sorry but there are too many variables to factor in. Any of the output tubes mentioned can sound glorious or uninspiring depending on the design, builder talent and implementation. People will have their particular favorites but over generalizing is inaccurate. Charles
@charles1dad FWIW, the Coincidents we had here at the shop were Total Eclipses- they had five drivers- two side firing woofers, two midranges and a single ribbon tweeter.
The 6C33 can sound excellent and despite bing indirectly heated can easily keep up with any DHT. It is as charles1dad says immediately above. The disadvantage with the 6C33 is that the tube eats tube sockets and there is nothing for it; the socket(s) simply have to be replaced after a time.
Ralph, One minor correction to your post above. Yes I have those Total Eclipse speakers that you described however it uses the Scanspeak revelator soft some tweeter rather than a ribbon.
The Total Victory is the speaker model that used the ribbon. Coincident had two separate speaker lined, the Victory and the Eclipse Charles
Having owned most amplifier types many versions and at least 50 SET amplifiers and integrates as well as designing collecting restoring loudspeakers I may have a wee bit of a opinion. And as others stated more eloquently than I much of SET differences comes down to the overall build quality and design of the amplifiers. I do have a few preferences and some of it comes down to practicality. For SET I mostly am buying 300b amplifiers and its not necessary because they best other types but mostly do to them having a good balance of power and SET quality's. With 300b I can drive a larger verity of loudspeaker though I have found from running many types of loudspeaker that synergy exists between SET or other lower power amps and horns. I do think that many running horns are doing the horn equivalent of dipping a toe in the pool but the more horn loaded the better. I have also had good luck biamping running other SET types or designing a loudspeaker just for the amp I selected but I do understand most can not or will not consider that option.
Johnk > “… much of SET differences comes down to the overall build quality and design of the amplifiers. “ ….synergy exists between SET or other lower power amps and horns. I do think that many running horns are doing the horn equivalent of dipping a toe in the pool … the more horn loaded the better.”
Blindjim > thanks. I think we enjoy the same ideal here and it is why I’ve chosen to put my advance onto the SET oriented system will remain at least for now, an aside. Secondary.
In my world, I presently have no significant other to opine, or appease. What ever the choice is solely my own with regard to ‘ANY ‘project.
Partly from not being convinced that SET topology despite the particular approach, will formidly satisfy my designs on my musical preffs en masse. I could be quite wrong given I’ve not had the experiences here of others or yourself.
I’m simply hard pressed to accept the fact a Triode amp even with nice horns will kick out the jams quite like amps I have become accustomed to hearing with far more horsepower and point source speakers of standard varieties, within the confines of my home.
Sure I see horns at live music events. I do get their contributions to sound. If a very nice horn system cuold be had for $5K to $10K, and not the $23 to $4K prices I'm seeing out there, this would be lots easier.
This is not to say I’m a metal head freak or stone Rock & roller. Not at all. I do however enjoy a large slice of that facet. Indeed, with a propensity to large bands, rock jazz or blues, only 60 watt amps and above … well above… have been my lot and have IMO, been successful on their own levels.
Consequently, in order for me to have a system which encompasses all of the musical genres needs with less opportunity for mitigation or compromise, has to reamin my approach.
It was adeptly put, I’m only willing to put a toe or two into the water in facing down the triode contingent. I believe the best possible way to proceed would be as a few here have said pointedly, look into horns. I’ve been given much input on that singular note too. And I must agree. Horns would be the pathway to likely eliminate about half of the issues, and broaden the choices for SET amps to follow.
Sadly, I’m more than a little stayed, conservative, or main streamed to put $25K or the like into where it ought to be as with horns on pure speculation…. … at the moment.
Deeper soul searching tells me as well, were I not quite so grandiose the chances for two perhaps lesser established albeit quite adequate sounding arrays could be had, rather than one subjectively put, outstanding affair.
Ya eat the ‘blue’ pill or the ‘red’ pill. Ya can’t always eat ‘em both and be equally satisfied.
Still… something may soon arise that allows the herd to be culled, and a choice one cut out.
I’m simply hard pressed to accept the fact a Triode amp even with nice
horns will kick out the jams quite like amps I have become accustomed
to hearing with far more horsepower and point source speakers of
standard varieties, within the confines of my home.
I play our M-60s at home and they are triode amps. The speakers I use employ horns as well. As far as kicking out the jams: the speakers go down to 20 Hz and are 98 db and 16 ohms. I can literally shake the walls with bass that can be felt. That last bit of the bottom octave is one way you separate the men from the boys.
I played in orchestras from junior high all the way post-college. These days I play in a space rock band. That experience has made me a bit hard to please and I like to kick out the jams very much!
I think you will find if others respond, that horns and triodes are quite capable of bringing home the bacon! When I go to friend's houses and also when I go to shows, most systems come off to me as 'small and just little' because the images are tiny and the systems can't play bass, dynamic range or impact in the way that I have become accustomed.
I heard the same set up at Axpona 2 years ago and it was as close to a live event as I have heard. I could feel the bass and while it was very, very loud, I could listen easily due to the lack of distortion. Classic Audio speakers and Atma-sphere M60s.
Why do you feel buying into SET horn systems takes so much $? Most anytime I look about high quality SET amps or integrated amps are available used in the 2-4k range. Altec JBL or other horn systems about 2k-up. I could see about 5k to try out a system and if you like it upgrade from that. Most Altecs etc are easy to sell for what one paid if you buy smart. Sell the toe dipper move on up till you find what you like. And trust me a big horn systems are unbeatable in a home for SPL low distortions and massive dynamics no mater how much power you feed into a dynamic designs melting coils. The effortless sound makes many dynamic based systems sound dull lifeless forced and boring.
I agree. There is nothing like a good horn system for effortless sound and incredible dynamics (even at low overall volume level). Also, most of what is available is quite old and so prices and resale value are stable, or in some cases, resale value is rising. Your advice on how to go about tasting horn systems is very good.
The only caveat that I would add is that one should not judge the entire category of horn-based system on any one particular version. I have heard MANY fans of horn systems say that stayed away for so long because their early exposure was to Klipschorns or something else that they did not like.
The bad news is that, once hooked, the really nice stuff gets as pricey as high end modern stuff. I spent a lot of this past Saturday listening to a horn system that is in the process of being voiced and the bugs worked out. It uses a Western Electric 713a driver, 32 horn, a Jensen RP 302 tweeter, and a Jensen M18 18" fieldcoil woofer. The bass-to-midrange crossover is a vintage Western Electric crossover and the internal wiring is Audio Note Sogon and SPx. It is an open-baffle system. The clarity, dynamics and scale of this system is amazing. The amps that I heard with this speaker were Western Electric 124s, but, I bet even a small SET amp would find this speaker to be easy to drive. A lot of fun hearing the system even though I probably could not afford them nor do I have the space for this giant.
Atmosphere > I think you will find if others respond, that horns and triodes are quite capable of bringing home the bacon!
Swampwalker > horns and triodes are quite capable of bringing home the bacon!
Grannyring > I heard the same set up at Axpona 2 years ago and it was as close to a live event as I have heard.
Blindjim > Atmosphere, Swampwalker, Grannyring, you guys are great. Really super. It is obvious I’m missing the one item necessary for me to fully understand your advice, experiences and information, as I’m basing my entire thinking on one incredible listening experience to a pair of 30wpc Thor monos on some VSA VR4 JR 89db spkrs playing Dianah Krall off of a Shanlin tube CDP.
Beyond that all on my part is sheer speculation as to what SET amps can and can not do., with horns or with high eff cone speakers..
How well do they play stuff like Brian Setzer, Gordon Goodwin, Basie, big band blues, multi piece bands in general?
This begs the point then, exactly what musical genre is not served well by SET amps and High Eff speakers, if any?
Please, pardon my ignorance, but not having heard the aforementioned playing any of those cuts, I simply don’t know but felt it was not something sET’s were cut out to do.
Johnk > Why do you feel buying into SET horn systems takes so much $? Most anytime I look about high quality SET amps or integrated amps are available used in the 2-4k range. Altec JBL or other horn systems about 2k-up.
Blindjim > Johnk thanks a lot. Its pretty simple I’ve not the exp to know what to look at or for, and as such felt the need to go with only exceptionally well regarded and popular items, and many of them I’ve read about are quite expensive on both sides of the coin. Amps and transducers.
Add in to that no EXP on the SET + Horns front, and the opportunity to make a significantly poor and possibly very costly choice or choices is high.
I hope that might help clear up one or two things that continually concern me.
From experience I would like to give you another horn speaker option and that is the Bob Crites Cornscala.These are available as a kit or fully built for about 2k.I helped a friend put a set together about 8 yrs ago and 2yrs ago I helped him again do some updating to the crossover components. Now his complete system has better gear than what he first started with which was just a Integra receiver.
I always thought they sounded pretty darn good for the money and could be paired with a Set or PP amp.You do need to be at least 15ft away or more to get the most Coherent sound.
I liked them so much I almost got a pair for myself but at that time I went in another direction and went down the full range driver road.
Our new smaller house has a smaller listening area and I set 10ft away from my speakers and the Tekton DI's are a much better choice for me know.
How well do they play stuff like Brian Setzer, Gordon Goodwin, Basie, big band blues, multi piece bands in general?
This begs the point then, exactly what musical genre is not served well by SET amps and High Eff speakers, if any?
Amps and loudspeakers don't have taste in musical genres! I wouldn't worry about that. Amps and speakers treat all music as electrical signals. There literally is no amp and no speaker that is particularly better at a specific musical genre. Seriously.
I have always felt that really good amps, regardless of type, sound great at low volume levels and you really don't have to crank up the volume to get the juices flowing. A good SET amp will be satisfying at a much lower volume level compared to most solid state amps. The same is true with good pushpull and OTL amps. But, if you are someone who loves to play music at really high volume, a SET may not be your first choice. So, they are often not thought of as being well-suited for loud rock music.
From my own experience, I think SET amps work well with all kinds of music. The only kind of music where I really wished my SET would deliver more power involved large choral pieces without any kind of instrumental accompaniment (e.g., Rachmaninov's "Vespers"). For some reason, this sort of music is a challenge even when the overall volume is not that high (voices become muddy and the swell in volume is compressed).
My HO (Dennis Had "Inspire" Fire Bottle SEP HO, or High Output) has seen various tubes in the recent few months as it uses only 4 of them (great for rolling), and my most recent new issue Tung Sol 6SN7GTB rates only a "meh" although it does look cool. Back in went the supplied Amperex 6SN7GTB which imparts clarity in the treble which the Tung Sol doesn’t so much. It’s also interesting how much influence the rectifier tubes have on the HO…my current fave being a Shuguang 274B, and although it sounds very similar to a new Gold Lion GZ34/U77 (!), the 274B just looks cooler so it earns its place due to esthetics in the HO (also Gold Lion KT88s won out over KT77s and whatever else I had around here to try). Differences…YUGE.
kdude66 > Bob Crites Cornscala.These are available as a kit or fully built for about 2k
blindjim > many thanks. I think I read about these particular speakers. Iowa? The LP at A 15ft LP might be an issue going forward, right now it certainly is a problem.
Atmosphere > Amps and loudspeakers don't have taste in musical genres! I wouldn't worry about that
Blindjim > Thanks Ralph. I could not figure another way to say it.
Naturally, appliances do not have ‘prefferences’ towards music. My inference was a bit deeper in context and I obviously did not convey things with greater clarity. My bad.
I’ve noticed some systems do much better jobs at reproducing music than do others. Of course. Complicated multi instrument cuts as well are done better by some amps than by other amps. Same for loudspeakers. Things like resolution, individual instrument distinction. Sure, my iphone can playback Illinois Jacquette’s album Jacquette’s Got it that he did with 17 other Harvard musical students back in the 1980s, but it is mostly just noise and only familiarity with the album enables me to half way enjoy it via that means.
As I’ve said previously I need to get out and hear SET + High Eff or Horns handling the kinds of music I prefer to really and or fully understand member’s points being . submitted.
Larryi > I have always felt that really good amps, regardless of type, sound great at low volume
Blindjim > I tend to agree. My normal levels are where you would need to turn it down some to comfortably talk to your guest sitting in the same room. Not that the sound is loud or at higher levels, but where casual conversation won’t be attempted to often.
I measured this once with an all tube power train and Silverline Sonata IIIs @ 93db. I believe the meter was set to catch average peaks as it wasn’t jumpin’ all over the place constantly.
From the LP, At 90 -92db as I recollect it was pretty loud though not at all painful. It was as well, an abnormal listening level for myself.
At 93 – 95db it was not a level I’d often run for more than a song or two. Maybe.
All of this in a room 14 x 20 x 9.5ft. closed off by doors to other rooms or halls.
I could be off though that feels accurate.
wolf_garcia > HO (Dennis Had "Inspire" Fire Bottle SEP HO, or High Output) has seen various tubes in the recent few months as it uses only 4 of them (
blindjim > Wolf, I’ve looked online for Dennis, and or these amps, even a HP amp, couldn’t come up with anything worthwhile.
It would be great as was just said to get into this past time on the cheaper front, to get some practical working knowledge. That is IMHO, the huge integral missing link here For me.
Hearing of some combinations that have worked for others would be nice beyond those previously mentioned using Coincident speakers by Charles and or Grandering. I’ve noted and set those aside already.
Blindjim > I’ll look into that or them. Thank you.
Which amps did you or another use with these loudspeakers?
I’m wondering too, what value they might have on the ‘used’ market? Can’t recall ever seeing them there.
Audio Art used to be one company that made several sorts of Triode amps. Don’t see them around much any more.
Having ideas on what amps worked well with what horns or High Eff speakers again, would be great, if anyone wanted to input their exp on that note here.
Blindjim…there’s an interesting Youtube video of Had talking about his amps with a little tour of his shop, and a several hundred page discussion of his "post Cary Audio" builds on Audioaficianado.org. He sells his stuff exclusively on Ebay (or you can order things directly from him by contacting him through his Ebay address, although he’s pretty busy so good luck with that..) although he does build headphone amps sold through Moon Audio (recently positively reviewed by Absolute Sound). You also can look up his sales history on Ebay to see what he’s sold recently. Otherwise he’s a small potato in the current audio geek component manufacturing scene (I assume, having no idea how many amps for example Atmosphere sells) , but I personally think his amps are an utter bargain in the world of hand made sonic excellence…Shindo Schmindo!
I have always felt that really good amps, regardless of type, sound great at low volume levels and you really don’t have to crank up the volume to get the juices flowing. A good SET amp will be satisfying at a much lower volume level compared to most solid state amps. The same is true with good pushpull and OTL amps. But, if you are someone who loves to play music at really high volume, a SET may not be your first choice. So, they are often not thought of as being well-suited for loud rock music.
From my own experience, I think SET amps work well with all kinds of music. The only kind of music where I really wished my SET would deliver more power involved large choral pieces without any kind of instrumental accompaniment (e.g., Rachmaninov’s "Vespers"). For some reason, this sort of music is a challenge even when the overall volume is not that high (voices become muddy and the swell in volume is compressed).
I think your experience with SETs and large choral pieces says more about the amplifier and possibly the speakers.
In my comments below, I want to eliminate single driver systems (e.g. Lowther, Fostex, etc.) from this conversation. Single driver systems can flatter small, intimate works, but they get confused when listening to musically dense works (opera, massed chorals, large symphonic, etc.) . In my experience, this can get to the point where you stop listening to this part of your record collection.
I’d like to talk to this low level-listening phenomenon from a system building perspective. One of low power SET amplifiers’ drawbacks is also one of their virtues - that they work best with high efficiency speakers. Of course, this is a virtue that can be exploited by higher power amplifiers as well.
High efficiency speakers (especially horns) in general, have a lower noise floor which contributes to their high resolution at low listening levels, to the point where the experience can be spooky in comparison with your run of the mill, 5-figure, cone and dome system powered by an arc welder. Many electrostats do this as well, but for different reasons.
High efficiency can also benefit high SPL performance as well (ask any pro-sound guy).
Low efficiency means electrical energy is converted into heat, which in this case means the voice coil. This in turn, can affect the crossover, and no high-powered amplifier can compensate for this.
Of course, at the end of the day, preferences are in the context of the perceptual framework of the listener, but (anecdotally), I’ve never heard of someone going back to low efficiency speakers once they’ve had them. It’s a one-way door ;-)
Blindjim > although I’m not Larry, I want to thank you for the insights. I feel they are frank and as such valuable.
I get it now. The musical genre is not the issue to worry about with itty bitty powered rigs. Why I felt it was amazes me. Fine. .live and learn.
Thanks for the feedback on single driver speakers. I had summarily dismissed them already as a possible solution.
The overwhelming advice here says the ‘horns’ have it as the usual suspects for mating to triodes when feasible. Now, I’ve just gotta find those affordable horns and SET amp (s) to begin acquiring some EXP.
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