Some of the Worst Offenders in Bad Audio Forum Behavior Are Not Regular Forum Members
I've noticed first hand a disturbing trend over at Stereophile for the past couple of years that whenever someone knowledgeable challenges the mantra put forth by some of their editors, the Chief Editor, Mr. Atkinson, demands that the poster put forth personal information about themselves and any possible affiliations they may have with regard to employment that Mr. Atkinson might consider some kind of conflict of interest. Most notably, this occurred recently with a user named Archimago - a popular member of Computer Audiophile who extensively examined MQA, it's claims, and the claims made for it by Stereophile staff. Mr. Atkinson repeatedly challenged the author for his identity and professional affiliations - without which, he would disregard the message conveyed by said forum member. Mr. Atkinson has gone even further in other instances of which I personally witnessed first hand. He insists on banning from Stereophile's forum anyone whom he believes has a duty to publicly identify themselves without specifying the criteria behind the demand - other than that an industry affiliation might exist. I would encourage readers here to visit Computer Audiophile and search for Archimago /MQA discussions to see what I'm on about first hand.
The point of raising this is not necessarily to drag Mr. Atkinson through the mud but to highlight a key aspect of hypocrisy with respect to Mr. Atkinson's "policy" and how that relates to ALL online forums. Time and again, we're reminded in various forums when ideas are presented and challenged in a heated atmosphere - "FOCUS ON THE SUBJECT MATTER - NOT THE CREDENTIALS OR PERCEIVED FAILINGS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING HIS OR HER POINT". This in my view has always been good advice. When we "play the ball" and not "the man", it is much easier to maintain a civil exchange of ideas/experiences. So where does Mr. Atkinson's insistence on identifying qualifications of the person fit in to this concept? It seems that every time he or a staff member is personally challenged for facts, he resorts to this "policy" as a form of censorship. So basically what I"m saying here is that there's plenty of evidence that in some circles, the very people who should be encouraging us all to focus on the merits of the message - letting it stand or fall on its own without involving the supposed "credentials" of the messenger, - these people are in fact the worst offenders among us. Instead of setting a good example and sticking to it, they are doing the opposite while on occasion imploring the rest of us "regular members" to "do as I say - not as I do". I no longer participate in Stereophile forums because of this obvious cute form of censorship that has been employed. I hope that kind of thing never happens here on Audiogon. My guess, however, is that since Agon moderators aren't in the business of promoting/reviewing certain products that come along, that issue is not likely to present itself. In any case, how do you feel about the privacy rights of other forum members? Should everyone be required to put forth their real name and potential industry affiliation or should that only apply to people who appear to be trying to sell something other than knowledge in the course of posting?
I agree with you, cj1965. But, I think you have to realize that "Stereophile" is a business. A business that derives the bulk of its income from ads placed by high-end manufacturers. (That $12 a year subscription might barely cover the cost of mailing?)
Yes, traditional consumer audio is shrinking, but, that's been happening since the '80s as evidenced by the shuttering of all three of the mass-market audio magazines. That was years before the Worldwide Web debuted in 1993, so, home computers are not the sole cause. What really did audio 'in' was these inexpensive, great-sounding compact mini-rack/all-in-one systems that the big consumer giants introduced in the '80s. They thought teenagers would buy these and then upgrade to full-sized components as they got older. It didn't happen. When these things broke, they went out and bought another one for $300.
What also changed was leisure time: Americans now work more hours than they have since the end of WWII, so, the home stereo wasn't used as much as before. That's really why portable electronics, like mp3 players and smart phones became insanely popular.
At the same time, all the department stores closed their consumer electronics and recorded music sections, due to eroding margins.
So, that's mainly why affordable hi-fi has largely disappeared.
DIY Audio sounds like a lovely, open minded place to hang out. 🌹 🌷 🌺 Or get hung out, as the case may be.
It’s the most closed minded place I’ve ever had the displeasure of being a member of. I like DIYAudio and there are some terrific people there - but don’t ever go there to and try to look at something new.
One those things that happens when people have just enough knowledge and lore to not see the walls of the box their thinking is in. Where they somehow imagine that their limits are the same as everyone else’s and encompasses all things..and then they go full rabid textbook/biblical/ballistic --toward anything that is even remotely ’not yet fully understood.’
There are people there that do look at all the odd stuff that is not yet understood and do apply it to the gear they build, but they literally have to pussyfoot around the place and never mention it directly. If they do mention it directly, the literal minded cement heads evoke the textbook answers and start attacking mercilessly.
Since the cement heads outnumber the inquisitive and forward thinking, and that the cement heads bite and tear with no relenting or thoughts..the forum moderators have to side with the cement heads and the forward thinkers are the ones who are censured. So dense they routinely kill the dreamer without a shred of thought that they kill the very thing that makes humanity go forward, onward and upward.
Linear. Dense. Negative. Violent. Projecting. Not a clue.
Sound familiar?
For good reason, my tag line at DIYAudio, used to be:
"Only Dead Fish Swim With The Stream" -Malcolm Muggeridge
"So, that's mainly why affordable hi-fi has largely disappeared."
I'm seeing the opposite.
I live in Vegas, and the affordable Hi-Fi is thriving. I talk to friends from other US cities and they see it flourishing as well. I've purchased a lot of it since 2004 to test vs HEA (from the Tuning end) and these products are great and for sure on par with the HE sonically. The last 4 years especially, the mass guys have caught up with the HEA recommended components.
When you have $100.00-300.00 receivers, integrated amps and low mass specialty amps competing with HEA components it's pretty much game over. The only thing really holding HEA together is the Appeal of something High End itself, it's not the performance.
Like I've been saying (others too) folks need to enjoy the ride watching a new order taking place in real time and just let it happen. Also folks need to invest their time into tuning in their systems and recordings. HEA is cool, but it is mostly "was cool" now. The decline is not going to reverse itself. Harry & J Gordon are gone and the new writers don't have the same charisma as even 10 years ago. Also, I've had friends of mine who are HEA store owners and they have been exploring how to either make a conversion to what is happening in today's market or contemplating retiring. There will always be a High End chapter but trying to tie it to the mainstream market is fading, and almost faded.
Personally I think it's a good thing. More people are into fine listen than ever before, and they're doing it affordably. That's a good thing.
So Michael Green, a $300 Chinese mass produced receiver sounds as good as, say, Nelson Pass’s or Dan D’Agostino’s best work? I’m going to have to hear that to believe it. What $300 receiver are you referring to?
Most of us are not into high end gear because it’s cool. So we don’t care if cheap audio gear and "tuning" is the new cool.
I tune systems. I'm not really interested in going down the road you suggest I do. I like Nelson and I like Dan. I give a list of products I tune and have tuned on TuneLand.
I like all stereos and finding out what they offer in a tunable capacity. If you do look at TuneLand you will read listeners being more specific about head to head comparisons. here's an example
http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t415-lattis-system
Keep in mind please I'm not here to ruffle feathers, I'm here to show the people who want to learn more about tuning to do so, or visit with others who have been tuning.
I agree with the OP. Facts are facts. Who you are doesn't change that. If you have something worthwhile to share but don't want to reveal yourself then you've still shared something worthwhile. The best way to dismiss someone is to prove them wrong. Obviously Atkinson can't in these cases or that's what he would do.
That said, the only thing I reference Stereophile for are the measurements. At least I have to give them credit for not being 100% subjective.
@cj1965- this thread has certainly morphed. Your initial complaint was that JA at Stereophile unfairly discriminated against those with contrary views by demanding their credentials, rather than focusing on the merits of the comment about a particular piece of gear or technology. Now, your view seems to be that the high end is ridden with bling, fluff and unwarranted performance claims. But, aren't you painting with too broad a brush? I don't find my longtime use of an LP player to be an exercise in nostalgia, but the reflection of decades of investment in the format that I would be hard pressed to duplicate in digital for many reasons, not the least being the cost of equipment delivering arguably comparable performance, leaving aside the difficulty, if not impossibility, of finding these recordings other than on early, and now hard to find pressings. I'm not suggesting that one accept hyperbole, but few here do-- to the contrary, the best threads seem to focus on real world experience by a universe of users with no agenda other than sorting the wheat from the chaff. These are not credentialed reviewers, but people who put their own money into the various products and can speak with some authority about their experience. Wasn't that precisely what you were arguing for when you started this thread?
@whart I appreciate your comment and viewpoint however before completely side tracking the thread I would like to respectfully request that you start a new thread on turntables or add to a preexisting thread on that subject pertaining to nostalgia. My purpose in bringing up Fremer was to draw attention to the impact a trade magazine can have in light of comments that have downplayed its role or significance.
@cj1965- I wasn't focused on turntables either. I was addressing the crux issue--dismissing a point of view rather than dealing with it on the merits. And suggested that forum users here aren't gullible, and offer a viewpoint that is valid, despite lacking credentials-- the very thing you take JA and Stereophile to task for at the outset. But, as I pointed out, you have now broadened the scope of the thread to dismiss a lot of high end as bling or marketing based, among other things, on nostalgia. And in that context, I raised a valid point about the merits of turntables based on considerable experience. You now suggest i start another thread on that subject, but it really goes to the heart of your original point, doesn't it?
When you have $100.00-300.00 receivers, integrated amps and low mass specialty amps competing with HEA components it’s pretty much game over. The only thing really holding HEA together is the Appeal of something High End itself, it’s not the performance.
Like I’ve been saying (others too) folks need to enjoy the ride watching a new order taking place in real time and just let it happen. Also folks need to invest their time into tuning in their systems and recordings. HEA is cool, but it is mostly "was cool" now. The decline is not going to reverse itself.
Hi Michael, Just to be clear, I am not asking you to go down a path. You went down that path without any request from me. We don’t mind dealers promoting their products as long as they disclose that that is what they are doing and don’t engage in too much hyperbole. If they don’t do the first and do engage in the second, they should be called out. This is a forum for people pursuing better sound, not a place for advertisers to make outrageous claims.
I am sure that there are many benefits to your products and don’t mind you pitching them here, but please don’t get carried away with the opportunity for free advertising that this forum provides.
It should go without saying that some measurements have been retained over the years. I don't think I said ALL measurements were abandoned. The point, which I thought was obvious, was that there have never been measurements of cables and power conditioners- at least none that I have seen. If you know of such measurements, please post a link. Thanks.
"
Somewhere along the line, probably when test measurements were thrown
out the window and things like $3000 cables, $5000 "power conditioners",
and $50,000 amplifiers became "the norm" -cj1965
Translation: when $3000 cable sets and $5000 power conditioners appeared in "reviews" - around the same time that $50,000 amplifiers seemed to become a lot more common - test measurements (in reference to cables and power conditioners - not necessarily amps) were avoided. I didn't mean to confuse anyone but apparently I did. Sorry about that.
- "What test measurements were thrown out the window?"
With respect to cables and power conditioners - any/all - meaning the need for measurements was thrown out the window. It's a colloquial expression. Perhaps that explains your confusion about what I was trying to say.
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