Some of the better lyricists and musicians in rap and hiphop?
Going old school, I’ve always admired Chuck D’s powerful voice and his lauded expression and articulation in his delivery. Along those lines, Outkast’s voices and hooks are classic. And Nas’s lyrics are as good as anything ever released in the genre. You combine PE’s Nation of Millions with Nas’ Illmatic and sprinkle in some "Ms. Jackson" and you have the first 20 years of hiphop.
Nowadays Anderson .Paak delivers beautifully, as did Mac Miller (rip).
Please note the topic and add constructively to the conversation.
Even if you did, it really should not be a big deal.
I was just poking fun on what seemed to be a reaction to my post which was nothing but elongation of yours where neither of them had anything to do with the topic. Still, nice view from Sing Sing.
To reedem myself, and you before me, I offer a little bridge towards the topic...
@glupson. That’s a legitimate question. To answer more generally, it’s clearly been tempting for many of us to respond to provocation - I’m sure that I’m guilty as charged. But giving in to that temptation hasn’t yielded a very satisfying result.
I believe most of us are capable of something better. What do we collectively want this thread to be - a conversation between audiophiles who can respectfully agree to differ, or another descent into toxicity? I favor the former and will do my very best to behave accordingly. I hope that you and others feel the same way.
One of the problems, of course, with staying narrowly on topic, is that as @simao , @orpheus10 , @ghasley and others have helped to illustrate, it is not possible to fully understand the hard-core of the genre without context. And in the current ultra-PC environment, discussing black history, long-standing systemic racism, and life in inner city ghettos, is almost automatically considered to be "political".
So when those of us who have some familiarity with the context, and the value that it provides in helping to illuminate both the tone and lyrics of hard-core rap, come across ignorant comments, by which I mean those born of ignorance of the very context of which I speak, it is natural to want to attempt to explain.
No one is arguing that there is anything wrong with disliking rap, nor arguing the facts related to the topic. But exclaiming that "it isn’t music", or suggesting that it all sounds the same, or is all profane and misogynistic, is patent nonsense, and reveals far more about the person making such comments than the music itself.
In the early ’70s, I travelled with my father to Paris, and we went to the newly opened Centre Pompidou, which housed a modern art exhibition. One of, if not the principal artist whose work was being featured was Cy Twombly. I was outraged by it, not for political reasons, but because, as I later told my mother, who was an artist and teacher herself, it looked as if a child had scrunched up some graph paper, glued it to a canvas, then gripped a pencil in his/her fist, and scribbled indiscriminately. I could not understand how it might be considered "art", nor what might prevent anyone from "creating" something very similar.
She patiently tried to explain that, among other things, it is actually quite difficult for adult artists to "let go", and express themselves in a pure, child-like manner.
Well, I never warmed up to Twombly, but my mother’s ability to build some context did help me to appreciate the work of other artists more deeply, and especially that of Paul Klee, who remains among my favorites.
orpheus108,496 posts05-02-2021 6:46pm Builder, "Rap" comes from the "Ghetto". Do you know where that is? Do you know where the projects are?
Did you know that the majority of rappers came from the worst "hoods" in the USA where there is a high mortality rate from gun shots?
If you don’t like the "facts" surrounding "Rap", then quit discussing Rap and go to opera.
Yes. Yes. And yes. What I don’t like isn’t Rap, it’s your take on the "facts", which I think is patently false. Rap, and rappers have nothing to do with slavery, and for you to insert that into the mix is absurd. The advent of the modern welfare system and the ensuing decline of the traditional family has more bearing on socio-economic conditions, and thus rap, along with many other things, than any of your PC blurbs about slavery. As for the worst hoods in the USA, and the high mortality due to shootings, it needs to be addressed. Probably best to not hold your breath waiting for BLM to bring it up. Or Jesse, or Al. Or any of the corrupt politicians that have been in power in these cities for generations. All of the above, and many more besides, don’t care. They only care about more power and more wealth. The politicians will keep their heads down, and continue to preserve the status quo. None care about a solution.
I am losing hope that it is possible to enlighten people about rap as a wolrdwide phenomenon. Somehow, a poster, or two, has to make herself/himself feel righteous and smart by constantly bringing in the politics of one, relatively small, geographical location. Eventually, proclaiming that everyone who disagrees is a horrible person (in different words, though).
For example, the first recommendation in this thread...
"Claude M’Barali was born in Dakar, Senegal, to parents from Chad. When he was six months old, his parents emigrated to France where they settled in the Parisian suburbs; initially in Saint-Denis, subsequently Maisons-Alfort and finally Villeneuve-Saint-Georges. When he was twelve, he went to live with an uncle in Cairo, Egypt for nine months where he discovered the Zulu Nation and became fascinated with the rapping styles of Afrika Bambaataa Upon his return to France, he passed the baccalauréat. It has been said that his constant support from his mother was one of the reasons that he was able to pass the baccalauréat and still make music."
And it was all before 1991. Since then, rap has spread around the world even more. Much much more.
Senegal, Chad, Egypt, France. Of course, the boy was mad at Neil Armstrong. What else could it be?
And once again, @glupson pollutes a thread with breathtaking dishonesty.
Hard-core American rap is precisely what those who dismiss it out of hand on this forum react so strongly to. And of course I, and others, who have countered the thinly veiled racist comments, are not only well aware of the broader foundations of rap, but have largely the been the ones to talk about them on related threads.
To characterize it as a "relatively small, geographical location", is also dishonest, given the tremendous production and influence that has emanated from the inner cities. You might as well note that Silicon Valley is a" relatively small, geographical location", in an effort to denigrate the accomplishments of those who have worked there.
Finally, this:
Eventually, proclaiming that everyone who disagrees is a horrible person (in different words, though).
is a ludicrous straw man. You really should be embarrassed.
You really should stop spilling your racism-infused ignorance here. And elsewhere. It is not even thinly-veiled.
You constantly harras people with it. Everything has to come down to your view and it has to involve racism. There must be some connection you could find between the Titanic iceberg and Neil Armstrong’s guilt that he was not born whatever color you prefer your racistic comments to be.
Instead of being so correct, and everybody else being whatever names you righteous one call them, why wouldn’t you check more of Japanese rap. Or the one from Ukraine? Maybe some Vietnamese? Brazilian? Learn something. Your aggression is tiring.
EDIT: This thread started on a good note, exposing some of us to what we have never heard of before, French rap, and then it had to get to this circular non-sense you always promote.
Based on your posts on this thread, it should be apparent to readers that you don’t even understand the word "racism". If you did, then you would also understand that there isn’t anything remotely racist in discussing the socio-economic and political catalysts for certain strains of rap music.
As for "racism-infused ignorance", if you're going to make such pungent accusations, you really should support them with examples.
Based on your posts, you have wrong impression of your posts. And of what rap is.
In one of those closed threads, I provided a few (4? 5?) examples of rap from different countries. Not one of those examples had lyrics even remotely linked to anything you promote here. None. The ship you are clinging to has sailed decades ago. If you had clicked on the link for Articolo 31 concert then, you would have seen the audience really enjoying themselves. Young audience, at that. They have nothing to do, and may as well be completely disinterested, with topics so dear to you. It is not what rap is for them. For them, rap is fun, good times. I would bet that 90% of them have never heard of some of the leaders’ names mentioned in that old thread and that, out of remaining (generous) 10%, maybe 1% could tell you more than one sentence about those leaders. Still, they like rap and live in many geographical locations. Rendering innercities of Northern America small.
Again, as an illustration of what rap is, check this link. See at around 58th or 59th minute. Watch the faces of opressed angry innercity people at 59:15. That is what rap is. Thankfully.
So I’ve been listening to a lot of Pharoahe Monch lately, diving deeper into his catalog. What a gifted lyricist and perspective!
And yes, rap is a worldwide phenomenon, but MC Solaar was not the progenitor of the genre. I mean, one of his main influences was South Bronx MC Africa Bambaataa, the South Bronx arguably being the birthplace of turntable DJ’ing and rapping as we know it (also tied into the huge graffiti movement and breakdancing crews of the time).
I mean, you couldn't have your finger on the pop-culture pulse of the early-80's without having moved to "Planet Rock" at some point.
That being said, Solaar was as influential as any artist in helping spread rap and hiphop from the American shores.
I really, genuinely wish that you would be more honest. It’s as if you are confusing me with someone else. None of your accusations can be supported with evidence, which is why you have failed to present any. All you do is accuse, and without foundation.
You say:
Not one of those examples had lyrics even remotely linked to anything you promote here.
Promote? I’m not promoting anything. Show us a quote of mine that might be interpreted as "promoting".
I have been a defender of the genre from the beginning of the first (now deleted) thread, yet you suggest the opposite.
I have, a number of times, pointed out that there is great variety. In fact, it was one of my first counterpoints to millercarbon’s blanket dismissal, before you were even in the discussion.
While some influences can be traced further back, it was inner city American hip-hop that catalyzed the genre worldwide. It’s a simple fact, and in no way disparages those around the world who were touched by it, and subsequently added their own, unique branches to the tree.
Me’Shell Ndgeocello: searing social commentary, master-level bass grooves, and superb vocal phrasing on tracks like Soul on Ice, Shoot’n up and Gett’n High, Make Me Wanna to Holler, (the anti-homophobic) Leviticus:Faggot, Mary Magdalene - all to a background that draws heavily on ’70s soul. And that’s just her first two albums.
Listen to her phrasing on the Bill Withers song Who Is He and What Is He to You. If you don’t get it, try singing it the way she does.
I’ve seen her live on numerous occasions, always surrounded by awesome musicians, and she consistently just blows me away.
Some here won’t need this, but for anyone who’s historically challenged when it comes to hip hop - here’s a link to an overview in Wikipedia that clarifies its origins in the Bronx, among other things.
@ggoggin -- as a kid in Washington Heights, NYC, in the early 80's, that whole wave of early hiphop, corner crews, and rap swept over me. I remember actually seeing DJ's plug their tt's into lampposts and hearing them cut a record. Tried to do it with my mom's tt at home and broke it. Not good. As Kool Moe Dee advised, "only under hip hop supervision."
@simao That's a great story. I remember Washington Heights from '83 on - I had a few friends up there on Fort Washington & 175th, 181st, and Cabrini Blvd (which was a whole different thing). NYC was quite different back then - regular people could afford to live in the city. I look back on that time with great fondness, although I don't think I really appreciated what it was and what was going on at the time. The blindness of youth etc. etc. I spent a lot of time on the LES as well, and it was all salsa all the time down there - also a great vibe.
The great majority of Rap is inherently political. It is hard to avoid. Clear why these threads about Rap engender such overtly political comments. It is unfortunate that we on this Forum cannot have a civilized discussion about the elements of Rap good and bad. I believe that we can all agree that Music is central to our hobby and close to out hearts. And that Rap, regardless of personal preference, is a genre of recorded sound that many greatly enjoy and even cherish. Life is too short to waste on negativity and criticism.
@whipsaw Her whole band was great, but I particularly remember her keyboard play Federico Gonzalez Pena. At some point he would solo on MiniMoog and just take you way out there. Such a fine musician.
This clip from Sessions at West 54th includes an interview with her as well as live performance of four tracks. For someone so talented, she's so humble. A true artist who reminds me what it is to be human.
West Village one bedroom 1983 (my apartment) $318/month Average cost today: $3,500/month
Given standard landlord metrics, this would require a minimum income of around $140K. In the early 80’s a lot of creative people could afford to live downtown - not so much anymore. As a result it’s nowhere near as interesting an environment today as it was back then, IMO.
I do not have much explanation, but (in 2019) average income in Manhattan was $50 000. Take away some very rich people and average for non-billionaires may be even less than that. It is more than 1 600 000 people living there. They obviously make it somehow. Even if two regular parents make $50 000 each, it still does not come to $140 000. What is the secret?
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