Solid State vs. Tubes - What if Transistors came first?
Live acoustic music is not tubelike or SS. It is somewhere between the two in many ways. It is not exceptionally rounded or flat, overly warm or cold or particularly rolled off nor piercing. It is clear, undistorted, unconfined and full of dynamic shadings. It is unique unto itself. There is certainly no imaging per se either. SS and tubes can convey certain aspects of a live performance but can not fully reproduce it. Large events use SS amplification, but no matter what amplification would be used, the venue itself has a larger sonic imprint. That’s why there are great sounding Symphony Halls and terrible sounding ones. Seats within venues alter your perception of fidelity. For home, many variables must be in harmony to achieve a reasonable level of fidelity to the source. Far more than just Tubes or SS in the signal path. Of course, you also need to be able to hear pitch and tone with reasonable acuity. |
In addition, I have found that SS amplification requires more attention to power supply/AC quality. Cable design is also more imperative toward maximizing sound quality with SS components. Either technology can deliver pleasing results. One thing that has always seemed to consistently sound better to my ears, was the use of Class A or high bias A/B high current designs. Large power supplies also seem to offer better dynamics. |
That is what I, kind of, thought, too. The point between tubes and SS ends up being no point at all, if we are trying to reproduce the actual live event. Too many other variables get involved. To start, unless it is classical music, even "acoustic" one does get through some mode of electronic processing almost all the time. Not while playing guitar at home, but any venue bigger than a living room or so. Chasing some sound with tubes or transistors does not do much for actual reproduction. And that is for live performances which are maybe a smaller percentage of music sold. Who on Earth knows how something was supposed to sound in that studio half the world away? Good news is that these days it is getting to electronic sounds anyway so we do not even need to talk about "more natural". My previous post was because I happen to have been at that particular Leonard Cohen concert and that song was the highlight of the evening. I remember it really vividly as does probably everyone who was there. There is no way that any equipment at home would reproduce it. Tubes or SS. First someone has to built a sports arena and then damp it with a few thousand people and their winter coats. Traps, corner contraptions, and first reflection things just would not cut it. Until that happens, it is all just babbling, I think. Otherwise, I think SS is much more convenient as it does not require changes. Just like automatic transmission is. I am not sure about cables etc. |
Yes, I think loudness is a reflection of wanting to hear the dynamics and inherent dynamic expression that exists in “live” events! That is what tells our ear/brain that we are in the presence of a live event...walking past a bar with a live act, right? You know when it’s live...the dynamic range gives it away. |
geoffkait, I did come out and mentioned it many times, but you never read past "My understanding is..." so you did not drink from this well of wisdom I have been selflessly opening for you. Now, just so you do not say I have not told you, appearance of the equipment does play a big role to many potential buyers. |
dave_b, Loudness button reminded me of my intermittent and unnoticed questions on these threads. People get into fierce arguments about tinniest pieces (for example, fuses), or directionality of wire, or taking covers off the component. They argue about perceived benefits and other camp makes just the opposite claims. Not once have I seen arguments about tweaks/tuning include how loud the music was when played with a certain tweak/tuning. Actual loudness is probably one of the most noticeable tweaks a person can do. It changes whole perception of sound in seconds or less. Some allegedly phenomenal cable that makes difference may not be that phenomenal at the different setting simply because ears/brain may not perceive the change it is supposed to make that noticeable. From what I understand, loudness button acts exactly on one part of that (brain), if not on ears themselves. Whatever it is, I often like it. |
"What's the problem with changing tubes ?"Not much, if someone prefers it to some other activities. However, needing to do it makes some users less inclined to support that technology when there is another, more convenient, option which still works quite well in many people's minds. Convenience does destroy many things, I suppose. Inconvenience makes them, well, inconvenient. Sometimes inconvenient enough not to be practical for daily use. We just cannot win. |
mapman, I do not mind geoffkait trashing me at all. It goes well with my kindergarten training. Been there, done that. At some point, I had to give a lecture to 147 3-5 year olds. Talk about having a stage fright for a week prior to that. geoffkait is fine, he is just one and he is not even in the same room. The only real difference is that those 147 paid attention and thought about the subject. |
geoffkait, "I’m pretty sure in real life he’s a priest or bishop or something."Everybody is "something" so you are somewhat right about me. If you are talking about my profession, I am neither a priest, nor a bishop. I do, at times, have to act in that capacity to some extent, though. You know, improvising during some unexpected imperfect times. Kind of like dealing with you. |
I believe a few points are being missed here: 1) Tubes are analog. Are we all suddenly forgetting that one of the foremost Hi Quality values in audiophile sound is the $12k Range Analog Pass Labs XA60.8 and predecessor XA60.5? Despite all the accolades to the Solid State Pass Labs X series in the same price range, personally, I've never come across a Pass Labs owner or Pro-Reviewer that dared to compare the sound quality of the Solid State X Series to its price competitor XA Series. Yes,,,they are different power groups, but I'm speaking strictly from the sound quality perspective. While everything is debatable, if it is mostly accepted that Audio Quality Analog from Pass Labs is pretty much King at its price points, is it not a reasonable assertion that Analog Tubes are (1) not crud, (2) at least competitive with Solid State depending on build quality/design/company, and (3) even at times superior to Solid State, again, depending on build quality/design/company. 2) The posted A / B blind by Peter Walker of Quad Audio which is referenced earlier in this discussion had to be 20 years ago, if not more. Paul Walker died in 2003. Holy Cow, look at how far Tube has come since then...heck, look at how far Tube has come in the past 5 years. Yes,,,,Solid State has had quite the advances as well, but honestly,,,in the past 5-10 years its been speakers that have taken off in sound reproduction improvements, while some of the same GREAT Solid State Amps from 2000-2005 are still amongst the best amps in their price range today. the only real advances (save a very few unique Uber hi end such as Pass Labs X series or $10k + arena in general) in Solid State have been in efficiency and smaller size (Class D, Class G, etc), but not any gleaming change in ultimate sound reproduction improvement for the market Solid State market as a whole. But to compare some great sub $10k tubes of today to 10 years ago shows glaring improvements in definition, dynamic range, ultimate power output, lifespan, etc. So if they were equals 20+ years ago..... |
mapman, "...know-it-all GK,..." No. He does not know if it is better to put oregano directly on dough, on sauce, or on top of all the pizza ingredients. To his defense, nobody on Audiogon has ever answered that question. Any old Amish recipe for oregano on pizza? It has been bothering me for a while so I ask every time I make pizza. Maybe some day... |
sfcfran, It is an interesting outlook and it made me think of something unrelated to tubes/SS debate. "...if it is mostly accepted that Audio Quality Analog from Pass Labs is pretty much King at its price points,"Why was/is anybody buying anything else? That would be an interesting marketing research, or at least Audiogon thread. Note: I have never heard anything by Pass, but have only heard good things about it. |
Any old Amish recipe for oregano on pizza? http://www.amish365.com/the-amish-cook-gloria-talks-pizza/ Looks delicious, very high end! Look at all those ingredients! Go completely wild and toss some oregano on there. To think Amish take pride in being plain. Whodathunkit? |
That was revealing. They mix oregano in the dough, it seems. I could not see that one coming. And then baking, taking out, baking again, really, who said Amish were simple? I will try that next time. Speaking of tubes, they do get warm. Now, what the world needs is not more tubes. It is ovens with doors opening sideways. |
Not only that but fact is Amish kids love their high end car stereos in their barn. No joke. They bought them in the store I worked in back then all the time. Is Radio Shack high end enough? It is for Amish kids. While on the topic I gotta say that may be the tastiest looking pizza I have personally seen in quite a while! Go Amish! |
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