Solid State vs. Tubes - What if Transistors came first?

True...sure glad we’re ok, right?  Right???

Well, it seems to me that there are a few around here who may benefit from a bit of professional help.

Is it possible M51 is institutionalized?  That would explain a lot.

"...a dyed in the wool naysayer slash pseudo skeptic."

It is not nice that wool-clad naysayers slash pseudo skeptics. This is just a non-sense hobby. No need for violence of that magnitude.

"...De Forest had only a limited understanding of how it worked....”

Limited understanding is still understanding. Understanding of own limitations of understanding is often missing on these forums, while naive failure to recognize Socratic irony in some of the posts seems to be thriving.

Here’s looking at you, kid...

“His most famous invention, in 1906, was the three-element "Audion" (triode) vacuum tube, the first practical amplification device. Although De Forest had only a limited understanding of how it worked....”

Apparently Deforest and maritime have something in common. 🤭

jayh,

+++for you

Or a pseudo sexual sadist. -Lee Deforest, channeled by the Kait thingy. 🍤

I may be dead but I’m not stupid, nor bound to outdated tech. -Lee Deforest, channeled by Kait thingy.

Two things are true. You can’t change the mind of a dead person. And you can’t change the mind of a dyed in the wool naysayer slash pseudo skeptic. 🤨 

I occurs to me that because tubes require a vacuum to function, by design they must “suck” if they did not, they could not function:)

Speaking of burn outs....just joking, no offense....

It is "organic". All the coldness is gone.

Pizza warmed with tubes is more natural in taste. -Lee Deforest

🍕

Dear Lee,

That is why I thought that pizza placed near the tube thread was appropriate.

kosst_amojan,

This light bulb analogy was quite funny. I agree with it although, if someone likes it, why not.

“Tubes make great pizza warmers.”  -Lee Deforest 

Not only that but fact is Amish kids love their high end car stereos in their barn. No joke. They bought them in the store I worked in back then all the time. Is Radio Shack high end enough? It is for Amish kids.

While on the topic I gotta say that may be the tastiest looking pizza I have personally seen in quite a while!   Go Amish!

That was revealing. They mix oregano in the dough, it seems. I could not see that one coming. And then baking, taking out, baking again, really, who said Amish were simple? I will try that next time.

Speaking of tubes, they do get warm. Now, what the world needs is not more tubes. It is ovens with doors opening sideways.

Any old Amish recipe for oregano on pizza?

http://www.amish365.com/the-amish-cook-gloria-talks-pizza/
Looks delicious, very high end!   Look at all those ingredients!    Go completely wild and toss some oregano on there.


To think Amish take pride in being plain. Whodathunkit?

sfcfran,

It is an interesting outlook and it made me think of something unrelated to tubes/SS debate.

"...if it is mostly accepted that Audio Quality Analog from Pass Labs is pretty much King at its price points,"

Why was/is anybody buying anything else? That would be an interesting marketing research, or at least Audiogon thread.

Note: I have never heard anything by Pass, but have only heard good things about it.

mapman,

"...know-it-all GK,..."

No. He does not know if it is better to put oregano directly on dough, on sauce, or on top of all the pizza ingredients.

To his defense, nobody on Audiogon has ever answered that question. Any old Amish recipe for oregano on pizza? It has been bothering me for a while so I ask every time I make pizza. Maybe some day...

Pop quiz:
How many "trolls" does it take to effectively banish the King Troll you know who?

“It’s so charming when one troll has another troll’s back.“

Yes, isn’t it. 👀🃏🤡

The only real difference is that those 147 paid attention and thought about the subject.

Children are born naturally curious to learn and stay that way if they are fortunate unlike our favorite child here, know-it-all GK, of course.

I believe a few points are being missed here:

1)  Tubes are analog.  Are we all suddenly forgetting that one of the foremost Hi Quality values in  audiophile sound is the $12k Range Analog Pass Labs XA60.8 and predecessor XA60.5?  Despite all the accolades to the Solid State Pass Labs X series in the same price range, personally, I've never come across a Pass Labs owner or Pro-Reviewer that dared to compare the sound quality of the Solid State X Series to its price competitor XA Series.  Yes,,,they are different power groups, but I'm speaking strictly from the sound quality perspective.  While everything is debatable, if it is mostly accepted that Audio Quality Analog from Pass Labs is pretty much King at its price points, is it not a reasonable assertion that Analog Tubes are (1) not crud, (2) at least competitive with Solid State depending on build quality/design/company, and (3) even at times superior to Solid State, again, depending on build quality/design/company.

2)  The posted A / B blind by Peter Walker of Quad Audio which is referenced earlier in this discussion had to be 20 years ago, if not more.  Paul Walker died in 2003.  Holy Cow, look at how far Tube has come since then...heck, look at how far Tube has come in the past 5 years.  Yes,,,,Solid State has had quite the advances as well, but honestly,,,in the past 5-10 years its been speakers that have taken off in sound reproduction improvements, while some of the same GREAT Solid State Amps from 2000-2005 are still amongst the best amps in their price range today.  the only real advances (save a very few unique Uber hi end such as Pass Labs X series or $10k + arena in general) in Solid State have been in efficiency and smaller size (Class D, Class G, etc), but not any gleaming change in ultimate sound reproduction improvement for the market Solid State market as a whole.  But to compare some great sub $10k tubes of today to 10 years ago shows glaring improvements in definition, dynamic range, ultimate power output, lifespan, etc.  So if they were equals 20+ years ago.....

geoffkait,

"I’m pretty sure in real life he’s a priest or bishop or something."

Everybody is "something" so you are somewhat right about me.

If you are talking about my profession, I am neither a priest, nor a bishop. I do, at times, have to act in that capacity to some extent, though. You know, improvising during some unexpected imperfect times. Kind of like dealing with you.

Huh, guys, thanks for compliments. I am not sure that I am that righteous, but the bar is not set that high so I am not too bad. More like a dive bar, I would say.

geoffkait,

"I must leave now!"

Any chance you will keep your word this time?

One of the main reasons I have been a big proponent of MIT and Transparent cables is the fact that they both lower the noise floor dramatically and allow for far better dynamics and tonal color to come through.

Bingo! I’m pretty sure in real life he’s a priest or bishop or something. And we already know Moops is Amish. 

Glupson is definitely righteous!  

It should not be too inconvenient. Suppose, one would have to clean stylus for 30 minutes before each play. How many would do it ? 
Or replacing tubes every day. 

It’s so charming when one troll has another troll’s back. What a team! The Gloopster. Moop-a-rama. Enter the jitter person. The triumvirate! I must leave now!

glupson, I would like to compliment you on your patience and generosity shown towards Geoff, which as anticipated has yielded precious little in return. But keep up the righteous battle and maybe someday....

mapman,

I do not mind geoffkait trashing me at all. It goes well with my kindergarten training. Been there, done that. At some point, I had to give a lecture to 147 3-5 year olds. Talk about having a stage fright for a week prior to that. geoffkait is fine, he is just one and he is not even in the same room. The only real difference is that those 147 paid attention and thought about the subject.

"What's the problem with changing tubes ?"

Not much, if someone prefers it to some other activities. However, needing to do it makes some users less inclined to support that technology when there is another, more convenient, option which still works quite well in many people's minds.

Convenience does destroy many things, I suppose. Inconvenience makes them, well, inconvenient. Sometimes inconvenient enough not to be practical for daily use. We just cannot win.

dave_b,

Loudness button reminded me of my intermittent and unnoticed questions on these threads. People get into fierce arguments about tinniest pieces (for example, fuses), or directionality of wire, or taking covers off the component. They argue about perceived benefits and other camp makes just the opposite claims. Not once have I seen arguments about tweaks/tuning include how loud the music was when played with a certain tweak/tuning. Actual loudness is probably one of the most noticeable tweaks a person can do. It changes whole perception of sound in seconds or less. Some allegedly phenomenal cable that makes difference may not be that phenomenal at the different setting simply because ears/brain may not perceive the change it is supposed to make that noticeable. From what I understand, loudness button acts exactly on one part of that (brain), if not on ears themselves. Whatever it is, I often like it.

Convenience is what destroys art and quality, in time it destroys mind as well. What's the problem with changing tubes ? Some NOS tubes are quite expensive and difficult to find, though. 

Glupson you should feel special  GK likes to stalk,  chat with and trash you.   It means he likes you or maybe just that he thinks you are worth his trashing.   It's a very special honor and you should be proud!  If you stop he will miss you and wonder where you went like a little puppy.   

geoffkait,

Prove what? Well, whatever it is, no need for me to prove it. Time will tell. You can jump on board now and later pretend you were avantgarde. Tickets are free.

Dale, whatever.

glubson, prove it. No offense intended.

Of course not Geoffkait, your missing the context and intent of my statement silly.  I was referencing the common reaction we all have to live music...it’s easily identifiable!  At home, I can understand how someone would try and get a bit of that same feeling at home by hitting the loudness button.

geoffkait,

I did come out and mentioned it many times, but you never read past "My understanding is..." so you did not drink from this well of wisdom I have been selflessly opening for you.


Now, just so you do not say I have not told you, appearance of the equipment does play a big role to many potential buyers.

No offense intended to anyone living or dead but loudness is not the same thing as dynamic range. People! One way to avoid poor dynamic range is don’t listen to CDs. Oh, did I just say that?

Yes, I think loudness is a reflection of wanting to hear the dynamics and inherent dynamic expression that exists in “live” events!  That is what tells our ear/brain that we are in the presence of a live event...walking past a bar with a live act, right?  You know when it’s live...the dynamic range gives it away.

“Solid state is more convenient.”

Out if the mouths of babes....

So, gentle readers, it all comes down to precisely the same reason why most people prefer digital. Convenience. Why didn’t he just come right out and say it and spare us all the philosophizing?

Class A also consistently sounds more pleasing to me. I would not dare to say it is more natural, believable, or something like that, but it does tickle me right. So does "loudness" button more often than not, I sheepishly admit.