Hi
I had a Ref 3 and Ref 110.
I got tired of replacing tubes. My equipment is on a lot.
The Pass Labs X350.5 has control. It doesn't stress or strain even with large scale orchestral works. This into 87dB speakers.
The XA60.5 was just not holding together on the big stuff when played loudly.
I frequently am not in the room with the speakers when listening.
That said, if you like to listen quietly and are a spacial junkie, some say the XA60.5's do that better, though it didn't seem much of a difference to me.
On the ARC gear, I still think as neutral as some claim it to be, there was still some colorations that I do not find present with the Pass Labs gear.
So, I am happy with the solid state gear sonically and do not have to replace tubes!
Plus, if you have never heard a BIG solid state amp, you should.
Power is not the limiting issue, and that says a lot about the sonics especially at higher volumes. |
Mikewerner,
If I follows well you have a Pass Labs X350.5 and a XP-20, and you had also a XA60.5.
How these combos compare with REF3 + REF110 (which I also have)?
I just adquired a XA30.5 and plan to buy a XP-10, it is not the same than yours but I think could sound similar.
What are the differences between XA60.5 and X350.5 in terms of sound quality?
Thanks. |
Hi,
I also replaced my Ref 3 pre with a Pass Labs XP-20 and am pleased with the results.
If you can find a SS design that sounds as good as tubes, why use tubes?
Of course, the debate will be IF!
Mike |
Hi knghifi,
Yes, my point as well . We don't disagree. I was actually hoping a designer/builder would come along and explain the rationale for either circuit protection option for handling a blown output tube.
Charles, |
Hi Bifwynne,
Thanks and a very happy New Year to you and everyone as well.
Charles, |
Hey Charles, did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night?? Just checking. Happy New Year again. |
Dbarger,
Hey man , yes relax! We'll all just offering opinions which are bound to
differ. We all can agree there's more than one approach to handling a blown
tube and its outcome. This is fun and also educational from my
perspective. Obviously ARC has their reasons as do those brands that
choose an alternative method. I'm just trying to learn something here. My
ARC-VAC comparison was simply to illustrate two highly respected brands
that do it differently, that's all.
Charles |
Dbarger .... I'm not a EE, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. ;') |
Reading that back, it sounds a bit harsh. Sorry.
This is supposed to be fun. |
What bugs me about this thread is all the armchair quarterbacking about circuit design by non-engineers. These designs are all different. BAT does not design like ARC. Any electrical engineers with expertise on tube circuitry weighed in on these issues? I mean, are we really supposed to agree that since one person did not hear degradation with a change to BAT amps that ARC should fuse theirs?
This is all just a bit ridiculous. The only thing these designs have in common is they use tubes.
Charles1dad, we get your point. We don't agree. Saying it again won't change that. You should steer clear of ARC amps, definitely.
I am going over to the Porsche forum now and tell them they have to design their cars for better gas mileage. I will tell them that my Fusion gets better mileage and they need to do whatever Ford does.
That was an analogy, I kid! |
Charles1dad, My only point is not all talented designers agree on the same principles. Obviously some talented designers do find fuses degrade performance.
Customers can choose whatever they want. In your example, your friend prefers VAC so he buys VAC. Some prefers ARC, they buy ARC. |
Knghifi,
You missed the point entirely it seems. ARC and CAT aren't the only ones
who have experienced and talented designers/engineers, in my example I
referenced earlier, my friend went from ARC to VAC. He strongly preferred
the VAC and I agreed with him, simply a matter of taste, I also have owned
ARC and it's a good product but IMO there's better available and I voted
with my wallet and moved on.
I have nothing at all against ARC components and they have certainly
withstood the test of time (as have VAC and other quality products).I dont
believe that ARC amps are unreliable, but their resistor replacement is in my
view a needless hassle.
My point in this interesting thread is I don't think that 'fuses degrade sound
quality across the board' is correct (some designs may and others don't,
it's implementation). My evidence is hearing very good tube
amplifiers(VAC is just one example) that IMO equal or better the ARC
sound. If you disagree that's fine and understandable, just a different point
of view.
Charles, |
As has been pointed out, fuse protection isn't synonymous with sound degradation (this is a faulty premise). I guess ARC and Ken Stevens @CAT didn't get the memo. It's obvious ARC and Convergent don't want fuses in their design for whatever reason. If you don't like their approach or sound, buy something else. What's the big deal? ARC and CAT have been in business for a long time, well respected and with a large loyal customer base. So either reliability is an overblown issue or sound quality trumps everything. |
Until we hear back from the man with the soldiering iron, let's hold judgment.
Gpgr4blu makes some fair points. ARC engineers are not amateurs and it should be a given that they know what they are doing. In furtherance of these points, I would fall out of my chair if it turned out that the reason ARC didn't use drop in fuses or similar protective components was just to save a couple of bucks. The MSRPs of the REF 150, REF 250 and REF 750 are $13K, $26K and $55K, respectively. It would be madness to think a reputable company like ARC would look to save a couple of bucks on some cheapo parts making such expensive equipment unless the designers sincerely believed that "more would be less."
Look ... I get the crabbing. I've owned ARC tube amps for quite a few years. I don't like the PITA inconvenience of calling a service tech to my house. More than the out-of-pocket repair costs, I miss not having the use of my system. So I think I get it.
Now ..., let's flip it around and ask these simple questions: How well does ARC gear work? Putting a finer point on the question, how good does it sound? The short answer to the first question is, except for the infrequent pesky open bias resister issue, I never had any other problems. And the answer to the second question is, IMO, excellent. Of course folks have their own opinions which I respect. But those are my opinions.
So where IS that elusive man with the soldiering iron??
Hey guys, it's just a hobby. Let's enjoy our systems and be grateful that we can.
Happy New Year.
Bruce |
As has been pointed out, fuse protection isn't synonymous with sound degradation (this is a faulty premise). There are excellent sounding tube amplifiers that use fuse protection and don't destroy resistors in the process. |
There is a reason for everything---almost. I am sure that ARC engineers know how to insert a fuse for protection of the circuit instead of a resistor. Would save lots of customer inquiries, returned amps in the tube warranty period and customer cost of repairs, the profit for which probably goes mostly to their authorized service people.
Many of us would prefer the ease of a fuse in the circuit, but not if it degrades the sound. Hopefully, the ARC guys find a way someday---but for now, I'll take ARC's word for it.
Gary (Hifigeek) --where r u?
|
Dbarger, for $40,000 those amps (ref 610- 750's) ought to have a
clapper! As we all know audio companies seldom if ever will post failure rates or repair statistics. My point is for the kind of money one pays for the
Ref 110 - 175 or for any tube amp that exceeds 4 figures,with the technology we have today what is the problem with an auto-bias? There are ways to deal with the signal degradation and burnt resistors.Look at the cost of the Prologe gear, have you seen a thread that mentions a resistor frying the pcb? Why does one have to spend $40,000 to get that kind of protection.
As for the internet, we all search these threads to make decisions concerning purchases and gear. Until we start seeing published repair rates I suppose we will continue to defend and discuss or disparage protection issues or lack thereof. Happy New Year to all. |
Joman, why do you say it is a persistent problem? It is not. If it were, they would fuse it and not have the issue. Can you imagine the issues they would have with the ref610 and 750's if these were recurring problems?
This is the problem with the internet... |
I found the bigger BAT solid state amps to compete very favorably with the ARC gear. Balanced Audio and VTL have an auto bias system that goes a long way toward solving the burnt resistor problem. BAT has a fuse less system now that will open before the tube blows which makes the blown tube, arc, burnt resistor scenario a thing of the past. I could not hear any audible degradation of sound when that update was performed. I feel a company that fails to address a persistent problem doesn't deserve my business. Just my opinion. |
Charles ...., I hear ya. Don't know what to add to what I've already said. Yes ... bias resisters may blow if a tube arcs and since I am not comfortable taking a soldiering iron to my amp, replacement is a bigger deal than it should be. My gut tells me that if -- and that's a big if -- there is a denigration in sonics, it might be worth the trade-off to insert a fuse into the signal path. Again, maybe Gary (Hifigeek) will weigh in with his reality check reactions.
Happy New Year to all. |
I'm with Swampwalker on this issue. There are definitely tube amplifiers
that sound excellent and will blow a simple cheap fuse rather than take out
a resistor. I don't buy the ARC sound quality argument either. ARC is good
but there's better (matter of taste). A good friend had ARC for several years
and replaced it with VAC components which will blow a fuse instead of a
resistor. Nice as the ARC (no knock) was we both felt that the VAC was
clearly a step up in sound quality. ARC may have their own reasons but the
"better performance" doesn't hold up. Replacing resistors is an
unnecessary inconvenience compared to replacing a simple fuse.
Charles, |
Once again, Conrad Johnson just released a solid-state power amp that will rival the last one (Premier SS350). |
Swampwalker, I've been down "tube arc road" several times. Yes ... it's true, most times the tube arc took a bias resister out. But no flames, explosions, cascading oscillations that blew speakers, or Fourth of July explosions and sparks.
Yes ... it's also true that replacing the bias resisters is a PITA. Fortunately, there's an ARC authorized service tech about a 30 to 40 minute drive to my house who happens to make house call. It takes the rep about 30 minutes to pop in a new resister and I'm back in business pretty quickly.
Gary (Hifigeek) is an authorized ARC service tech. Perhaps he can bring some perspective to this issue. My guess is that this is more of a tube thing than a design thing. Tubes arc -- period. When they do, they will pop a fuse or a resister. If one owns tube gear -- this goes with the territory. Just my opinion. |
There are lots of tube amps that can equal or out-perform ARC amps AND have fused protection for the output tubes. Any output device tube or solid state can fail. A design that results in a major, $$, cascading failure as a result of a reasonably anticipated event, IMO, is not "good" design. Flame away. |
I guess I would ask the OP if the blown tube was an ARC tube, or from a different seller. ARC stands by their tubes and offers a warranty for a time period to include repairs. I have owned five different ARC tube amps, VT100mk2 through my current Ref150. The only time I had an issue was when I bought tubes from another supplier to save some cash. That cost me plenty, so I recommend ARC tubes for ARC gear.
Also, ARC does not fuse the amps in this way for performance reasons. If you want a lower performing tube amp which will blow a fuse, those are available.
I will say that I am seeing these solid state amps recommended as alternatives and having owned many of them, well, they are not in the same ballpark as your Ref110. That said, I do own an Ayre VX-5 which is a great solid state amp. Note that this is NOT the V5xe.
Just my .02 |
Ayre - can't think of another amp that would be comparable |
I found a Pass Labs XA30.5 in the second hand market and bought it. After some setup with cabling I find it sounds really well, mid bass is characteristic of solid state, it remembers me the AR 100.2 I had some years ago. Mids are very good, maybe not as good as REF110, and highs are very clear without sounding hash or analitical at any time. Soundstage is terrifing, I would say in the same league than REF110.
I have to listen it and take conclusions if it is enought satisfactory to replace the REF110. Both amplifiers sound different but enjoyable, I think.
My other doubth is if a Pass Labs XP-10 preamp could sound better than my AR REF 3 with the XA30.5. Maybe I will open another post.
Many thanks for posting and give advice. |
I suspect the Pass Labs XA30.5 Would be a good match with the 90 db sensitive Proac Speaker. It's 4 ohm nomlnal load shouldn't be a problem for this highly regarded SS amplifier. I don't believe that the Proac is considered to be a hard/difficult load and in fact many drive them successfully with tube amplifiers.
Charles, |
Ayre - great sound, great customer support |
Pass Labs XA30.5 has also very good reviews. I do not know if enough power for 90db 4ohm Proac D38. |
Ayre V-5xe or Pass Labs X250.5 seem good alternatives.
I have read Pass Labs has some trouble with heat???
Any comment about these amps?
Many thanks in advance. |
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Djcxx, that was my experience also.
Tubes are a hassle!
They sound good, but I'm now happy with solid state now and have not looked back.
- |
|
ARC tube amps are tough on tubes and they do not last 2000 hrs in my experience. After 750 hrs the bias needs to be carefully followed and kept close to ARC specs or the tube and it's resistor will fry. Also ARC tube amps are not friendly to NOS tube rolling. High cost matched ARC tubes frequently monitored and changed out earlier than what most consider normal tube life will keep your circuits and sonics intact. Stable AC is a must. Most of the ARC tube amp problems can be traced to one of these issues. |
I believe Salectric's point is very valid. Many tube amplifiers are available
that when a tube fails it blows a fuse and that's it. This is much simpler and
less expensive than having to replace a resistor (s) or in some cases a
circuit board. I don't understand how using a resistor rather than a fuse
offers any sonic advantage. Replacing the fuse is so much easier and
requires no soldering or trip/shipping to a technician.
Charles, |
12-12-13: Mikewerner
Yeah, I have a BMW motorcar. I'm glad that the service department never answers their calls.
Who needs them, anyway?
My car runs GREAT!
I have never heard such nonsense as from salectric There will always be Honda and Porsche drivers. Both have a marketplace and nothing wrong with neither. Sometimes there's a steep price to pay for performance. Another great example in audio is CAT. Ken Stevens builds them like race cars. A owner described his amp as a popcorn popper but he will never sell due to the sound. |
Yeah, I have a BMW motorcar. I'm glad that the service department never answers their calls.
Who needs them, anyway?
My car runs GREAT!
I have never heard such nonsense as from kevinkwan |
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Yeah, I have a BMW motorcar.
I'm glad that the service department never answers their calls.
Who needs them, anyway?
My car runs GREAT!
I have never heard such nonsense as from salectric.
- |
Don't hold me to this, but I seem to recall that Kal or Len once explained that ARC deliberately chose not to use fuses or auto bias circuits because the components were artifacts that could potentially degrade the sonics. To the best of my knowledge, I am not aware that ARC used such compenents in tube amps over the last "n" number of years. This is true not only limited to audio. Great example is automobiles. If you want performance, SOMETIMES you have to sacrifice convenience. It's a personal decision if worth the extra effort. To a smaller degree, choosing between a SS or tube amp is another example. |
Very good points Salectric! |
Thanks for your response Bruce! It was very informative. |
I have owned a number of ARC amps but all solid state. Having said that one amp that has not been mentioned which may be worth considering is the Modwright KWA150SE. I own one and it is a terrific amp which has many tube like characteristics (good ones), will drive anything and is extremely well made and reliable. I compares very favorably with any of the ARC amps I have owned--much more organic, dimensional and musically involving. Perhaps worth a look/listen. |
Fair comment Salelectric. Perhaps Ralph (Atmasphere), a manufacturer, or Gary (Hifigeek), an ARC authorized tech, will weigh in.
Don't hold me to this, but I seem to recall that Kal or Len once explained that ARC deliberately chose not to use fuses or auto bias circuits because the components were artifacts that could potentially degrade the sonics. To the best of my knowledge, I am not aware that ARC used such compenents in tube amps over the last "n" number of years.
I would be quite surprised to hear that the reason ARC didn't use those components was to save money. My goodness, the VS-115 retails for $7,500 and the Ref 150 retails for $13K. I'm sure that the cost savings, if any, would be chump change.
Anyway, I don't work for ARC, nor do I own stock in its parent company. But I do like the company and the people.
Cheers,
Bruce |
Bifwynne, you clearly like your ARC gear and the helpful service over the phone, and that's great. Nothing wrong with a happy customer. However, your note actually proves the point made earlier about the reliability problems with ARC power amps. From your own experience, you know that a bad tube can burn up a resistor which requires either a trip to the factory or a visit from a service tech. Also, you imply this happened more than once.
Now, you may appreciate the friendly folks at ARC when you inquire about a breakdown, but I ask you: wouldn't it be even better not to have to call the service dept in the first place? Just speaking for myself, I would rather know that if one of my output tubes failed all I will have to do is replace a fuse and put a new set of tubes in, set the bias and then be good for many more years. Great sound and reliable performance. That's what I want from my gear. |
Kevin ... Mike no doubt will answer for himself, but I can and will respond since I have owned ARC gear for many years and have *NEVER* had a serious problem. It is my experience that ARC has always been extremely responsive in responding to any technical issues and concerns that I had.
For example ... when my VS-115 blew some bias resisters, Kal (the ARC customer service rep) put me in contact with a local authorized tech who made house calls!! The first repair was under warranty and ARC honored it even though I couldn't find the receipt. Reason - because Kal knew me and remembered that he sold me the amp through an authorized dealer.
Kal or Len (his predecessor) patiently explained differences in various ARC equipment when I was interested in upgrading. This occurred with respect to every piece of equipment I own. In addition, Kal kept me apprised of when the factory was ready to update my Ref 5 to the "SE" version and efficiently got my unit through the factory.
Kal and Len were always helpful in answering technical questions about hooking up my equipment. Take a look at my posts about an impedance loading issue affecting my Ref 3 and 5. I had to buy a custom buffer from a gent by the name of Tom Tutay. Look up his name and you will see what happened.
Most recently, and then I'm done, Kal spent inordinate amounts of time with me when I was trying to understand impedance matching my amp and speakers. No need to rehash all of that again. Suffice to say, Kal was always extremely patient.
ARC has been around for over 40 years. Until just a few years ago, it was owned by the late William Z. Johnson who was a considered to be a pioneer and legend in the audio business. I won't tell you that every piece of ARC gear made was a winner over the last 40+ years, but way more often than not, ARC gear was at the very top of the audio food chain.
Not to say that there aren't many other fine brands. There are. But hopefully Kevin, you are a believer.
Cheers,
Bruce |
Mike Werner, how would you know that ARC has great customer service if you've never had any ARC problems? |
Ditto what Mikewerner says. |
Oh, I forgot to mention that I had not ever had any problems with any of my Audio Research gear - power amps included.
Also, AR has excellent customer service! |
Look at Herron amps and pre amps. I have had my M1 amps for close to 6 years and have never found a other amp to replace them. Always on. Always just right. And I have had 3-4 other amps just to compare but keep the Herrons. |
I must say, I find these concerns re ARC reliability and matching Pre amps, a concern. I have just bought a Ref 75 and am matching it with what is effectively, a Music First Baby reference, though it is a clone. I have to say I am very happy with the result. The dealer bought a Ref 3 ARC pre when he set up the amp and on a very brief audition, I preferered my passive Pre.
I used the Passive because HiFi+ back a few years ago, liked the Ref 75 with Music First, but as someone has said, reviewrs do'nt keep amps long enough to judge reliabilty. |
