Well everyone will have slightly different experiences, but I had a similar reaction many years ago with the other magnet wire vendor. But it did not take much time to realize that what I was getting was a bunch of midrange, which can be addicting, but not the full range of frequencies.
One of the benefits of small gauge stranded wire that is individually insulated, is the elimination of skin effect and smearing. Then if you add in multiple wire sizes you can accommodate more of the frequencies as they spread out differently in the wires, and then if you make the wires silver instead of copper you get an greater effect (to some). So it keeps going. Knowing when to get off the train is key. I have no self-restraint so keep trying more topologies I can afford.
I actually prefer silver ribbon or alloy materials, so there is no hope for me. Save yourself!! Get off the train now! ha
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Clear Day Cables - solid core silver, small gauge... totally amazing stuff. Replaced almost $2,000 Audioquest speaker cables at a fraction of the cost.
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I was a big solid core devotee until I discovered that it's all system dependent. With my Tonian Labs TL-D1s, Tempo Electric solid silver SCs made for the best sound (even better than the Clear Day) but with my Clearwave Duet 6 monitors, Zu Audio Event SCs rule the roost (stranded cable). You won't know any different until you try.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Skin effect in copper starts at gauge 18@20kHz. Current in thick stranded cable jumps constantly from strand to strand to stay on the outside of the cable (skin effect). Surface of each strand contains impurities (copper oxide). Insulated strands are much better. Skin effect still exists since strands are in magnetic field of the other strands but it can be arranged in helical twist on hollow tube or flat tape to reduce magnetic field to neighboring strands only. At least that's how Audioquest explains it.
I replaced very thick stranded Monster Cable with a solid wire (AQ Indigo) long time ago, and sound opened substantially. Stranded cable was muffling the sound. |
Thanks I appreciate all your answers to this thread. I hope I will gather more explanations and gain a better understanding of the inherent pros and cons of these different type of cables. So far I have noticed an improvement in the high mids but also in the low frequencies when present. I'll be listening closely to assure my self that all frequencies are represented as my ears allow. |
There is not a single high end pre amplifier manufacturer that uses a single inch of stranded wire.
There are very few high end amplifier manufacturers that use stranded wire.
A long time ago Alon Wolf showed the crossover for his Magico Mini, it used magnet wire. No stranded wire. The picture was quickly removed. Seems audiophiles want expensive wire in their expensive speakers.
Don't waste your time trying to convince people that stranded wire is garbage, and should be relegated to mid-fi and lo-fi. Enjoy the music, and proceed to remove EVERY piece of stranded wire from your entire system. It will only get better with each change.
Tweeter: 28awg or smaller
Midrange: 24 - 26awg
Woofer: Here you can go heavy, 14 - 18awg.
Massive improvements with solid core power cords. Just really difficult to work with, and lots of bending and positioning. |
I do not mean to convince anyone of anything, just stating my experience so far. I am looking to refine my knowledge of the subject and everyone in this hobby has valuable information to share. Just like you cousinbilly, I appreciate any and all input even if it contradicts. Audio performance is very much subjective to the listeners ears and there is no hard evidence that determines right from wrong or good or bad. I value yours and anyones input. Thanks |
Please educate me. would kimber 12vs consider stranded wire? Thanka |
Stranded.
I believe 12vs is what Kimber calls "veristrand" copper construction. Multiple strands of different awg groups per strand wrapped in polyethylene. Then multiples of those strands wound in a helical pattern.
N
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For the Kimber: if each individual strand is coated, it behaves more like a solid core. You want to stop electron transfer between individual strands. This jumping from one strand to another cause minute arcs. Think Tesla coils but on a tiny scale. |
Just moved from solid silver ic's and solid copper red enamel speaker wire to multi strand Ic and speaker wire and really enjoying it. Things are not as incisively detailed but the music is relaxed and seems to be alive in a way that I don't want to get 'philey geeky tryn to xpress
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I really don't get the logic with heavy gauge on bass and ridiculously small gauge on midrange, and even smaller on tweeter... you're trying to put more resistance on tweeter/midrange to act like an additional crossover? |
I apologize if my explanation on "Veristrand" was insufficient. For an illustration please visit... www.kimber.comGo to: Products Go to: Base Series Go to: 12vs I hope this helps. N |
audiofreak
Great Avatar! Also, I am waiting for a set of Clear Day Double Shotgun's and 3 wire Jumpers to arrive to audition from Paul. I'm in line when he gets a next loaner set back. Looking forward to it. I have Audioquest in my system now.
N |
There was a time when I switched to solid core speaker cables and was quite pleased. A long-time Vandersteen dealer showed me the cables and told me that although Richard didn't publicly endorse cables these were the ones he often used. Amazingly, the price point was significantly less than others I was considering. Long story short, I tried them out and preferred them despite the fact that they were a third to half the cost of the others I auditioned. A win win! I have subsequently switched to wound cables again but for fairly priced, high performance cables I highly recommend these solid core cables. There is a decent explanation on their website, too: http://www.goertzaudio.com/contents/en-us/d16_MI_Speaker_Cables.html |
I believe cable performance is system dependant as well as personal taste. I have had success with several different combinations.
cousinbillyl if your still in copy, and anyone else interested.
Did you have a chance to check out the Kimber website? It has a great illustration of the internal view of the 12 vs series cable. 12 negative grey and 12 positive black windings coated with polyethylene. "Within each of those, are (7) different guage copper conductors. They are twisted together-touching- bare copper on bare copper.....
N |
Just my experience, but I am a believer in solid copper.
I am a fan of audioquest cables. I have enjoyed the Oaks immensely. |
AQ is my first choice, Always! The reason? They weld wires to DIN/RCA, eliminating wire-solder-metal interfaces. Solid core works to me but on the other hand "golden ratio" from Cardas sounds even sexier, plus Cardas headphone wires are fantastic with my HD-650...
For speaker wires I have it easy because Naim Audio insists on using NACA wires for NAP250s and although I did buy a few dozen feet of AQ speaker wires, it is still on my "to do list" to actually try them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it sooo much easier to just follow the suggestions from your favorite manufacturer than going thru the pains of constant doubt and swapping, not knowing if its the wire or solder joint or skin effect, or non-WBT bananas :-) Depends on the mindset, of course. I still have some fond memories of living in a society where everybody knew what is right and which direction to look (all together in one direction of course).
I "laughed my evil laugh" reading an article in my wife's mag (ART Today or such) that it is liberating for The Artist to have some defined boundaries, set by (totalitarian) society, that somehow it "channels" productive genius! Funny how real life crashes such theories. My point here is: I guarantee there is not a single person on this Planet who tried Nordost Valhalla interconnects resoldered for Naim's DIN plugs! I am free to check if they can beat Naim's Hi-Line, but am I going to pay for this non-returnable freedom? Sorry, but No
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Having contacted my favorite manufacturer their recommendations still leave the decision to me. Although making suggestions on which cable is in their opinion most "synergetic" with their brand it is also made known that the final word has to come from the listener as every cable has its minor differences and every ear is different. So manufacturers recommends are no different than everybodys who answers these type of threads. |
I tried 10 gauge solid copper wire. Hated it! |
Not often discussed... The benefits of both solid and stranded? Litz cables. Solid core gets rid of the harshness, but has a way to dull the leading edge a bit. Stranded with its weaknesses, makes the highs harsher, giving the illusion of greater detail.
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Perhaps another way of looking at the cable issue is not only the stranded vs. solid core subject, but the purity of the conductors being used. As I upgraded power cords, and interconnects in my system, I moved toward purer conductors with as much of an air type dielectric as possible so pure conductor has a greater influence on the sound than the dielectric surrounding it.
Most of us have experienced the debate about well...silver is bright and copper is mellow blah, blah, blah. IMHO, silver, copper and gold or hybrids of those sound a certain way mainly due to conductor purity (lack of grain boundaries in the metal) and dielectric quality where the dielectric is predominantly air freeing the cable to direct the signal from component to component and then ultimately to the speakers.
If you want to experiment with this and minimize the financial impact of doing so, go to used cables.com. They have an extensive lending library enabling you to listen, in your system to various cables. Your ears get to be the arbiter of truth!
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IMHO, I still say cables are system dependant. So many variables.
I do have a question, does anyone know if MIT is solid or stranded?
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nutty,
Probably the best example of that was the near insistence of Wilson Audio dealers to mate Wilsons with Transparent Cables. That assertion was supported by the professional press as well.
In my case, as a long-term Vandersteen speaker owner I was motivated to go with Audioquest speaker cables as they were said to have a special synergy with Richard's designs.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wirenote the paragraph: The effect of speaker wire upon the signal it carries has
been a much-debated topic in the audiophile and high fidelity worlds. The
accuracy of many advertising claims on these points has been disputed by expert
engineers who emphasize that simple electrical resistance is by far the most
important characteristic of speaker wire.
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In the end, as with all things audio, trust your ears! If you are a cable skeptic, borrow several designs that lie within your wire budget, from The Cable Company library and hear what you hear. Act on what your ears tell you to be the truth, not manufacture's advertising copy.
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I have not done any experiments/testing with speaker cable, but I will say that solid core has won every test I have done for both interconnects and power cords. I hand-build all of my power cords and interconnects. Test with both stranded and solid core. Shielded/non shielded. Braided. What I have found with stranded is that the sound becomes a little messier/muddier. What I believe is happening is that the outer strands of a bundle are first to be charged by an incoming signal/waveform. It take a little time for the charge on the outside strands to reach the innermost strand (which are charged by contact). By this point, the outer strands have already discharged, so the innermost strands have somewhat of a delay on the charge/discharge. This creates a sort of delay or echo on the original waveform. This can make the high frequencies brighter or harsher. When handling solid core, the gauge of the wire is critical. There is a fine line on a balance. I have found that 20awg is the best overall to use in any situation (either power cord or interconnect). As you increase the size of the wire awg, the bass waveforms becomes punchier and push harder. At the same time, the high frequencies start to roll off and you get a very lo-fi type of sound. If you go smaller than 20awg (such as 22awg), you start to lose bass/midbass body and the higher frequencies become too overstated. I have experienced this both on power cords and interconnects. Power cords with 18awg or 16 awg will not have enough high frequency detail. I tried a power cord using 22awg solid core and I got extreme amounts of high frequency detail, but there was not enough bass/body. It made the audio sound very thin. In interconnects, 18awg rolls off too much highs. I have tried combining a 20awg with a 22awg for interconnect and it did give more high detail, but it ended up pushing too much high frequencies and it just did not have enough punch/bass. Finally, braiding seems to be the best way to arrange the wires. I have tried twisting and it doesn’t do anything. There’s a somewhat unexplainable characteristics that happens with braiding. It calms down the upper mid/high frequencies so that they are not so bright. It also seems to reveal a bit more midbass body. Shielding (like braided copper shielding) will achieve somewhat the same thing, but it tends to want to roll off the high frequencies instead of just calming them down. On my interconnects (which are all XLR), I use 2 braids of 20awg to give a total 17awg interconnect. For power cords, I use 6 braids of 20awg to get a final 12awg cord. All using Neotech 20awg OCC copper Teflon coated solid-core hookup wire. (Yes, OCC is better than OFC). The Kimber stuff is probably the best equivalent that is on the market. It is stranded, but each varistrand bundle is only 7 strands, so there really is only one inner strand. The braiding also helps. Right now, I’m using 12awg stranded OFC copper (basic monster cable) for speaker wire, but I have been curious about trying the Neotech NES-3002 speaker wire. It uses all OCC solid core wire that is individually insulated. Based on the number of wires in the pictures, it seems to use 21awg solid core. Shown at the bottom of this page: http://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html You can click on the picture to see wire detail. |
@auxinput
I am curious if you have tried the Neotech NES-3002 as speaker wire? I am contemplating using Neotech for a DIY speaker cable I want to build. I am leaning towards solid core and the Neotech stuff seems to be the consensus choice for solid individually insulated.
One big question is how flexible is this stuff. Being solid core, I would anticipate the cables get very stiff eventually (bend solid core copper it gets firm).
The other question I have is bi-wiring this stuff? It looks like a good choice for bi-wiring?
thanks, |
I recommend you look at the very informative Cardas Audio website. |
If you want to experiment with braided sold core speaker cables on the cheap, get some plenum cat 5 to play with.. It has Teflon insulation, which is nice. |
Sorry, I have not tried out the NES-3002 yet. It might be a while (maybe next year) before I get time/money to try it. I'm working through some room acoustic experiments right now (diffusion panels, membrane bass traps, etc.). The NES-3002 is a 9AWG cable. You can definitely split half of the wires out for a bi-wire speaker - giving you a 12awg connection to each bi-wire point. Since I haven't worked with the NES-3002, I can't comment on the stiffnes. You should email Chris as VH Audio if you have any questions. He's happy to answer anything you need. |
audiofreak...boy am I with you.... I got ClearDay double shotgun bi-wire for my Vandersteens, and my word....a jaw dropping clearing of fog. I’m very pleased with it...tried very many cables, but ClearDay (top of the line Wireworld sounds just about identical, but with a bit more ease) is nearly at the top for me.
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auxinput.....I too am using XLR balanced interconnect and find that there is much greater differences with speaker cable....your thoughts?
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HiFiman5.....you didn't say what Vandersteens you have ....mine are 5A's and found Audioquest Everest/MontBlanc to be excellent, but to these ears, ClearDay cables work better for me. (WmLowe versions were not good at all in my system)
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stringreen - I have Treo CTs with two 2wq subs. Bet your 5A’s are sweet. You certainly tried some high-priced spreads from the AQ stable. Glad to hear you found cables you like (ClearDay) I have never heard a system wired with ClearDay. Good to know there are other brands out there that mate synergistically with Vandys.
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@stringreen - sorry, I am still using double-runs of 12awg stranded OFC copper for speaker wire (basic monster cable or stuff from Monoprice - or any equivalent source). I find this excellent and neutral speaker wire. It is actually much better than some lower end exotics (like some Nordost Blue Heavens and other "under $1k" cables). It’s also much better than silver-plated, in my opinion. In fact, I avoid anything silver. Just one tiny element like putting in a silver-plated fuse clip or a silver based fuse will change the sound -- silver will push the upper mids/highs and make the sound more artificial. The ultra-high frequencies will be smoothed out and everything else is smoother too. Not neutral, in my opinion. I have put all my R&D in power cable and interconnect for the last few years. I have just converted everything I have over to Rhodium plated Furutech (all power cord connectors, fuses, and XLR connectors). My 20awg solid-core braided interconnects used to have gold-plated XLR connectors. Moving these to Rhodium made them the best interconnects I have ever heard. These are absolutely amazing!!! Speaker cable R&D is on my list, but I won’t get to it for a while. However, I will start with the Neotech NES-3002. It will probably be raw copper wire at the amp end and I will probably use Furutech Rhdium spades at the speaker end (they are all bi-wire and some of my speakers do not have a "wire hole" for raw wire). I have also noticed that the terminations that some of these manufacturers put on speaker cable really degrade the sound. I have found that, on some cable, chopping off the termination and stripping to bare wire improved the sound tremendously!!!. Not that I am telling you to chop off the ends of several-hundred dollar cables (resale value), but it may make a difference if you choose to. |
I have also noticed that the terminations that some of these manufacturers put on speaker cable really degrade the sound. I have found that, on some cable, chopping off the termination and
stripping to bare wire improved the sound tremendously!!!. My experience parallels that statement. I'm in the middle of trying a few different speaker cables for my new Focal 1008be2's. I didn't have the same connectors on one pair and noticed that I had to use the balance control to center the image. I changed the connectors to the same style and make and voila. Rock steady center image with the balance control centered. |
Solid core vs stranded, but what do you think about coated strands, like the ones proposed by jenving supra classics?
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Took a quick look at the Jenving stuff. They are just using tinned copper (which can actually be cheaper than OFC copper). It's a plated coating on the copper to prevent oxidation. It's true that tin is not as conductive as copper, but it is still conductive. Look at the following: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/On%20the%20Conductivity%20of%20Selected%20Metals.pdf Copper conductivity is 59,77. Many products (such as terminations) using different types of plating to affect the sound. They may be less conductive, but they still work well. For example, Gold plating (at 42,55) gives you more of a laid back sound. While Rhodium (at 22,17) which is much less conductive will actually give you faster more detailed sound. Brass at a very low 14,94 will transfer a lot of current and be very strong/forward. You'll also see Nickel plating used in a lot of industrial connectors. I still think there is some cross-conductivity in the Jenving tin-plated strands. It's my opinion that they are just giving you a marketing statement to get you to buy their cheap tinned copper cable. If you really want true coated strands, look at Cardas Litz wire. Each Cardas strand is actually coated with enamel, which completely prevents any conductivity between the strands. This is good and does exactly the same thing as solid-core. The strands are typically much thinner at 26awg or smaller. |
Strands don’t have to be 26awg since 18awg copper has 100% skin depth at 20kHz, as I mentioned in previous post. When they are stranded insulated then you will still have skin effect since they are in magnetic field of each other. That’s why they arrange them on hollow tube or flat tape, so that any particular wire is mostly in magnetic field of neighboring strands only, reducing skin effect.
As for purity of the copper - OFC has thousand of crystals per ft while zero crystal copper has one. Impurities reside between crystals. Zero crystal copper has one crystal not because of perfect purity, but because copper is cooled slowly in hot forms preventing crystal formation. |
Solid core here. Tried it 20 years ago, never went back. For clarification iI should mention that my setup consists of -lots of electronics-->a Tact/lyngdorf 300w power amp --> Fostex FE204 fullrange open baffle speakers. The fostex drivers are 25w max/95db/1w drivers. It folllows that these are immensly revealing speakers. Any,even the faintest noise, like hum, switching noise etc are magnified. The "try shouting at your tube amplifier"-phenomena is real indeed.
Anyway, as an old audiophile, i’ve tried them all. The reasonably available anyway. I find that solid core copper cable (2,5mm2) brings a shine, a light in dark areas, a higher resolution, to the sound. Stranded cable sounds grainy, gray, matted etc. I guess part of the reason that Cardas, Litz etc dont market this kind of cable is that that it's too simple. Nothing fancy can be said or done about a simple solid wire. Did I mention that my cable cost about $1 pr metre, (30c pr ft)? Now I did. Not much profit potential in that.
I see that there are a lot of pseudo-metallurgists in this thread. I have nothing to contribute in that direction, and i dare to say that neither has most of these other contributors as well.
In other forums that i frequently visit, an assertion requires sources. A psysicist would indeed be very interested in the theories about the movement of electrons in and between the crystals of copper mentioned in this thread |
Wow I'm impressed by all the discussion on this subject and with the objective responses. I must say I'm pleased with the education I'm getting. It looks like there is an equal representation of enthusiasts in both camps. Very recently I aquired a new amp and processor and for change of pace went back to stranded cables. Although pleased with the experience I'm now thinking of going back to solid just to see how it interacts with the new equipment. This is a mixed bag of exitement as I am looking forward to audition the solid but dread the effort required to attain it. Solid is really difficult to work with.
Thank you all for keeping this thread alive. Keep your experiences coming as it will help all audio crazies
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I can't say I ever used completely solid cable, but I would suppose solid cable is actually *single strand* cable. Point is, there isn't just two choices of solid and stranded. Cable which is "stranded" is available in many extremely thin and frail strands to few and relatively thicker stands, which in a sense is a compromise between "solid" and "stranded". |
Audioquest’s spread spectrum technology is a great example, gdhal. |
Audioquest controls directionality of all of their cables, stranded, solid core, whatever. Audioquest also controls directionality of their power cords which, as far as I know, are always stranded. Audioquest’s choice of the term spread spectrum is rather odd given what spread spectrum actually is.
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Ok, I'll bite! What is the geoffkait definition of "spread spectrum"?🤔 |
The Geoff Kait and the real definition of spread spectrum is a special communications technique for hiding information in Noise, requiring a coder on send end and decoder on receive end. It’s what the big boys use. You know, so the info will be uh, secret. Spread spectrum is also a very effective method for any type of communications. You can spread it, you can hop it, you can fast hop it.
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Then AQ is using the term more as a marketing technique for employing cable strands of various gauges in their higher end speaker cables implying that in doing so, the varying gauges will more effectively propagate signals of different frequencies.
They are not invoking the true meaning of "spread spectrum" unless they are implying that by using the varied strand gauges technique that their cables can transmit information that would otherwise be hidden in the noise?? |
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