Small room, "budget priced" speaker advice, please
Hi,
I recently sold my dearly beloved, old Vandersteen 2C's here on Audiogon (and I hope SgtPeppers is loving them at this moment!) :-) I did this because in our remodeled house, my new listening room (which will double as a guest room) is just too small for the 2C's. The Spousal Acceptance Factor was just too low. ;-)
I have a PS Audio Elite-Plus integrated amp for power (around 70 W/Ch) and a soon-to-be-shipped-off-for-a-refurb Sota Sapphire for an analog front end (I have "miles" of vinyl)! I will also get a CD player at some point.
For now, I need to find a pair of best-of-breed, truly "budget" speakers. By "budget," I'm talking upper limit of $850/pair. (Gone are my free-spending, single days... I'm a dad now...) :-)
Listening habits: lots of 60's and 70's folk and rock, some jazz, Donald Fagen/Steely Dan, a little classical. Listening volume: not too loud. Sonic preferences: I value transparency and imaging/soundstage. Bass should be accurate above all, as opposed to chest-pounding powerful.
I've looked at Paradigms, which I know are highly regarded at lower price points. Trouble is, our one, local dealer is primarily a TV/home theater outfit, so you're trying to hear them in a showroom crammed with other stuff... you know the drill. I've also hit a high end shop. Listened to a pair of PSB small towers and disliked them; they sounded muddy and veiled to me. Listened to a pair of the smallest Rega's and liked them quite a bit, but would want to go back to listen again. I even wrote to PS Audio for advice; they recommended the "baby" Epos monitors, but they're out of my price range.
Thanks if you've read this far. Knowing how subjective all this is, I'd still welcome any advice you have to offer about what I should try to audition.
I was wondering if you know whether the Ohms you heard were original (series 1 which first arrived in the early 80's), series 2, which I think started in the early-mid 90's through ~ 2005 or 2006, or series 3, which have only been available for a couple of years?
Reason I ask is I owned series 1 prior to my current 2 pair which are both series 3, and there is a huge difference in imaging accuracy. Imaging accuracy in the new series 3 is competitive with anything out there today despite the omni design in my opinion whereas series 1 was not nearly as well defined. Never heard series 2 so I can't comment on those, but from what I have read they are somewhere in between.
Unfortunately, it is not always possible to tell by observation alone in that the cages on all three generations look very similar if not the same. My series 3 Walsh 2's look identical to the series 1 I owned prior.
My system was purchased in the mid-1980s... it was what I guess you could call an entry-level high-end system in those days! The original equipment included the PS Audio Elite Plus integrated amplifier, a turntable that I think went by the name of Systemdeck (it had a glass platter and a pathetic suspension system... just walking around the hardwood floors in my listening room would cause the stylus to skip) paired with a Linn Basik tone arm. And, of course, the Vandersteen 2C (not any of the later upgrades, but the original model).
I later upgraded some things. I replaced the Aperture wire speaker connects with Monster Cable Powerline to2 and replaced the turntable with a SOTA Sapphire. Along the way, I added a Tandberg tuner and a Luxman cassette deck.
As I explained in my opening post of this thread, a home remodel and a much smaller listening room, as well as perilously low "wife acceptance factor" for the Vandersteens in the new listening room (which also has to double as a guest bedroom) led me to sell the Vandersteens here on Audiogon.
Actually, my wife and I are joking that she did me a favor in lobbying me to get rid of the Vandersteens, because the experience of shopping for speakers and connecting with this website has led me back into audio as a hobby, and I've really rediscovered the pleasures of all this... it combines the best of gadgetry, music and obsessive-compulsive personality. :-)
I've gotten to spend several hours in local stereo shops, which has been lots of fun. I also had the opportunity to purchase my first new piece of stereo equipment in over 20 years: a Music Hall 25.2 CD player. I don't have anything to hook it up to yet, but it sure looks nice! ;-) (Yes, I was a vinyl holdout until recently. I have "miles" of vinyl, and a growing collection of CDs, as well.)
Right now, my turntable is at SOTA being tuned up. Between whatever that will cost, plus new speaker cables, plus loudspeakers, I don't think a new amp is in the cards right now... maybe someday soon, though.
My pleasure. Again, as I stated earlier, Ohms are not for everyone, which is a shame.
Was at my favorite local dealer yesterday auditioning CD players. Heard a pair of nice Usher monitors ($2-3 grand I believe) on Cambridge Audio 840c, Audio Research tube pre, Rogue Tube power amp. My toes were tapping. Very full soundstage + very fine performance overall.
The dealer also sells Maggies and Totems. I think I saw the Arros but didn't have a chance to listen.
My recollections of Totem monitors when I heard them years ago is that they were one of the best small box designs in regards to overall performance, sound stage and imaging though.
I heard a pair of small VAndy's loosely in NYC recently at low volume only. My impression was that the presentation was not unlike what I hear with Ohms.
They are not omnis or even pseudo-omnis, like the Ohms, or a box design, but am I correct thinking they are somewhat unique in how they do their imaging from most dynamic box designs?
I'm speculating a bit here because I have not really investigated the Vandy design, only heard them briefly.
I'd also go out on a limb a bit and say that Vandy users also often take well to Ohms and omni designs and vice versa, which leads me to believe that you might as well.
Maybe some other Ohm or Vandy owners could chirp in here?
Well, guys, if he likes Totem (and I do too) I don't think mating Triangles with a SS PS Audio amp is such a good idea. If it was me, and I know no one is asking, I'd dump the PS Audio pronto and get a PrimaLuna 70W KT88 based integrated, mate that with Totem Model One speakers, maybe some Audience wire, keep the Sota, etc. Everything off the used market. Just an idea...BTW, Rebbi, what is your entire system, wire included?
You know, oddly enough, I'd never considered the 1C. My old speakers were the very original Vandy 2C's (not CE or any of the later versions). My wife never liked the Vandy "look," though, and I'd have to see if she'd tolerate these smaller models! LOL! But it's an interesting suggestion. Thanks.
This is all very useful and you are very generous and patient to lay it all out in such detail. Thanks! You nailed it on the head: clearly, this is quite a different listening experience than one would get with a box design, and question is whether I have the nerve to try it or not! :-) I'll look for your audiogon review, too.
Small room, "budget priced" speaker advice, please Greetings Rebbi Why not just look into a pair of the latest Black Vandersteen 1Cs They can work with the best of em, easy to drive,are still Phase/Time aligned and disappear like your 2CE. Later you can add a powered 2WQ in the corner and have a superb world class quality system that runs with the Vandy level 2 series Best John Rutan
Imaging/location may or may not be an issue. The imaging is different than that from box dynamic designs. That alone could be an issue for many.
Sound from omnis (and Ohms) emanate and interact with the room much more like sound does in a live performance rather than the way it does with other speaker designs. Thats what makes the Ohms special. What you hear more resembles what you would hear at a live performance, from various listening locations, more so than conventional speaker designs.
However, it may take your ears some time to adjust to this if they are trained (as many audio buffs ears are from experience) to hearing conventional box designs.
If you are the type who pays attention to room acoustics at live performances, I'd say it should not be an issue once your ears adjust to the Ohms in your room. Once they do, magic happens and everything is laid out clearly before you, strikingly much like a live performance.
Amplification can make a huge difference. You also have to learn to not focus on the speakers themselves while listening because the soundstage is utterly transparent and can be totally disassociated from the actual speaker location, depending on placement and acoustics.
In my review of the Ohms here on Agon, I relate how the Ohms act as a sort of "sound projector" more than speakers. Take a look at that for more info.
It's interesting that when I changed amps from a Carver to a Musical Fidelity, the sound stage opened up so much and in such an unexpected way relative to the actual location of the speakers, that even my ears, which were adapted prior, were totally thrown off and confused for a bit.
I have a very difficult room shape to deal with. The room is L shaped. The Ohms are located a couple of feet out from the rear wall at the base of the L, and located to fire into the length of the room, which is the main listening area. The Ohms are about 3-4 feet apart but location is skewed ~ 30% or so to the right of center. Yet, when listening about 4-5 feet dead center in front of both Ohms, the center of the sound stage is located dead center between the two side walls and extending 10' in each direction to the side walls on good recordings. Mono recordings all came from dead center between the side walls, about 3 feet to the left of the left -most speaker (yes, to the left of BOTH speakers, believe it or not)! Never heard anything like this before, so I did not recognize it at first! Once I tuned in again, though, audio nirvana! A 20' wide sound stage with the speaks only ~ 3-4 feet apart and the ability to locate every instrument, voice and recording line clearly and precisely.
My Dynaudio monitors ($2500 retail a few years back) image extremely well for a box design as well, but they do not have the Ohm's "you are there" factor.
Bottom line: the imaging works differently with Ohms and omnis. Some may not like it because it IS different and takes some getting used to at first. But, in my opinion, once everything is set up properly and your ears locked in, nothing can beat it, especially at the $1000 price point.
Its low risk to try the Ohms, but if this all sounds to way out there or scary to you, you will probably be very happy with the Totems. THey are a very good choice for a conventional box design in your price range.
Or if this all sounds interesting and the chance of discovering something totally different that can take things to a higher level for $1000 sounds intriguing, give'em a try.
Good luck and please continue to keep us posted whichever way you go.
What about the imaging issue, Mapman? Do you find that you can locate instruments and singers in space, or is the presentation more "vague" with the Ohm's? I'm trying to imagine how imaging would work with the speakers radiating sound all over the place. And "good" imaging is to me one of the nicest hi-fi pleasures.
I've toyed on occasion with the idea of replacing my Dynaudios, which are a pretty decent set of highly accurate monitors, with Ohm micros. Reason being that they are a very good monitor speakers that do most everything very well, but in the end, the Ohm Walsh design convincingly deliver sound like a live performance in my listening room to me whereas the Dynaudios and my other box speakers (Triangles and Ohm Ls) all in the end always end up sounding like just "very good stereo speakers", if that makes any sense.
I keep the Dynaudios mainly because I still like having a pair of nice monitors around for the many things they do well, even though in the end I always levitate back to the Ohm Walshs for the best performance whenever I can. Also I like variety and I figure 3 pair of speaks with the same design, no matter how good, might be a bit too much.
The only full range speakers I hear anymore that will catch my ear tend to be extremely big, massive, and way too expensive for a guy like me with two kids still to send to college. And I'm still not certain even with these that, everything properly set up, they can do what the Ohms do.
Ohms, omnis and other more exotic speaker designs are not for everyone, for sure. Its largely a matter of taste. For ~$1000, though, they do offer something completely different than the various box designs available in that range.
Yes. I've owned Ohms since ~ 1978 and currently have 3 pair, Walsh 5 Series 3, Walsh 100 Series 3 and Ohm Ls. Also own Dynaudio and Triangle. Also owned Maggie and B&W in the past.
Never heard Micro Walshes specifically but have researched them along with the rest of the current Ohm line pretty extensively.
The Ohm micro Walsh's would seem to be in line performance-wise with the other speaker models you've considered for your room.
I think Ohm says the micro's can work most rooms, whereas the larger Walsh line drivers are spec'ed to room size. Low end should be optimal with micro's in smaller rooms though, I believe.
John Strohbeen has a good reputation for making valid recommendations with his line based on how the buyer describes their room to him, I would say.
I have heard the Ohms and they sound very different to me than the Arros. The Arros throw a coherent (perhaps even etched) sound field across a broad area, but instrument and voice placement are fairly precise within the sound stage. The Ohms on the other hand throw a more "natural" sound field that relies a lot on reflection and so is less "coherent" than the Arros. In fact, critically listening to the Ohms, I had a hard time pinpointing instrument placement in their sound field compared with most any dynamic loudspeaker I can think of.
I prefer the Arros' presentation, but because of their relative precision, I think they are less forgiving of electronics upstream than the Ohms. Comes down to a matter of choice. I have a close friend who loves his Ohms and has two different pairs (including the talls) as a part of his home entertainment system.
Thank you. I spoke to John, the owner, and he recommended the Talls. He said that they will reproduce everything but the deepest pipe organ or synth notes, and would sound good in a room my size. Have you heard the Ohms, yourself?
If you think a live performance would sound good in your room, and are up for trying something a little different in order to achieve live-like sound from a small, affordable design, and like the idea of saving a couple c-bills perhaps, definitely try the Walsh first. The smaller mini's should not take too long to break in. If they don't float your boat, return them and go for the Totems.
I am definitely leaning toward getting the Arro at this point. I have noticed, however, that the Ohm Micro Walsh Tall is often mentioned in the same breath with the Arrow. The Arro will cost me something like $1350 plus tax, because I need it in the black ash finish and I've only seen it here used in mahogany or cherry. The Ohm is currently on sale, direct from the manufacturer (and they even give you for months to decide whether or not you want to keep it). It is $1000, shipping included, until the end of next week. Like the Arrow, the Micro Tall really is a tiny little thing, a 6" x 6" tower that stands only 33 inches high. But from all of the reviews I've seen, it shares a lot of the Totem's virtues, including a huge soundstage with a very broad "sweet spot" and surprisingly good bass, provided it is used in a small to medium sized room.
If you have heard the Walsh Micro, whether or not you have a basis for comparing it to the Totem, I would love to hear what you think. People who have the Walsh Micro seem to be extremely devoted to it.
I've never done any serious listening to the Arros, but I did audition the Preludes (at HE2007 in NYC). For their size and price, they are very impressive. Huge, 3-D soundstage, subwoofer-like bass extension, and clean, smooth, extended highs. They are not, IMO, pinpoint imagers, but for a smaller room and modestly powered amp, I think they are ideal. Not knocking the Arros, but I simply haven't heard them. The only speaker I like more than the Preludes (that I've heard) in their price range, is the DCM TFE200 ($1K/pr). But they are physically too large for your room. The only downside to Silverline products is trying to get a demo. I would contact Alan at Silverline Audio. If he cannot recommend a dealer, he may be able to connect you with an owner in your area. Perhaps for the price of a dinner (pizza and beer?), you can get an audition from an owner, then, if you like them, order from Silverline directly. But be careful: Silverline is not an online retailer with a 30-day return option!
I considered the classic 3's. Problem is that the one local dealer who used to stock NHT dropped the whole line from their store. Also, I eventually decided to go with a small floor-stander rather than getting something that needed stands.
I have been enjoying a pair of NHT Classic 3's. Very interesting speaker in that it is a 3 way in such a small enclosure. Great detail and clarity. Sounds very big for the physical size.
Well, I think it's come down to either the Arro's or the Silverline Preludes. (I was also considering the Quad 21L2, but I've read some user threads online expressing frustration that they need to be a good foot or two off the back wall or the soundstaging collapses.)
Anybody here actually own or have a good listen to the Preludes? Advice?
Rebbi: I think some of the units can be bought premade, either from NC or Lee Taylor. Believe it used to be so, anyway -- you could email NC. But a kit might be worth considering: the crossovers for the kits come preassembled, so if Lee Taylor builds you the boxes the assembly, esp. for the simpler designs, is the work of a few hours, and requires no special technical acumen. Could get you into something pretty nice at your price point, brand new. George is a nice and smart guy, as is Lee; I expect you'd not regret giving a call, in any event. John
North Creek does a number of small room, near wall specific designs. (northcreekmusic.com). George Short of NC, and Lee Taylor, who builds his cabinets, are both very helpful. I enjoy my North Creek Eskas.
Thank you for the clarification! I'd emailed PS Audio earlier and they said "As long as the amp is in good shape and the room is moderately sized you should not have any problems driving those speakers. Personally I am a fan of the entire Dynaudio line. In any case let us know how it goes once you make a decision."
While the overall consensus after doing a bunch of research here on Audiogon is that the Arro's are remarkable speakers for a very fair price (especially in the transparency/imaging/soundstage arena) I have also read posts suggesting that they are overly bright and rather bass-shy, and may also be hard to drive. So I'm wondering if any of that is likely to be a problem for me with that PS Audio Elite Plus integrated amp at 70 watts/channel.
Well, I may very go with the Arro's, then. There are several pairs currently on sale on A'gon for well under $1000, already broken in, no less, and the diminutive size should go down well with my significant other. :-)
Quad 21L version 1 are wonderful speakers and great bargain for the money in terms of sound quality and construction details. I have not heard but have read that the version two is even better than the version one in terms of improved detail, neutrality and stereo imaging. I recommend these speakers without reservation, particularly if the price is below $1000 (better hurry).
One note: they are not that tall but are 8" wide by 10" deep floor standing speakers if that matters for your application. One reason I mentioned the Arros is that they are a narrower tower. Both speakers are really fantastic - can't go wrong...
If you are going to consider a jump up to the Silverline Prelude, then I heartily recommend the Totem Arro as a alternate slender floorstander in the same price category. The Arro is one of Totem's best sounding speakers, period. And it comes with a beautiful real wood veneer cabinet... And you might be able to find a pair used...
I read a whole bunch of reviews of the Silverline Minuets online, and they are uniformly extraordinarily positive, especially given the size and price of those speakers. I'm very interested in getting to hear them, if I can, but I can't find a dealer list anywhere, and nobody here in Austin seems to carry them. Does anybody know of a dealer in Central Texas who might have them, or if Silverline themselves sells them direct?
I think this is a great suggestion. I guess I really ought to wait until my turntable is back from being refurbished, then I can do some serious listening in my own room, if some of the local dealers are willing to lend me samples overnight.
Rebbi, May I suggest to you that since you have fairly easy accessibility to the majority of these speakers, you might want to try a couple of pairs in the room that you'll be listening.
In most cases, these stores will have a day in which they're closed. They should let you bring a pair home for that day/evening. You may be surprised as to the characteristics of these speakers utilizing YOUR power, YOUR amplification, and YOUR listening environment. That would probably provide the most accurate indicator of their performance in "real world" usage.
Thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately you can't listen to the Ascends before you buy them because they're direct order from the manufacturer, but their return policy up to 30 days is very generous, and the reviews are uniformly ecstatic. So I'm intrigued. Thanks for the tip.
I did get over to Whetstone, and Brian is a very nice guy. But the only speakers he could show me in my price range (which has now edged up to "under 1000 bucks") were the Rega R3's, which I liked "enough," but not as much as some of the other equipment I've heard.
Well, I got to listen to the little B & W CM-1 speakers today. Which leads me to ask the following, philosophical question: Why is it that home theater show rooms are such hopelessly lousy places to audition speakers? There is only one dealer here in Austin that seems to carry the B & W's, and they are a home theater chain called "Modia." They have the speakers literally on bookshelves, practically up against the wall. That was in one showroom. In another showroom, they had them on a very high shelf, separated a ridiculous distance from each other, with a bunch of other speakers in between, and a keypad that the salesman uses to select which speakers are playing. Given all those impediments the serious listening, the only real impression I could get was that those tiny little boxes (which are amazingly heavy, by the way) pump out some serious bass energy. Other than that, I really can't tell you much about what I heard, unfortunately. By the way, the Absolute Sound reviewer made a big deal out of how these speakers do a "disappearing act." But with the ridiculously crappy listening conditions in the store, you'd never know it. Additionally, I asked the sales guy if there was any way he could take a pair of the speakers off the shelves and put them up on stands so I could hear them at listening height. He said, "No, sorry." So I think it's between the Rainmaker and the Dynaudios.
Rebbi, the Austin shop is Whetstone audio: http://www.whetstoneaudio.com/
Brian is really great, he hooked me up with my Cyrus gear - maybe try some of his offerings. BTW, I've tried all of the speakers mentioned so far (and like many of them), but the Ohms still rate higher IMO :) Seriously though, you're auditioning some nice speakers... have fun!
Thanks for the reference. The TAS article notes the CM1 has a sensitivity of 84db. I have listened to them powered by a 50W/ch NAD amp (fairly lifeless and dull combination) and a 500W/ch Rotel switching amp, and the latter really got them up on a plane. For that reason, these may not be the best choice for your application. I suggest auditioning the CM1's through something similar to your PS Audio amplifier in terms of power and current and comparing that to a much higher power unit to see whether you would be under powering them at 70W. I think the Totem Rainmaker (87.5db) or Dynaudio Audience 42 (86db) might be a better match, even running at 4 ohms. Curious to hear your perspective after listening.
Hi! I did find a home theater shop that carries the B & W's, and I'll try to get over there today. TAS raved about them, and the reviewer praised the qualities that I value the most, so I'll have a listen. Finally got to hear a pair of Rega R3's at another audio shop yesterday. They sounded way, way better than the R1's I'd heard at a different dealer, but the bass, on his setup, was kind of muddy and indistinct. By the way, I wrote back to PS Audio to ask about my Elite Plus's ability to drive 4 ohm speakers. They said that if the amp was in good shape (it should be) and the room was of moderate size, I should have no trouble driving Totems, Dynaudios, etc.
I have heard Triangles and compared them carefully to the Dynaudio Audience line - I clearly preferred the Dynaudios. Maybe it was due to cheap electronics (NAD separates) or the Triangles not being broken in yet. Dunno.
I have listened to the Totems several times and compared them directly to Epos and Naim speakers with Rega, Naim and Musical Fidelity electronics. I generally prefer the Totems, but it was very close in this contest.
I have heard the Devores and compared them to the budget Quads and Regas listening through Naim and Rega electronics and preferred them in this order: Devore, Quad (close second) and Rega. The Devores were a lot more money than the Quads (2x), so they better sound better.
I have not heard the Kudos or AVIs.
For how you described your tastes and needs, and how you described your listening experience, I would think that you would be very happy with the Totem Rainmakers. Or you might consider a used pair of Totem Arros (ususally around $700 - $800). I think they image even better than the Rainmakers if you have any space on your floor for a very slender box (speaking of Dianna Krall - she supposedly owns/owned a pair of these).
One last note - does anybody carry the B&W CM1's in your area? I love these little speakers too - although they may require more grunt to really make them sing.
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