Buscis2:
That's a good question about the room dimensions. I'll take the measurements and post back. Right now it's a pretty hard room: windows on three of four walls, and hardwood floors. However it'll become a bit softer soon. There will be a "day bed" couch on the wall opposite the speakers, as well as some shades on the windows and a second piece of soft furniture on one side. |
Okay:Room dimensions, approximately: 8 ft. ceiling, 15 feet wide, 13 feet deep. Speakers would be by the long wall. |
I see a lot of enthusiasm for the Triangles and Totems. I'm not sure if anybody retails the Triangles here in Austin, TX. How do you find out? The Triangle website is pretty useless in that regard. |
Wow, thanks for the response. Yes, there will be some room dampening.... curtains and a carpet, at least. And yes, you nailed something important, this can't be a speaker that demands being placed 3 feet from the back wall... I don't have that kind of space.
I went to the upscale audio website and couldn't find the heliade es... is "Heliade" the manufacturer or the model? |
Hi, Rar1,
Tell me more about the Rega R1 or R3. I went to hear the R1 at a local dealer. I liked the way they sounded, but (and I know this is silly) that paper cone midrange driver looked like something out of a 1960's transistor radio. Is the quality really there?
I'm definitely thinking sealed box or front-firing port at this point... I am not going to be able to put these speakers far out from the wall. |
Turns out there's a local dealer here who carries Totem. I'll have to get over there and listen. :-) |
Thank you all for your enormous help. You've pointed me toward choices that wouldn't have known existed! I found dealers for Triangle, Rega, Usher and Totem all in my area. I'll have some auditioning fun and report back! :-) |
Hi, Ed, LOL! Well, I'll have to give your pronunciation tips a try, although I doubt that it will gain me much "cred" here in Texas... :-) I have found local dealers for Usher (got an appointment there tomorrow evening) and Totem. Don't know of anyone here who carries "tree-on-jell" locally, however. I did get a chance to hear a pair of Dynaudio Audience 42's today at the same dealer that carries Rega. They blew the Rega R1 away... for an extra $250/pair. Wondering what you guys think of them... |
Yes, the Dynaudio's were at Audio Systems. It seems that they no longer carry Triangle, though. I didn't see any in the shop, and it's no longer listed on their web site as a product they carry.
I was wondering if the Dynaudio's, at 4 ohms, would demand a better, more powerful amp than I have. I've got that PS Audio Elite Plus with 70 watts per channel. Do you guys think that would cut it?
Anyway, I'm off to hear the baby Usher's tonight... that should be fun. All this time spent in audio shops is taking me back to my youth! :-D
By the way, FWIW, Audio Systems doesn't keep the Rega R3's in stock, but will special order them. Seems that they think they've got better choices at the $1000 price point. |
Addendum about the Triangles: I'd emailed Upscale Audio about the Triangle Heliade, which they currently have on sale. Here's what he said:
"I don't know of any magazine reviews of the Heliades, sorry. The Heliade is
going to be very different compared to the 2Cs... not as much bass, and will
have quite a bit more extension in the highs. Triangles are very fast, and
image like no other, but can be a little hot on top especially when breaking
in. They do settle down a little after burn in, however they still maintain
a pretty extended top end."
I am very much intrigued by Upscale's sale prices on the Triangles right now, but I don't think I can deal with buying something I've never heard online, even with all the great recommendations from you guys. ;-) |
Buscis2,
I think this is a great suggestion. I guess I really ought to wait until my turntable is back from being refurbished, then I can do some serious listening in my own room, if some of the local dealers are willing to lend me samples overnight. |
Well, I got to listen to Totems and Ushers today!
I heard both the Totem Dreamcatcher and Rainmaker, both at Austin Home Theater.
The Dreamcatcher, which is the smaller one, (tiny would be a better word) sounded wonderful. The sound is completely "out-of-the-box;" the soundstage is huge and there is no sense that you are listening to a couple of boxes. Even bass response is impressive for the size. The dealer put on a Diana Krall CD track featuring a very "upfront" acoustic bass and some finger snapping... that's all... sorry I can't remember the name of the track. In any case, the sense of presence and realism of the upright bass was astonishing, again, given the size of the speakers.
Even though the Rainmaker is currently just under $1000, i.e., about $150 over my budget, I asked to listen to them as long as I was in the showroom. If the Dreamcatchers are "wonderful," then I guess that makes the Rainmakers "magical." Again, that ENORMOUS soundstage, with beautiful, detailed highs and excellent imaging. They seem to have the same "DNA" as their baby brothers, but with more "air" and detail. I was very impressed.
Tonight, I also got to listen to the "baby" Ushers at a small dealer here in Austin called Tube Dreams (he also carries Totem, by the way). The associated equipment was all, as you would guess from the name of the dealership, very high-end tube stuff, including a Cary CD player with a tube output stage. I mention this because it's obviously hard to know how much of what I was hearing was attributable to the speakers and how much of what I was hearing was attributable to the associated equipment...
Be that as it may, listening to these tiny Ushers was an extremely interesting experience. Midrange and vocals were silky smooth and gorgeous (again, the speakers or the amplification?)... I spent a good deal of time listening to some James Taylor and definitely had a few of those "wow, he's actually in the room" experiences. I also spent a fair amount of time listening to a variety of cuts from Buena Vista Social Club, and again, the realism and coherence of the voices was fabulous. I joked, "Sounds like a couple of guys singing to me!" What was odd about the speakers, though, was the way they presented the soundstage. The experience was sort of like "looking through a window" BETWEEN the two speakers. In that space, there was a depth and an amazing sense of each instrument or singer having its own place. I can't think of a better word than "coherent." However, and this was the puzzling part, the soundstage did not seem to extend at all beyond or outside of the two speakers. What I heard was gorgeous, but it was all confined to that "in between" space, and I can't figure out what that was about.
All things being equal, at this point I'm leaning toward a Totem Rainmakers, if I can squeeze another $150 or so out of my budget.
By the way, since everybody is so incredibly enthusiastic about the Triangles, I haven't taken them off my list, just yet. But I still get the heebie-jeebies from the thought of buying loudspeakers I've never heard... |
Mapman,
I mentioned to the dealer (very nice guy, by the way) that I was hearing all this depth and imaging between but not beyond the speakers. We tried moving them closer together, toeing them in a tiny bit, and moving the listening position back a foot or two, but it didn't change the soundstage much at all that I could tell. There was definitely magic there, but it was nearly all happening between the speakers, meaning that they never quite did that small monitor vanishing act. I don't know why. I have to say that I agree with what Reina said in Stereophile. There's a real sense of layers of depth there, but I didn't get that "engulfed in sound" experience that the Totems put out.
The Totems are rear ported, the Ushers front ported. He had them way out from the rear wall, mainly because there were a bunch of speakers (not hooked up) behind them. It's a home business and the listening room is not that large. |
There's another dealer here in Austin who handles British speakers from Kudos, Devore and AVI. Anybody have any experience with or knowledge of those? Thanks! |
I read a whole bunch of reviews of the Silverline Minuets online, and they are uniformly extraordinarily positive, especially given the size and price of those speakers. I'm very interested in getting to hear them, if I can, but I can't find a dealer list anywhere, and nobody here in Austin seems to carry them. Does anybody know of a dealer in Central Texas who might have them, or if Silverline themselves sells them direct? |
I heard from Silverline. They'll sell to me direct, and they recommend the Preludes over the Minuets in my system. Hmmm.... |
Knownothing,
Hi! I did find a home theater shop that carries the B & W's, and I'll try to get over there today. TAS raved about them, and the reviewer praised the qualities that I value the most, so I'll have a listen.
Finally got to hear a pair of Rega R3's at another audio shop yesterday. They sounded way, way better than the R1's I'd heard at a different dealer, but the bass, on his setup, was kind of muddy and indistinct.
By the way, I wrote back to PS Audio to ask about my Elite Plus's ability to drive 4 ohm speakers. They said that if the amp was in good shape (it should be) and the room was of moderate size, I should have no trouble driving Totems, Dynaudios, etc. |
By the way, here's the link to that TAS review of the CM-1's:
http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=2476 |
Well, I got to listen to the little B & W CM-1 speakers today. Which leads me to ask the following, philosophical question: Why is it that home theater show rooms are such hopelessly lousy places to audition speakers? There is only one dealer here in Austin that seems to carry the B & W's, and they are a home theater chain called "Modia." They have the speakers literally on bookshelves, practically up against the wall. That was in one showroom. In another showroom, they had them on a very high shelf, separated a ridiculous distance from each other, with a bunch of other speakers in between, and a keypad that the salesman uses to select which speakers are playing.
Given all those impediments the serious listening, the only real impression I could get was that those tiny little boxes (which are amazingly heavy, by the way) pump out some serious bass energy. Other than that, I really can't tell you much about what I heard, unfortunately. By the way, the Absolute Sound reviewer made a big deal out of how these speakers do a "disappearing act." But with the ridiculously crappy listening conditions in the store, you'd never know it. Additionally, I asked the sales guy if there was any way he could take a pair of the speakers off the shelves and put them up on stands so I could hear them at listening height. He said, "No, sorry."
So I think it's between the Rainmaker and the Dynaudios. |
I did get over to Whetstone, and Brian is a very nice guy. But the only speakers he could show me in my price range (which has now edged up to "under 1000 bucks") were the Rega R3's, which I liked "enough," but not as much as some of the other equipment I've heard. |
Newbie13,
Thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately you can't listen to the Ascends before you buy them because they're direct order from the manufacturer, but their return policy up to 30 days is very generous, and the reviews are uniformly ecstatic. So I'm intrigued. Thanks for the tip. |
Knownothing,
Thanks... I'll have to keep a lookout for those Arros... people keep recommending them!
Have you or anybody else heard the Quad 21L2's? Underwood's selling a pair for under $1000.
Also, thanks for your recommendation on another thread of the Music Hall CD player... I ordered mine yesterday! |
Well, I may very go with the Arro's, then. There are several pairs currently on sale on A'gon for well under $1000, already broken in, no less, and the diminutive size should go down well with my significant other. :-) |
Mapman,
Thanks for your good wishes. Audiogon is a great community, and this thread has been a complete education for me. Thanks for your considerable role in this process. :-) |
One concern,
While the overall consensus after doing a bunch of research here on Audiogon is that the Arro's are remarkable speakers for a very fair price (especially in the transparency/imaging/soundstage arena) I have also read posts suggesting that they are overly bright and rather bass-shy, and may also be hard to drive. So I'm wondering if any of that is likely to be a problem for me with that PS Audio Elite Plus integrated amp at 70 watts/channel.
Thanks for any insights! |
Thank you for the clarification! I'd emailed PS Audio earlier and they said "As long as the amp is in good shape and the room is moderately sized you should not have any problems driving those speakers. Personally I am a fan of the entire Dynaudio line. In any case let us know how it goes once you make a decision." |
Jdoris,
Looks like they're all kits, no? |
Well, I think it's come down to either the Arro's or the Silverline Preludes. (I was also considering the Quad 21L2, but I've read some user threads online expressing frustration that they need to be a good foot or two off the back wall or the soundstaging collapses.)
Anybody here actually own or have a good listen to the Preludes? Advice?
Thanks!! |
Larryrx,
I considered the classic 3's. Problem is that the one local dealer who used to stock NHT dropped the whole line from their store. Also, I eventually decided to go with a small floor-stander rather than getting something that needed stands. |
Leatherneck1812,
Yeah, I think it's gonna be the Arros. Problem is, my wife wants me to get 'em in black ash, and all those are in cherry or mahogany. Bummer! ;-) |
Knownothing,
Thanks for the good wishes! You have also given me priceless advice and counsel in this thread. I'm very grateful. The speakers should be here in about a week; the dealer had to order them.
By the way, I ended up buying them from a little dealer here in Austin called Tube Dreams. It's run by a nice guy named Simon Hill. He has a "day job" in the computer industry, but has converted his garage into a showroom and sells audio equipment (lots of pricey tube gear, along with Usher, Totem and other speakers) out of his home. I could've bought the Totems from a home theater outfit here (and they were perfectly nice) but it's clear to me that audio is a labor of love for this guy and I wanted to give him the business. He was even good enough to sweeten the deal when he saw me wavering due to price.
Mapman:
By the way, if I have any lingering regret, it's having not given the Ohm Micro Walsh Tall's a try. I would love to hear them some day (I even posted a message to our neighborhood list-serve to see if anybody knew anybody who had them) but didn't think I had the energy to bring them in, set them up, burn them in, and then deal with returning them if I didn't like them. Although I hadn't had a chance to hear the Arro, the home theater store did have the Dreamcatcher and Rainmaker, and I really liked the sound of both, so at least I had a clue of how the Arros might sound. Also, I thought my wife would like the appearance of the Totems a bit more, plus they're supposed to be very forgiving in terms of room placement. Anyway, at some point you have to make a decision, and since I still have upgrade/refurb decisions to make on my SOTA Sapphire once SOTA calls with their recommendations, I settled on Totem. It's weird
I usually am drawn to unconventional choices when it comes to buying stuff like this (heck, I had an Amiga computer for over 10 years!) but in the case of this speaker decision, I made a "more conventional" choice. Oh, well... |
I am definitely leaning toward getting the Arro at this point. I have noticed, however, that the Ohm Micro Walsh Tall is often mentioned in the same breath with the Arrow. The Arro will cost me something like $1350 plus tax, because I need it in the black ash finish and I've only seen it here used in mahogany or cherry. The Ohm is currently on sale, direct from the manufacturer (and they even give you for months to decide whether or not you want to keep it). It is $1000, shipping included, until the end of next week. Like the Arrow, the Micro Tall really is a tiny little thing, a 6" x 6" tower that stands only 33 inches high. But from all of the reviews I've seen, it shares a lot of the Totem's virtues, including a huge soundstage with a very broad "sweet spot" and surprisingly good bass, provided it is used in a small to medium sized room.
If you have heard the Walsh Micro, whether or not you have a basis for comparing it to the Totem, I would love to hear what you think. People who have the Walsh Micro seem to be extremely devoted to it. |
Mapman,
Thank you. I spoke to John, the owner, and he recommended the Talls. He said that they will reproduce everything but the deepest pipe organ or synth notes, and would sound good in a room my size. Have you heard the Ohms, yourself? |
What about the imaging issue, Mapman? Do you find that you can locate instruments and singers in space, or is the presentation more "vague" with the Ohm's? I'm trying to imagine how imaging would work with the speakers radiating sound all over the place. And "good" imaging is to me one of the nicest hi-fi pleasures. |
Mapman,
This is all very useful and you are very generous and patient to lay it all out in such detail. Thanks! You nailed it on the head: clearly, this is quite a different listening experience than one would get with a box design, and question is whether I have the nerve to try it or not! :-) I'll look for your audiogon review, too. |
Audioconnection,
You know, oddly enough, I'd never considered the 1C. My old speakers were the very original Vandy 2C's (not CE or any of the later versions). My wife never liked the Vandy "look," though, and I'd have to see if she'd tolerate these smaller models! LOL! But it's an interesting suggestion. Thanks. |
Asa,
My system was purchased in the mid-1980s... it was what I guess you could call an entry-level high-end system in those days! The original equipment included the PS Audio Elite Plus integrated amplifier, a turntable that I think went by the name of Systemdeck (it had a glass platter and a pathetic suspension system... just walking around the hardwood floors in my listening room would cause the stylus to skip) paired with a Linn Basik tone arm. And, of course, the Vandersteen 2C (not any of the later upgrades, but the original model).
I later upgraded some things. I replaced the Aperture wire speaker connects with Monster Cable Powerline to2 and replaced the turntable with a SOTA Sapphire. Along the way, I added a Tandberg tuner and a Luxman cassette deck.
As I explained in my opening post of this thread, a home remodel and a much smaller listening room, as well as perilously low "wife acceptance factor" for the Vandersteens in the new listening room (which also has to double as a guest bedroom) led me to sell the Vandersteens here on Audiogon.
Actually, my wife and I are joking that she did me a favor in lobbying me to get rid of the Vandersteens, because the experience of shopping for speakers and connecting with this website has led me back into audio as a hobby, and I've really rediscovered the pleasures of all this... it combines the best of gadgetry, music and obsessive-compulsive personality. :-)
I've gotten to spend several hours in local stereo shops, which has been lots of fun. I also had the opportunity to purchase my first new piece of stereo equipment in over 20 years: a Music Hall 25.2 CD player. I don't have anything to hook it up to yet, but it sure looks nice! ;-) (Yes, I was a vinyl holdout until recently. I have "miles" of vinyl, and a growing collection of CDs, as well.)
Right now, my turntable is at SOTA being tuned up. Between whatever that will cost, plus new speaker cables, plus loudspeakers, I don't think a new amp is in the cards right now... maybe someday soon, though. |
Thanks for the recommendations, Asa. Right now, I know pretty well that the PS Audio amp at least has the "juice" to drive a 4 ohm speaker. If the Arro's are so revealing that they expose the Elite Plus to have crappy sound, then, there's something else to save up for, as you say. When the time comes, I'll get back on Audiogon and see what people recommend in a "budget" priced, used amp. I might even try tubes, if I can swing the $ ! ;-) |
Mapman,
The most unique thing about the Vandy's, AFAIK, is that you have the grill cloth "sock" stretched around four corner dowels, and inside is the closest thing to bare speaker guts you can get. They call this a baffle-less design, and it's supposed to eliminate edge diffraction effects; there's no "box," in the conventional sense. Also, the speaker elements are supposed to be time and phase-aligned.
They have lovely bass response well recorded electric bass sounds like a string instrument, and not low-level mush. When I bought that first system, I carried around my vinyl copy of James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here" from audio shop to audio shop (this was back when I lived in the NYC area). I listened to the title track over and over and over again for two great audio moments. First, when JT sings the line, "It seems me and Melissa, well we fell out of love," Leland Sklar enters with this swooping bass glissando. Done right, it has "air" around it. The Vandy's got that right. Also, when JT sings "I'm back in touch with my long lost friend," there's a moment when you swear you can hear the wall in back of his head, and his voice is eerily "there." The Vandy's did a good job with that, too. |
Mapman,
I dunno about the Totem Arro, because although there are two Totem dealers here in Austin, neither stocks the Arro! So I'm extrapolating from the Dreamcatchers that I did get to hear, and from the copious rave reviews I've read. Everybody seems to agree that their imaging is phenomenal, albeit in that "etched, precise," "great stereo" kind of way. So I'm running on some guesswork and second-hand advice, here! |
Mapman and Knownothing,
I'm getting an education here! ;-) |
Well, the Arro it is, then. Thank you to all of you who have been such a tremendous help to me. Now I just have to hope that the Arro's don't reveal my PS Audio Elite Plus as a crappy amp... wish me luck! :-) |
Jpaik,
Sorry! I'd "taken out my credit card" about 90 minutes before reading your post. I'd never heard of the Morrison's, either! They look neat. |
Asa,
Thanks for the amplifier advice. "Down the road," as you say.... ;-)
By the way, do all of these newer amps lack phono stages and so require a separate phono section? |
Asa,
Oh, and by the way, I hear that Totem drives their speakers with Naim electronics at shows these days, FWIW. |
Mapman,
It's a deal... actually, I was in DC last spring! |
Knownothing wrote:
"After recent listening sessions, I would also recommend the match to the your new CDP, the Music Hall a25.2, as a viable and less expensive alternative to the others."
Yeah, I had thought of the a25.2. Wally at Underwood HiFi has them for $480! You can't beat that price. I'd just need to add a phono preamp to that. Any suggestions there? |
Knownothing,
Actually, Wally at Underwood HiFi has the Music Hall a25.2 for $480! The question is, what would I do for a phono section? |
Tawaundabomb,
Thanks for the kind words. This thread certainly went on longer than I'd expected, which is a tribute to the generosity and passion of all the respondents. Really, as I said earlier, I did get a complete education in contemporary speaker trends from this thread! It's been over 20 years since I've been involved in High End Audio, meaning that I'd never heard of brands like Totem because they didn't exist the last time that I was actively following the scene.
By the way, to give you an idea how active I'd been before, my greatest claim to high end glory was having a letter to the editor published in TAS and commented on by HP somewhere back in the 1980's. :-)
Anyway, thanks again to everybody for their sage advice. |
Zkzpb8,
They're still in their box! :-( (This is how you know I'm a dad with a small child!) But I've nearly assembled the shelving that the new system will live in, so I hope to get 'em hooked up this week!
I'll report back soon! |
