A cheap fuse is much like cheap tubes, cheap sockets,cheap interconnects and cheap speaker wires, cheap power cords etc.
They all work.
If that's all you want stick with them.
Some of us have found out that upgrading the fuse makes an improvemnent, just like upgrading the other things i've listed.
While you're at it, upgrade to dedicated 20 amp lines, and better receptacles, better IEC connectors and RCA inputs.
The total end result is well worth the extra few dollars. |
Fuses do make a difference and are simply another tuning tool. The main difference is between Ceramic and glass cases. Glass is more open sounding but brighter with it (Glass resonating?).
Ceramic fuses are cleaner sounding but can tend toward dull with the wrong make or in the wrong system. most of the so called high end fuses are ceramic so are cleaner immediatly which is nice as they can now charge more for them. however I will probably buy some because the better "high end" fuses use silver elements instead of a tin alloy and hence are more open which may offset the warmer sound of ceramics and just lift the sound slightly. |
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Joeylawn3611
I agree it just does not compute BUT just like you give 6 cooks a dozen eggs some butter a little flour the same utensils and viola you get six different cakes. They may not even taste close to each other but they all have the same ingredients and have used the same ovens, and utensils. How is that possible? It just is and so it is likely to be with fuses and anything else someone can cook up as it were. I know this doesn't answer the question but it was the best analogy I could think of. |
I do believe Dopogue and others when they say there is an audible difference. But from what I know about electronics, it shouldnt make a difference. 120 Volts AC comes thru the fuse/power switch/power transformer primary circuit, and through a magnetic field only (no other direct electrical connection) to the transformer secondary, which has fewer(more) turns of wire (usually fewer for solid state-sometimes more for tube gear).
The secondary is connected to diodes which convert it to varying DC. This is then filtered with capacitors to smooth out ripples and then there is a voltage regulator to make sure that the DC voltage stays the same. This DC voltage is then used to power all the transistors/tubes/IC's etc.
My point is, after all this processing the voltage is transformed from 120V ac (which is really 340 Volts when measured on an oscilloscope) down to, say, 12 Volts DC. There is plenty of power (usually about 1875 Watts) available from the plug end, but maybe the component only uses 35 watts. So theres plenty of 'push' if needed.
Fuse materials: Silver is the best conductor of all metals, Gold is less so, but unlike silver won't corrode (unless you put cyanide on it ;) ) Cheap fuses use (I think) Chrome-plated steel. Poorer conductors will cause more resistance, hence more voltage lost in the fuses internal resistance. BUT the difference in resistance between a gold-ended fuse and a chrome one is infintesimal. So you would get 120 Volts on the component side with a gold fuse, you may get 119.999 Volts with a chrome plated one.
So logically speaking, you would say it makes no difference. But if you have heard the difference with your own ears, then I cannot argue with that (and I am not). I am just pointing out that it don't SEEM like it would matter even though it does.
Also the above tech info can be applied to Power Cords as well. The energy loss in a cheap 20 cent Chinese power cord should be not much different than an expensive audiophile cord. But I know that there are just too many 'Goners here that swear that there IS a difference.
I believe them. It just don't "compute". |
A simple possible answer from a scientific and even testable hypothese would be that:
Given that different metals have different electrical characteristics.
Given that changing anything in a chain will likely effect the whole chain for better or for worse
Then changing a fuse to one with better demonstrable electrical characteristics should result in something sounding smoother, flowing easier, less congested simply because moving through silver, gold, ceramic is a better medium for electrical signal transfers than through brass, pot metal, glass etc.
I am sure someone could set up an A/B system both showing minor electrical changes, less or more resistence in the chain at either point of the fuse and minor differences in drop across it in either voltage, more likely or amperage.
Just some quick thoughts. Being able to come up with a possible test and some measurements is no guarantee that what any test shows, even if duplicated exactly, would be accepted as proof of anything other than this test produces these results.
Nevertheless this makes me think that there should be some physical basis for what some are hearing and it may be patially based on the electrical physisc of the fuse and part on the resolution quality of the system.
Just some thoughts others may think differently but thanks for the thread it has helped to make my mind up for me to at least try a couple and see where it leads |
And let us not forget there is indeed a 4th audiophile fuse to consider: the Xindak silver fuse, made with pure 4N silver. Here is the website: http://www.xindak.com/english/products/showditail.asp?id=240
I have no further information on this particular fuse.
What I would really like to know is: which is best between the 4 types of audiophile fuses discussed here? |
I agree, Trelja. Go for it, Edkoz, and I hope we haven't steered you wrong!
Dave
PS: Thought I'd tell one on myself. My tubed phonostage is a heavily
modded NYAL Moscode SuperIt, with a large outboard power supply. This
has its own fuse, and I replaced it with one of the pricy jobs and definitely
heard an improvement. When I opened up the main unit to do some tube
rolling, I spotted another fuse on the PC board. Looked like it hadn't been
moved since I got my SuperIt in 1985. So I removed the fuse, cleaned it and
the fuseholder with Caig DeOxit and ProGold, then applied Walker SST (silver-
bearing grease) to the ends. Incidentally, this is what I did to all the fuses
before going for the pricy replacements; it makes a difference. After doing all
this, I thought I heard an improvement, albeit a very subtle one, not enough
to warrant replacing the fuse
You guessed it -- the modder told me that the PC-mounted fuse was no
longer in the circuit at all! (Like I said, it was a VERY subtle improvement :-)) |
"A wise man changes his mind. A fool, never."
Edkoz, you've certainly earned my respect.
For the record, I'll be trying them soon as well in my Jadis DA60. Each tube is fuse protected. Thinking about it logically (sorry if this isn't the typical subjectivist blather that sends the flat earthers into rage), on my amp, the signal is going through 8 fuses, one at each output tube. Along with the input IEC connector, and selector switch, the fuses are the worst metal/conductors in my amplifier, and possibly, my audio chain. We spend all of this money for interconnects, power and speaker cabling, only to pass the signal through a lousy fuse - there has to be a better way, apart bypassing the fuse altogether (something I'm not yet willing to do). |
Just the amps at this point. |
Edkoz, in which component were you going to try the fuse(s)? Mine made the most difference in power amps, but I don't know your components and can't really comment beyond thinking that yes, you could probably hear the improvement. Dave |
OK,I admit I don't know everything about everything. So I'm thinking of giving the fuse thing a try. The question I have is, is my system good enough to hear a difference with "hi-tech" fuses if hi-tech fuses do make a difference?
I'm using a Mcintosh MX135 pre/pro, Arcam dvd27a player, Bryston 7B-SST mono amps , B&W 802D L/R speakers and a Chang lightspeed power conditioner. |
Dave, I have experienced the differences wire can make, but have never tried high end fuses. I am open to whether they make a difference or not. Maybe I didn't make my comparative point clear.
Copernicus risked ridicule with his proposals, and eventually Kepler proved him right. Some audiophiles are being ridiculed for proposing they hear a difference with high end fuses, and I'm challenging someone to come up with the scientific proof one way or the other.
I can live with the answer either way. |
Somehow I doubt that any present-day Kepler would waste his time on fuse comparisons. But good grief, wires make a major difference and I'm surprised you're still in the naysayer camp on this one. The fuse differences are not as pronounced and it does take a fairly highly resolving system to bring them out. Your post is a little pompous, don't you think? Dave |
The audiophiles that are proposing that "hearing" the difference proves that that difference exists, just like the people that saw that the earth was flat were sure that they were correct, despite the "objective" measurements that proved them wrong.
My experience has taught me to NOT trust my senses too much, but more the science.
Bob P. |
Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) was the first known modern person to propose the Earth circles the Sun. He based his theory on earlier writings and a belief that it was a more probable and elegant solution. He had no observational evidence of this theory, was challenging the religious beliefs of the time, and was accused by his peers of "wanting to over-turn the whole science of astronomy"!
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) followed up by correctly describing the motions of the planets using geometry and science. His equations of motion are a celebrated major achievement. Even so, it took at least 100 years for most educated people to accept and believe the earth was round, and the sun was not the center of the universe.
Now audiophiles are proposing wires and fuses make a difference... Any Kepler's out there ready to step up to this? |
But Nrchy I have much experience in changing fuses, as I have posted previously, and I heard no difference. If the only experience that counts for you is experience that agrees with your contentions, then you are, indeed, doomed to not learn from others' experiences.
BTW, those that believed that the earth was flat were those that did not believe (or understand) in objective measurements. There is no way to experience the "sphere" aspect of the earth, but one can measure it! So who are you to believe?
Bob P. |
inpepinnovations your response is typical of people who have nothing to offer but your charming wit!
I don't know if these fuses will make a difference, but people who condemn something without any expereince are simply foolish. I admit I don't know, but someone who is pretending to know, is a liar.
You can get made at me if you want, I don't care. I am trying to learn, but I prefer to learn from someone with experience. Maybe those like Edkoz are right, but even he doesn't know if he's right, he just thinks he is right.
Fuses don't make any difference, all amps that measure the same sound the same, and cables don't matter unless you don't have any!!! The world is flat, and the sun rotates around it!!!
There, you want helpful advice, I'm just full of it!!!!!!!!! |
Edkoz, it will make a 95$ difference, maybe less if you happen to install them in the correct direction.
Bob P. |
I have a pair of tube amps. I also own a pair of Acoustat X electrostatic speakers. Fuses have burned out on two of these four amps.....saved my house. Don't bypass. |
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt but I thought this forum was for learning? I may not be as expericenced as some in the world of changing fuses but I would not say I know nothing. All I wanted to know is how can changing a $5 fuse with a $100 fuse make a difference? I'm sure I could have said it better but I must admit that I didn't expect the response I got. |
In all honesty, I can't detect any difference either with respect to directionality. But the gold fuses -- in my case, the German "Hi-Fi Tuning" ones -- made quite a difference in my system, despite my initial skepticism. So did simply removing the old ones, cleaning their contact areas, then using Walker SST (silver-bearing grease) on them and replacing them. Dave |
So, the more fuses one changes the more knowledgeable one is? I have changed fuses often on my power amp since I switch from 240v to 120v often and the only difference that I hear is none, let alone an "improvement". I guess I do know something, however, about changing fuses, that is!
I am still waiting for the explanation of direction of current on Alternating Current which makes the direct of the fuse important and audible.
Bob P. |
Edkoz - how many fuses have you tried in your system to determine that this does not cause an improvement? I give you the benefit of the doubt, believing you would not post a response on a topic about which you know nothing. |
Edkoz, I guess you need to work on your comprehension. Or maybe the resolving power of your system. Sorry about that :-) |
It is beyond comprehension that anyone can "think' there is a change in sonic improvement by changing a fuse!!!!!! |
After reading about the latest "fuse frenzy", I bypassed two fuses in my CDP with two pieces of 30 ga. solid silver wire per fuse, as I have read this will incur the greatest sonic benefit. Positive benefit noted IMS...
So it appears that a "quality" fuse will improve sonics. |
Hi Nrchy (Nate), the fuses are sold direct only, otherwise I'd be more than happy to help you. I'll be pleased to work with you on their other products, of course.
Brian |
Mr Essential, do you sell them? I'd rather get them from someone I know! |
Rx8man - nothing illegal there, just the fact that IF your house burns down, your insurance company MIGHT refuse to pay the claim IF it finds out the bypassed fuse was to blame. But even then, you obvously have to have some kind of short-circuit failure to be any problem at all. No, I am not critisizing you at all. (but I would at least unplug the thing before going on a long vacation) ;) |
In the interest of fairness, the third high end fuse source is Furutech at:
www.furutech.com |
Nate (Nrchy), two sources include Isoclean and Hifi-Tuning. Isoclean fuses are available direct from the distributor here. Brian |
Timrhu those must be PF Flyers...
Where are people getting these replacement fuses? I would like to try them in my system. |
Recently upgraded the laces in my tennis shoes. Jump higher, run faster? You gotta try it to believe it. |
The Iso Cleans worked for me.Used them on my mono blocks, pre-amp power stage,and line conditioner.If you can't hear the differences in cables and power cords then don't bother with fuses. |
The Acme fuse holder does have a thin silver plate but the base metal is not copper or bronze. I have already done research and can find no high quality fuse holder. Simply replacing the fuse without addressing the fuse holder only gives you partial results. Oh how nice my system sounds with the fuses and fuse holders removed.
Johnny |
Rx I have often thought of solid copper but was always afraid of hurting my family. The house the hi-fi that all can be conjured up once again. One friend I know replaces the fuses with circuit breakers saying they sound much better, you need more space inside each component and the know how to do the swap. Tom
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And those Acme fuse holders are just as important as the high end fuses. |
I know about the safety and all, but I picked up a length of 1/4" 101 OFC solid copper rod.
Fuses and their holders are definately weak links in any audio component.
I've been using the slug in my original Hydra since new, for 4 years, with no ill effects what so ever.
Now, don't nobody come jumping in on my butt about how wrong, unsafe or illegal this is,
I already know.
Folks have done this with Maggie speakers and other equipment as well for many years.
Anytime I do an interconnect or speaker cable change or move, system gets shut down and un-plugged from the wall to settle and cool.
Use at your own risk, if in any doubt, replace fuses with equal value and forget about bypassing entirely. |
Johnny (42659): Acme Audio Labs makes a silver plated, optionally cryo treated, fuse holder. |
I'm replacing my fuses with solid silver rods tomorrow. I'll get back to you on the improved sound. |
I have (3) HIFI tuning fuses in my system and it did make a noticable postive improvement in the sound (cleaner and more detailed) but bypassing the fuse and fuse holder all togeather (going fuseless) provides far more sonic gain. When I removed the fuse from my cat JL2 amp, Jadis preamp and a fuse on my dynavector phono headamp the upgrade was far greater than simply changing fuses. The cheap fuse holder, usually about 85 cents retail on most audio units, really degrades the sound even when a upgraded high end audiophile fuse is added. It would be nice if somebody made a pure copper or bronze fuse holder to go with the expensive audio fuses currently on the market but to the best of my knowledge nobody does, what a shame as the fuse holder is the real choke hold.
Johnny |
Why not? If you can spend hundreds and thousands on a high end power cord, I am sure a fuse would make significant improvements.
REMEMBER.....after your 20A dedicated lines, to your cryo'd outlets then to your gigantic power cords, the current ultimately passes thru a tiny fuse in your component. If the fuse would be of a good quality, it must make a difference.
I have Isoclean fuses throughout my system and YES, it makes a big difference. YMMV
Cheers |
Yes, Porziob, I'm sure you tried them in your system. I made the mistake of
trying them in mine and now own five of them. Couldn't be more surprised.
Kinda logical, when you think about it, assuming that you believe there are
differences in the sound of cables and the fuses are clearly the weakest links.
Granted, the price is absurd. |
Do a search in the discussion forums for IsoClean. You can read all about it.
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More snakeoil to waste the gullibles`$. |
