SET Shootout China VS The USA

I take it you have a 12AT7 LTP @ +-300V with something like a cascode 10M45S CCS below?

@pesky_wabbit Yes, something very similar to that although the CCS is our own design. There's a 'steering diode' so the cathode voltage can't fall below -0.7 Volts; this protects the tube from developing cathode/filament shorts during warmup.

If the idea is that one should not buy products from a country that ranks lower than one's own, based on whatever social metric, this would be problematic for those countries that rank high.  You could scarcely buy anything non-domestic if you lived in Denmark or Finland, for example, but the world is your oyster if you lived in Nigeria or Myanmar.  

just revisited the KU 307 video,, love at 1st hearing

Its something I can't even comprehend, the fidelity,, its like its not even real. 

Like a  dream or even a  fantasy.

By sheerrrr luck I hit on KU's page,,I've seen his YT months ago ona   used amp he was selling...but I was very interested ina  brand new chinese 300B PP amp with PRE IN,,and  very confident I would add a  3rd amp,,, so I can use my Jadis DPL with Mundorf caps,,,but hit on this KU 307, 

What I really should do, is list my Defy with $1600 mods (never recoop, all lost), and sell the Yaqin 2A3.

What pain and suffering.....

 

Im havinga   hard time trying to figure Ken's amps out, 307 tube,,what is it??

so i googled 307 , yes avaliable for purchase.

WOW this SET world is  a  nother universe.

 

But I do thinik I found the **mother load**

unreal, just unreal.

Yep going to list,,,,,,no,,,no  can;'t sell my Defy,, but certainly  should,... as I don;'t need 3 ,  amplifiers, 

 

 

Look when China techs can put out a  2A3 PP and now I see a  300B PP just out, which most likely i will order as well, as it has a  Pre Out for my Jadis DPL,, might sell the 2A3,,, but look when techs can put out a  SET amp like in this vid below,, there is no way the old KT designs can compete.

I have no idea what this amp lists at, bet its over $15 grand.

Jadis KT170 vs this SET? 

Both at $16 grand

No brainer.

 

@laoman Then go find a forum like this in the PRC. Where you can speak your mind for the most part and not have to worry about having your front door kicked in.

Why are you supporting China's economy?" Be aware that not all posters on this site hail from the US. Some of us would rather support Chinese technology rather than US technology for various reasons including political,

Ha yes Chinese advances in 1920's technology are more of a niche sector. 😂

I don‘t think the technology is an issue given that it is pushing a century……

"Why are you supporting China's economy?" Be aware that not all posters on this site hail from the US. Some of us would rather support Chinese technology rather than US technology for various reasons including political,

I like vintage iron too. This is when steel was cheap. Now with high industrialization past 20 yrs has placed critical demands on steel so prices have sky rocketed. Which is why the trans in the Yaqin are no doubt small, at $1300, ,,my tech tapped on the 3 covers,, sounded hollow inside. WEll, no big deal, at $1300 , sounds great, I'm happy. Better trans gives nunace superior bass. Again dual FR pad up the bass 60hz region. Can't complain on certain tracks, I get all the bass i want/wish for.

Jond,

I like vintage iron too.  My pushpull 45 runs Accrosound To 330 trannies, my pushpull 349 runs Western Electric 171 iron (input trannies are Western Electric 618).

@pesky_wabbit , well he did say he was tossed from one forum already and his insistent style that only he knows the truth is just very reminiscent of Jeff. I actually haven't seen Jeff anywhere in a long time, no forums left that will allow him to participate or did something happen to him I wonder. I didn't hate the guy but his know it all attitude and bizarre thinking at times got on my nerves. I would welcome him back if he toned it down......a lot!

 

BillWojo

On the subject of vintage trannies my aforementioned PP 2a3 amp uses vintage Eico trannies.  My previous El34 amp used vintage Accrosound trannies, vintage iron really makes a difference!

@atmasphere I take it you have a 12AT7 LTP @ +-300V with something like a cascode 10M45S CCS below? Or are we talking fancy pants?

@billwojo please don‘t go there. After only brief contact, some poor souls have lost their will to think……..

Hey mozartfan, are you by any chance related to a guy named Jeff, AKA LowMu or LoOhms? Just wondering............

 

BillWojo

They just have come to learn that you have to listen to an audio product to really know if it’s for you. People realize there is no better way to select these products.

Yes- heaven forbid that audio companies actually publish spec sheets that told you how the gear sounds! As a result the only way to know if something works for you is to play it at home.

@alexberger

He used classic schematics. He runs his amplifiers without feedback and with feedback. The question is why you and my friend got so different results? What is the difference of your schematics to classical EL84 PP schematics?

Do you use balance input "+" for input and input "-" for feedback? Did you publish your schematic?

I think the problem comes in when you combine single-ended and PP circuitry at the same time! Thru algebraic summing you wind up with a more prominent 5th harmonic. Seems to me Norman Crowhurst wrote about this in some of his tomes back in the late 1950s- so this shouldn’t be a revelation (although I’ve come to suspect many designers are ignorant of his work). Back then the solution was to add feedback, which causes the circuit to be brighter due to added higher ordered harmonics (so to me does not seem like a solution). Crowhurst also wrote about this too, so none of this is new.

What strikes me as odd is, when these things have been known for so long, why do people persist in making what to me seems the same mistakes, over and over?

I am suggesting that your friend possibly made this mistake also. IME if you really want to hear what PP can do, you can’t combine it with single ended circuits or you’ll shoot the project down before it gets off the ground.

You do one or the other, but not both!

I didn’t publish my circuit, (which is very simple; two stages of gain including the output section which is a simpler signal path than most SETs), but I did publish an in-depth description over on audioasylum.com in the DIYtube section- search on ’EL95 amp’. The description allows anyone to build the circuit if they have the know how to build amps from scratch. The only tricky bit is I used some very effective constant current sources for the differential voltage amp which is something you don’t usually see in tube circuits (and so leaves performance on the table). To this end the Voltage amp also ran on + and - Voltages of the same value.

You are correct- the audio input is the + input and the feedback is on the - input. In that way there would be no intermodulations introduced at the feedback node. I got such good linearity out of the circuit I didn’t need the feedback at all; it was only used to reduce gain. IMO/IME if you are applying smaller amounts of feedback (like 15dB) that is really the only way to do it.

 

@alexberger

But he preferred the results he got with SE by a big margin. He used classic schematics. He runs his amplifiers without feedback and with feedback. The question is why you and my friend got so different results? What is the difference of your schematics to classical EL84 PP schematics?

Because when all is said and done it boils down to the desires, taste and preferences of an individual listener. Someone will prefer the push-pull and another will prefer the SE. Neither is hardly  wrong . No one has "golden ears" and thus the final arbiter on what sounds best. This is rightly so, up to each listener to decide. No absolute proclamations can exist in an endeavor so thoroughly and innately subjective and personal. That’s what makes this all fun and an adventure.

I have not heard the Heathkit amp, but, I've heard a number of amps with Peerless trannies, and I am a big fan of the KT66 (and similar sounding 6L6) tube so I bet the amp is quite nice.  A good modestly powered tube amp feeding Quad 57s makes for a terrifically musical and enjoyable setup. 

If it sounds like crap on YouTube, guess what: everything SHOULD sound like crap on YouTube.

I listened to ESL57 speakers in 3 different homes and liked these speakers a lot!

@atmasphere . One of my friends built a number of SE and low power push pull amplifiers on EL84 and 6V6 tubes. He mostly used similar quality parts for both SE and PP. But he preferred the results he got with SE by a big margin. He used classic schematics. He runs his amplifiers without feedback and with feedback. The question is why you and my friend got so different results? What is the difference of your schematics to classical EL84 PP schematics?

Do you use balance input "+" for input and input "-" for feedback? Did you publish your schematic?

Regards,

Alex.

 

 

This thread is like a slow motion train wreck. You yell “look out” and then no matter how hard you try you….can’t….look….away. Ugh.

Joao Gilbert at 3 minutes

Sorry not my cup of tea.

a bit tioo much resonances, like all paper mid woofers have same identical coloration. 

Bass is UNREAL...

You will not know just how colored the Q57 is until I bring in my Dual FR.

 

Thuis is the way this game works, One speaker smacks down another.

Last speaker standing wins.

My Duo has no competition(exception high end horns, which all speakers fail against) in certain regards. 

 

 

 

Regarding speakers: a pair or two of Quad 57’s plus a pair of Heath W5’s is audio nirvana! That’s what I use!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quad57’s, Legendary, Richard mentions Q57’s are the Gold standard by which all xover speakers are measured.(yeah I am putting words in his mouth,, but thats pretty much how he talks about this Legend))

Now will they hold up against my Dual FR’s???/

Let me go to YT now on the Q57’s.... see what I hear....

 

Remembera  Legend ary speaker is only as good til a  new kid on the block comes along.

Do the 57's have a  sweet spot,, = beaming??

If yes, grate my nerves. = reject. 

Do the Q57's require some special power amp/db sens??

If yes, not for me.

Why bother with the Defy 7? Get a pair of nicely restored Heath W5's. Peerless iron. Add a quad set of Gold Lion KT66's and four vintage 12AU7's for the input/driver stages. 28 PP watts per mono amp. Sonically way better than any Chinese amp! I have a pair. Sell that Defy 7! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Man o man, dont you just sound like both techs here in the area,,**you really ought to dump the Defy*** why all the hate for the Defy.. show some love.. Richard speaks very highly of the ~~legendary, famous~~ Heath Kits. KT66's. ,,, not much attention on these rarely employed tubes. My gress is like EL34's in tones..?? WEll I have too much cash invested in ~~upgrades~~ in the Defy,, wife will not let me sell it,. Has corrosion on some tiny points top chassis, (New Orleans 100% humidity and stuck ina closet for 10 years,,have 5 cats, but its not from the cats pp). + added mods, NOT STOCK, one just sold ebay $2500 top big $200 ship. I have over 1500 in upgrades alone. I'm betting all my chips the new mystery tube is going to deliver the CORRECT sound stage for this amplifier. fact of the matter is, I followed the crowd going KT88's. Great tube for a 4 tubed amp. And a absolute necessity for all you audiophiles with CONVENTIONAL xoverlowsens LOUD`speakers.. For a single FR, the 88 will only work ina 4 tube amp. When we get up to Defy's 12,, the tiny big added midarnge X 12, makes the mids ~~bloated~~. The mystery tube I am speaking of has a tiny bit more recessed mid vs the 88. I'm guessing the Defy will arise like the Phoenix from the fires, into a new beautiful soundstage. When cash become avaliable I will tube the Defy with the mystery tube and upload about 10 YT videos. If its not a success, I will not upload any videos. I'm guessing my modded Defy vs stock Jadis, with mystery tube, which jadis DOES not rarely employ as per clients request,,, will elevate this Defy beyond all Jadis' amp,ifiers when a 88 is in the socket. Dual FR + 12 88's = bloated midrange = yucky. Still think about it. China 2A3 $1500 vs Defy+ DPL = over $10G's. 2A3 in most classical gets the Cigar. RFavel's Daphne awaits the test. Which one can handle the massive swings load of fq's, wins the cigar. The 2A3 might show some distortion at say 65SPL, vs the Defy/Mystery tube might show distortion at say 85++ SPL. I listen at 65/70SPL.

Regarding speakers: a pair or two of Quad 57's plus a pair of Heath W5's is audio nirvana! That's what I use!

Why bother with the Defy 7? Get a pair of nicely restored Heath W5's. Peerless iron. Add a quad set of Gold Lion KT66's and four vintage 12AU7's for the input/driver stages. 28 PP watts per mono amp. Sonically way better than any Chinese amp! I have a pair. Sell that Defy 7!

Now the shootout is

France vs China

Defy7 with highest end Mundorf, F&T's,  Philips, aero space silvercopper internal main cabels, 4 @ 8 gague.

Takman Rey resistors.

Vs 

Stock China 2A3 PP .

I do not wish for this Defy to  be a  closet piece, collecting dust.

The 88's are just a  pinch too thick in midrange.

I need something that is more evenly distributed. 

And that tube is none other than,,,,the mystery tube.

Will the Jadis come up to the Yaqin's magic?? 

Lets say this, if the record has something that requires depth, dynamics, complex passages, demanding,, the 2A3 just might not match what the Defy delivers in this more strigent, demanding power requirements. Such as Ravel's Daphne and Chole. 

This  Q can not be answered til I find the cash for the 12 mystery tubes + Richard will install new bias pots, .

Stay tuned,,, maybe late April (not mid summer as previously stated).

 

 

 

current version of the 2-way Sonus Faber Guaneri is $18,000 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ EMoji of complete shock.. A few months back there was a older version of the Guarneri on ebay,, bidded over 2500,,, could not believe it,.,,,now you say,, 18G's. huh? 2 way 6 inch Scan speak made especially for the Guarneri with a incredible Neo Dymium magnet motor,,and a high end tweeter,, is this the 2 way you are refering to...?? 18GGGGsss. Emoji of disbelief.

@mozartfan 

I think that SF model goes for like $2500 vs my FR duo @ under $1. I’ll take my FR/Duo’s all you get with the SF is a 6 inch mid and a tweeter, Neither has the fiber to voice the super duper critical 2khz-3khz band width. Breakup in both drivers in this extremely important fq zone.

The $500 Alex comment was intended to pay homage to the lat Alex Trebek. The current version of the 2-way Sonus Faber Guaneri is $18,000/pr IIRC. Stands included.

 

Your speakers are probably quite a bit more sensitive.

 

Genalex Gold Lion KT77

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

This tube more than likely will not work in the Defy as pe my tech’s opinion. He did grant approval on the mystery tube as acceptable in the Defy’s circuit. Bombed plant is dead giveaway

 

btw if someone says **mystery tube has even more midrange vs the 88...** I’ll dismiss.

The 88 is well known as **bloomy** midrange.

Which again, xover type speakers need the 88  to ENRICH that 1800hz-3500hz region.

FR , especially dual concoction/scheme,,has already too much,,well actually with the right tube ina PP, just perfectly rich enough.

a single FR would (might) bore me to death.

If you're speaking of the Genalex Gold Lion KT77 repros yes they are far superior to the KT88 tube and most EL34 variants as well.

OK so we know the KT88 tube in a 12 tube amp, ain;t working for me vs the incredible sound froma 2A3 PP

 

,,,so what do we do in this case???

1st wish to say

glad these 88’s are not new,, i’d be stuck with them...they have 4k hours,,,so what we do is to consider what other tube this picky Defy will accept... that MIGHT just be a game changer,,,and after thinking,,,thinking, pondering,,I found the answer.

Not going to tell you which tube.

Only going to say, specs look close, but IMHO the 88 has a bigger mid voice.

And with dual FR, I don’t want/need/wish for a midrange that **blooms** as is so often said about the 88.

The mystery tube I’m guessing has a tiny bit less pronounced midrange X’s 12 88's   = now we have a massive alge bloom midrange , polluting the waters.

So if the mystery tube, a tube that has completely totally been thrown under the bus, then steamed roll over (= its all about 88,88,88,,,88,88 = Popular Vote, = which goes against my modus operandi),

 

Hint

the plant was bombed, russians picked it up and made the tube superior.

This is the tube that might very well save the Jadis from being nothing more than a museum piece.

 

2A3 PP low watt amp

vs

100 (real/true) watt amp + Mystery tube

shootout.

There’s still hope for Jadis

Yeah I know Jadis lovess the Svet Kt88, only due to popular demand.

 

Stay tuned.

 

 

These online comparisons using YouTube are rubbish.

I have three single end tube amps. A 2A3, a 45 and a 6BG6. The 2A3 is a Sanei 260A made-in-Japan. It uses all Tango iron, including a Tango choke! Plus a front panel volume pot and a headphone jack! It was an eBay auction win for me one December! The Japanese seller gave me free shipping too! The 45 SET was a custom build by Will Vincent in Idaho. He built it on a Dynaco ST70 chassis using Emcron output transformers, two 6C6 pentode input tubes and a 5V4 rectifier. Beautiful white powder coat on the chassis. I paid $1600 + shipping. With only 1.75 wpc I don’t have any speakers to use with it after selling my Heresy’s

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOW you really have some gorgeous sounding amplification. Down the road I may be interested in the 45, would be fantastic with my FR.

I know a lot of audiophiles look askance at measurements but the simple fact is that if you have the right measurements you can tell how an amp will sound if you also have an understanding of how we perceive sound.

I believe many experience audiophiles/music lovers have a healthy appreciation for measurements. They just have come to learn that you have to listen to an  audio product to really know if it's for you. People realize there is no better way to select these products.

Charles

I’ll take Sonus Faber for $500 Alex!

 

 

~~~~~~~

I think that SF model goes for like $2500 vs my FR duo @ under $1. I’ll take my FR/Duo’s all you get with the SF is a 6 inch mid and a tweeter, Neither has the fiber to voice the super duper critical 2khz-3khz band width. Breakup in both drivers in this extremely important fq zone.

Upon introduction to a good DHT SET some listeners find a purity, aliveness, transparency and most importantly a genuine deep emotional connection with their music listening experience. These traits were found lacking to some degree with their previous non SET amplifiers. Some do return at some point to other amplifier types, but many do not. So perhaps other manufacturers should heed your guide lines for improving their push pull amplifiers.

@charles1dad 

They're not actually my guidelines- just good engineering practice. I think there's too much 'by gosh and by golly' going on in this sport where real engineering just isn't being done- instead you see an awful lot of rehashed circuits from yesteryear. I know a lot of audiophiles look askance at measurements but the simple fact is that if you have the right measurements you can tell how an amp will sound if you also have an understanding of how we perceive sound.

 

I am thinking that this would be an easy build. Wonder if there would be enough interest in it for some sales? The 6BG6's are still available NOS. They take the plate lead out by a top cap. About 6 wpc of tetrode power! Again, best with higher sensitivity speakers!

2. The 6BG6 is another custom build from eBay. It uses a single 12AT7 as input to two 6BG6 tetrodes, along with a 5U4 rectifier. About 6 wpc, so a bit more useful than the 45 and 2A3 amps. Now I wish I had kept the vintage Heresy's! I think I paid about $200 for it. The circuit is built upon a square piece of chrome metal diamond pattern flooring, with all four sides encased in wood pieces. Power tranny on top rear center, 12AT7 front center and a 6BG6 in front of the power tranny on left and right sides. Underneath are the two output transformers. 5U4 in center in front of the power tranny. All the circuit wiring underneath.

1. I have three single end tube amps. A 2A3, a 45 and a 6BG6. The 2A3 is a Sanei 260A made-in-Japan. It uses all Tango iron, including a Tango choke! Plus a front panel volume pot and a headphone jack! It was an eBay auction win for me one December! The Japanese seller gave me free shipping too! The 45 SET was a custom build by Will Vincent in Idaho. He built it on a Dynaco ST70 chassis using Emcron output transformers, two 6C6 pentode input tubes and a 5V4 rectifier. Beautiful white powder coat on the chassis. I paid $1600 + shipping. With only 1.75 wpc I don't have any speakers to use with it after selling my Heresy's.

The Sonus Faber version sounds better but it's impossible to know if it's the system or the quality of the recording. Neither sounds great but that's YT for you.

IMO its a tell of the sorry state of affairs in high end audio that there are SETs that actually do sound better than their PP brethren- it really shouldn’t be that way!

@atmasphere

For a number of listeners this is their conclusion. You give rationale explanation as to how push pull topology could easily equal (Or surpass) the sonic presentation of a good SET amplifier. Problem is very few manufacturers commercially are following the recipe you propose.

Most happy SET owners migrated from the world of transistor and push pull tube amplifiers. Very rarely is SET the first amplifier choice for newbies. Rather it’s a choice discovered after ownership and exposure to non SET amplifiers. So most of these converts are seasoned listeners and owners of High End audio components.

 

Upon introduction to a good DHT SET some listeners find a purity, aliveness, transparency and most importantly a genuine deep emotional connection with their music listening experience. These traits were found lacking to some degree with their previous non SET amplifiers. Some do return at some point to other amplifier types, but many do not. So perhaps other manufacturers should heed your guide lines for improving their push pull amplifiers.

Charles

Neither sounds particularly good. I think that is supposed to be piano playing at about the 8 to 9 minute mark of the first video. It is pretty tough to tell for sure though. Bright and splashy with overall poor timbre. The Sonus Faber have a somewhat more realistic piano, but is closed in and dark sounding. If I am forced to choose between them, it would be the Sonus Faber but only because it is less bad.

I'll take Sonus Faber for $500 Alex!

OK Miles Davis with the Yaquin 2A3 + DavidLouis duos

vs

this Jadis JA30's w KT150's  + Sonus faber Guarneri

 

Now you tell me which you prefer, have same track as in my upload

 

The opinions expressed in this video I take full responsibility  and in no way  wish to disregard the KT88 tube in a  design.

Its a  wonderful sounding tube   (tongueincheek),, but at the end of the d,,listening session, there can only be one sharp shooter left standing ,,as you know,, only 1 gets The Cigar.

.Midrange,,although I will say this lil 7 watter has soem kick in bass. Highs super. 

IMHO the KT series tubes, EL34,88,120,150, 170 is midfi after you hear a  Direct Heated Triode.

 

 

Why did you use EL95 in ultralinear mode? Why you didn’t use 2a3 or 45 tubes for your push-pull amp?

@alexberger

I’d already built the PP 45 amps and they were rather large. One problem of DHTs is you have to run DC if you want the output section to not make hum. So that means a DC supply which takes up room. The EL95 amp is silent on ’phones with AC filaments- its also a stereo integrated amp (2 inputs with volume control) and has a footprint smaller than a sheet of notebook paper. I did actually want this amp to fit easily into the space I have for it in my bedroom...

Its far more practical than any SET of the same power. For now anyway, the tubes are cheap and you can leave it on all night without it getting into trouble or worrying about the life of the tubes (they’ve held up just fine over the last year). Despite being class A it really doesn’t make much heat.

When people compare PP amps to SETs, one variable is that they are often using different tubes with far greater power (apples and oranges)! So this exercise sought to eliminate those variables, first by using the same DHTs in PP with the same components and tubes as used in the SET version, and the second by comparing an SET to a PP amp that made the same power at clipping.

If I had to describe the little EL95 amp, its very nimble compared to SETs of anywhere near the same power. Its not subtle. One problem with it was that when I was done it had too much gain. Since it used a differential amp for the input and since the inputs were all single ended, that allowed me to use the unused input of the differential amp for feedback, which was used solely to reduce the gain. IMO/IME this is the only legitimate use of feedback unless you can run over 35dB at all frequencies.

BTW there’s nothing special about this amp unless you think that attention to the kind of distortion it was going to make might be considered special. There is a reason SETs went the way- despite improvements in things like coupling caps and power supplies, they are simply an antiquated technology that can be easily surpassed IF the designer is paying attention to the distortion issue and understands how that interacts with the human ear. IMO its a tell of the sorry state of affairs in high end audio that there are SETs that actually do sound better than their PP brethren- it really shouldn’t be that way!