I’ve only heard SETs with horns at an audio show. I recall an Art Audio amp with PX25s driving Avantgarde speakers (Duos?) that sounded REALLY good. I don’t doubt that 45s et al can sound even better with horns.
What I am saying is that those who don’t want horns (for space, budget, WAF, or other reasons) can still get a lot of the virtues of SETs with well matched, higher efficiency, dynamics. That was not at all the impression I got before trying it for myself. I know there are always trade offs, but, in my case, I have a hard time perceiving any significant ones.
Horns are not an option for me, at least right now. Maybe there’s an amp out there that can give me the the "magic" of my 45s AND greater dynamic headroom, with my current speakers. I’m not chasing after it, though. |
"Sometimes you have to ignore well meaning warnings based on preconceived notions. " How someone thinks something sounds good or bad is a notion. Technical facts are facts however, not notions. You can choose to ignore them but chances are higher you may regret it later if you do.
That’s not to say technical facts tell the whole story either. They do not. But they do set the foundation for how the story is most likely to end. |
I've often been amused by the comments in Stereophile about how an SET can measure so poorly and yet sound so good- and further that no-one seems to know why. I have to assume that they did not ask any designers when that comment was made.
IMO low distortion is pretty important, and as long as you don't push them hard SETs can have distortion lower than any solid state amp. And when you ask a little more power, you get the 2nd harmonic which is a lot less offensive to the ear (even in large quantities) than the higher ordered harmonics of solid state! So its no surprise why SETs have a following.
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Lewinskih01,
You have the right attitude and I wish you well. Sometimes you have to ignore well meaning warnings based on preconceived notions. When I became interested in SET amplifiers the warnings were, limited music genre, pleasant but very colored midrange, very little bass or high frequency information. All were completely wrong and in hindsight total nonsense. The past 7 years with my SET 300b based system has provided the most vibrant,open,transparent, organic and emotional involvement I’ve ever experienced. I wish you the best of success moving forward with your project.
Charles, |
Hello Al. Thanks for the excellent and thoughtful reply. I've gone through it several times in the last couple of days. You made it very clear so I can work through the tradeoffs. Maybe running the amp up to 50% si not as offensive? Something to try and learn. I think most of my music is going to be rather compressed. Of course I have some good recordings, including Telarc's Firebird you mentioned, but the majority of my listening is going to happen with lesser quality recordings. Let alone having 3 kids into teenagehood and wanting to share some listening time with them, with their music ;-) FWIW, I'm working on the midrange driver. It's a horn-loaded cone, so efficiency is yet another tradeoff in the design. I believe 100dB/W is about a floor, and probably a cieling around 106dB/W. Hopefully I can get it to 103-104dB/W and then things start to look significantly better. Or I'll have to settle for a 2A3 or higher power amp.
Glad to see a healthy thread develop on SETs. I'm hoping that eventually more people will be open to try what well-implemented DSP can do for a system (emphasis on "well-implemented"), just like Charles was open to experience well-implemented digital. Not saying it will be best for everybody, but I find it a pity people follow so many preconceived notions in audio and preclude themselves from trying new things. OK, time to get off my soap box :-) |
If using a 45 amp to only reproduce 350 to 2000Hz on a 100 dB/W driver
in a 25m2 room and if average listening level is 85-90 dB SPL, would a
45 suffice or be driven to the point where 5th order harmonics become an
issue? Al did an excellent job of answering this. Since the type 45 can operate with exceptional bandwidth, I would have considered this amplifier to be a good one for the tweeter, where high power is usually less of an issue. Alternatively, if you could operate a mid-range driver with more efficiency, then you would also have a good payoff. |
Seems more than a few running 45 SET with under 100db loudspeakers are saying they do not listen loud and are limited in music selection. If you want few limits with 45 SET want to play any type of music you care to you will most likely need a horn loaded loudspeaker and might even have to biamp. Or enjoy within limits nothing wrong with that but I do feel those insisting that the suggestion that 45 SET needs hi-eff is wrong because if they use within limits it works for them misses the point of the over 100db easy ohm load suggestions for 45 SET use and that is to get the best out of these SETs. |
Inna,
I understand your position as this debate is discussed to the point of Ad nauseam (and this is unlikely to change). So in this case we respectfully agree to disagree. Both sides of this argument have plenty of company 😊😊.
Charles, |
Yes, here we do have a profound disagreement. I even believe that only analog tape sounds right. Many do too. |
No,I don't believe that anymore, if so I would return to a turntable again. Both formats can be setup to sound superb and I can enjoy both equally well. My opinion only, I know how heated this topic often becomes with analog aficionados 😊. I listen to excellent analog systems of friends and enjoythe experience quite a bit. I'm just as engaged with my system.
Charles, |
I see. If your system sounds great with digital it would sound beyond that with analog. I know that you know it. |
Hi Inna,
Jazz is my passion, live venues (2 to 3 times a month for about 25 years) and of course recordings. I was quite an analog dieheart for many years. Six years I’ve have my digital front end and it has been enormously satisfying, so no looking back. I never tire of hearing talented jazz musicians up close and personal (and they are a splendid template for the ears).
Charles, |
Charles, I took a look at your page. You appear to be into classical jazz a lot. What analogue source do you use, I didn't see any ? |
Charles, if I may ask, what kind of music do you mostly listen to ? Classical ? I am very familiar with live classical music especially big orchestra and opera music. I don't listen to it but I know how it should sound. |
Hi Horacio (Lewinskih01),
My perception has been that Ralph is often not here on weekends, so I’ll give your question a shot while we await his more experience-based response.
The rough approximation you mentioned earlier to the effect that the 350 to 2000 Hz range within which your 100 db/W driver will be operated means that roughly around 25% of the system’s total power requirement would typically be supplied to that driver seems to me to be a reasonable ballpark assumption, for many and perhaps most recordings. If we assume that the amp is reasonably well matched to the driver’s impedance, and can put out a maximum of about 1 watt, the resultant 100 db maximum SPL at 1 meter would correspond to about 90.5 db at a listening distance of say 3 meters, neglecting room effects. Two speakers can be expected to raise that by 3 db (and potentially by 6 db, depending on listening position, but let’s be conservative and assume 3 db). So that brings us to 93.5 db. As a very rough guess let’s assume that room reflections would raise that by another 3 db, to around 96.5 db. Given the 25% assumption, outputs from the other drivers would raise the total maximum SPL to around 102.5 db.
To avoid operating the amp above say 25% of its power capability (Ralph mentioned numbers equivalent to 20% but using 25% eliminates the need for me to pull out my calculator for the subsequent calculation), 6 db would be subtracted from that amount, resulting in a maximum SPL at the listening position, with the amp operating in its presumed comfort zone, of about 96.5 db.
That will be good enough for the great majority of recordings for the great majority of listeners, IMO. However recordings having particularly wide dynamic range, such as well engineered minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings on labels such as Telarc, Sheffield Labs, Reference Recordings, etc., could very possibly put the amp out of its comfort zone, IMO, and perhaps even occasionally drive it into clipping, on very brief high volume dynamic peaks. Even though those recordings might be played back at average levels of perhaps 75 db or so.
I have many such recordings, that I listen to fairly regularly, so for me a system must be able to cleanly generate SPLs of 105 db at the listening position to be acceptable. For most recordings, genres, and listeners, however, I suspect that a maximum capability of 96.5 db would be fine. Especially given that the amp could provide 6 db or so of additional capability if occasionally necessary, albeit with some increase in distortion. For an example of a recording having exceptionally wide dynamic range (although in this case the highest volume levels are reached on notes having much of their energy in the deep bass region), listen to the last five minutes or so of the ca. 1979 Telarc recording of Stravinsky’s Firebird Suite, Robert Shaw conducting the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Or4x6RXyU. (Feel free to ignore the images).
Note how the volume of the music descends to barely a whisper shortly before the start of the finale at 17:25, and then rises to a concluding note that with the recording played in my system at average levels of perhaps 75 db or so closely approaches 105 db at my listening position. The 30 db difference means that around 1000 times as much power is required to produce that concluding note as is required to produce the average level of the recording. And based on SPL measurements I have taken, and on waveforms I have had occasion to look at on a computer (using an audio editing program) for other recordings having comparable dynamic ranges, I feel fairly certain that the difference in volume between that note and the softest notes just before the finale is upward of 50 db. Meaning that more than 100,000 times as much power is required for that note as for the softest notes.
In contrast, my understanding is that many and perhaps most pop and rock recordings are dynamically compressed to less than 10 db, meaning less than a 10x difference in power between the loudest and softest notes.
So given also my belief that perceived "loudness" tends to be mainly a function of average volume rather than peak volume, and given that the system you are building should easily be able to handle the average listening level of 85 to 90 db that you mentioned, it seems to me that the dynamic range of the music that is listened to is what should be considered as having the potential to drive the amp out of its comfort zone, if not to its limits.
One further comment: Consistent with one of the points Ralph stated earlier in the thread, in the absence of detailed technical information for the specific SPL meter that one may use I would not assume that the meter and its microphone necessarily have either the speed or the frequency range to fully capture the maximum volume of a brief musical transient. Continued best of luck with your project. Best regards, -- Al
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Inna,
I will tell you that timing, musical pace,flow and drive are strengths of my SETamplifier be it small bands or larger combos. But again I don’t know what SET amplifiers you’ve used or are familiar with. As with any other genre of components there’s a hierarchy and broad spectrum of performance.
If you look at my system page you’ll see a picture of 3 sets of mono block amplifiers, my SET,my 100 watt push pull and a borrowed Lamm push-pull 90 watt amp. Of these three choices the SET mono blocks were the best sounding driving the same speakers in my room. I appreciated the generous loan of the Lamm from a friend. It’s the most expensive of the three amplifiers but wasn’t the best sounding.
Now again that is only my assessment based on my taste and my system. You or someone else could rank them differently and that is easily understood. What moves me may not move another listener, no arguement on that point. It simply depends on what you want. We listen,compare and ultimately decide. If ever an undertaking was subjective, it is definitely High End audio and listening to music. The SET elicited the most emotion and musical communication/involvement.
Charles, |
Hello Ralph (Atmasphere).
I've seen your comments before and I am keeping them in mind as I design/assemble my new system, a 4-way active. If using a 45 amp to only reproduce 350 to 2000Hz on a 100 dB/W driver in a 25m2 room and if average listening level is 85-90 dB SPL, would a 45 suffice or be driven to the point where 5th order harmonics become an issue?
Thank you! |
I'd read a lot about 45-based amps requiring very efficient speakers (over 100dB), but I've run 45 amps by Korneff, Burgess and Yamamoto with Vaughn Triode speakers (97dB) with great success.
My room is 21'x19', I generally don't listen to very loud music (in the mid-70dB range) , but the system was capable of much more and with a wide variety of music.
Ultimately, I went back to Harbeth with a high-powered SS amp, but I do miss the lushness and intimacy of the 45. |
Ami, that's one of the things that I said - two very different systems.
Charles, of course I like what you do as well. But that's not all. Even flamenco music requires speed an drive let alone Mahavishnu Orchestra's jazz fusion. Bass is important too. Not exaggerated, but just as it was recorded.
It does appear that I strongly gravitate to Lamm/Atma-Sphere camp. Never heard VAC or Allnic let alone Ypsilon and Absolare. |
I am using a Yamamoto A08S SET 45 with EML mesh tubes, driving a pair of Zu Audio Druids in a dedicated listening room about 15'x18' and the result is just stunning.
The transparency, detail, tempo, balance and realism is far beyond anything I've ever owned before, or even heard with other people's systems, some costing 10x and more. The cost of my amp + speakers (new) is less than $9K. I couldn't be happier with this setup.
True, it doesn't play nearly as loud as my living room 60lbs, 700 Watt Classe SS amplifier, and I don't expect it to.
When I want to turn the volume up and listen to hard rock, metal or electronic music at live concert levels, I do it in my living room with a system that excels at that :-)
Maybe one can have both worlds. I haven't found that setup yet, but I can only guess is that if it does exist, it will probably cost 20x more than both my systems together. |
Hello Inna,
I can’t honestly say that I know your musical/listening taste, rather I recognize that you prefer amplifiers of a certain power range. My taste is unambiguously towards the natural/organic sound with tactile realism.
The Concert Fidelity SS amplifiers do that exceptionally well. I’ve only heard them with their sibling tube Line Stage which only further helps I’m sure. It’s a pure and natural sound character rather than electronic (the bane of many SS amplifiers IMO).
Charles, |
Larry,
Thank you. Never heard of Vinni Rossi. Zanden is very high end.
Charles,
Concert Fidelity, are they more to your taste or mine as you see it? Or both? |
Larryi,
I'll stray off topic one last time 😊. One of the very best sounding SS amplifiers I've heard are the Concert Fidelity ZL 120 and their ZL 200. This little known Japanese products sound absolutely fabulous. They're hardly ever written or talked about, too bad.
Charles, |
Inna, Some other integrated amps to consider include something from Vinni Rossi (can be configured in MANY different ways, including tube stages) and Lavardin and LFD integrated amps (simple, really nice sounding medium power integrated amps). I've heard these with speakers that were moderately efficient (Harbeths, Audio Note, J.M. Reynaud). As for a phono stage, Zanden makes a few nice tube and solid state versions; the most fun feature being a choice of different equalization curves. I have heard the Symphonic power amp Charles mentioned and it is really very good for solid state. |
The idea would be to upgrade my Redgum integrated with better integrated, preferably with Symphonic Line or Gryphon, or perhaps Gamut or Vitus. I also would like to replace my AcousTech phono with a tube one, an excellent tube one, Lamm or VAC etc. And then go with top level separates. I guess, Ypsilon will be out of reach unless one day I can find a used integrated. Still, I would most likely prefer Lamm of VAC or Atma-Shere separates to Ypsilon integrated, or it just might be different. |
Inna,
I hope you have an opportunity to hear a Symphonic Line power amplifier. They’re very high quality solid state designs and I believe you will be impressed with them.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
Yes, I would prefer high powered tube or hybrid amp. However, ideally I would have two different systems. One system is a compromise too. The music I listen to varies from acoustic guitar and vocal to world music to jazz fusion. The amp doesn't have to be insanely powerful, just great 100 watts and efficient enough speakers. For medium size room this would be just right.
Symphonic Line I might try too later if I can find it, or older Gryphon, before I go with tubes or Lamm hybrid.
I appreciate your input too and understand , I think, what you are saying. |
Hi Inna,
I appreciate your input and perspective. At the end of the day we all develop audio systems that reflect our sonic destinations. From reading various post from you I realize you ideal setup would favor high power tube 0r SS amplifiers, I understand that choice .We have very likely experienced different outcomes with low power tube amplifiers, no problem.
My last owned transistor amplifier was a Symphonic Line RG7. It was a very fine amp. In my listening it doesn’t measure up to my current SET amplifier overall and particularly in the areas that matter most to me. Common sense and experience dictate that no amplifier or component is without some flaw and thus compromised. Given your objectives I believe you’d prefer the Symphonic Line, I get that. No matter how you cut it ultimately selection is based on what we hear in our systems. As is evident here that will vary greatly amongst listeners.
Charles,
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My point is that with more efficient speakers you would like it more, as the more efficient speakers can bring out more of that that amp can do right. That’s a very good way to put it and not just in this more extreme case (only a few good watts available) but in all cases amp/speaker integration is one of the most fundamental things to address and get right. Otherwise it may still sound good within limits but you may not be getting the most possible out of your overall sound investment and you may not even know what you are missing otherwise. |
2nd order can sound good to the ear. Enjoying our system choice is what
its about not if its optimal or not, so if you like it dare I say its
right. The concern of course is not the 2nd harmonic, but the presence of the 5th and above. 100 db peaks is definitely desirable in a good hifi system. In fact it
should be a basic criteria while choosing the speaker-amp-room combo.
But 100 db continuous SPL is very loud. This. 100 db peaks should be no problem for any system, that is if you want to be able to reproduce 90 db correctly. Most peaks don't show on a sound pressure meter as high as they really are due to their transient nature. What bothers me is that all the talk about these amps REQUIRING 100 db +
efficient speakers dissuades people from even trying a setup like mine.
I think you might be missing my point. Clearly there is something about that type 45 amp you like. My point is that with more efficient speakers you would like it more, as the more efficient speakers can bring out more of that that amp can do right. I am speaking from direct experience here as I have had type 45 amps at home for years. |
IMO nearly the entire endeavor of assembling an audio system is subjective
I started out that way because I basically knew nothing about how this stuff really works. I even lost interest for years because my sound was not what I wanted and I was too lazy to figure out why. Things changed when I started to focus on really understanding what was going on. I was on teh right path soon after and finally found a happy place after not too long. There is a difference between what one likes which is subjective and the decision making process that gets one to their goals. That is best driven by objective learning to meet ones subjective goals. Everyone ends up differently as a result because we all have different goals but there are right and wrong approaches to most any undertaking. |
I have no problem with someone who tries a low power SET amp with well matched dynamic speakers, and concludes it doesn't work for them. What bothers me is that all the talk about these amps REQUIRING 100 db + efficient speakers dissuades people from even trying a setup like mine.
They may find it doesn't meet their needs, but they may also be very pleasantly surprised, like I was.
One of my most memorable experiences was listening at home after attending a live orchestral concert, and thinking "Wow, this actually sounds like what I heard in the hall!".
Massed strings in the concert hall can have this amazing "singing" quality, which is hard to reproduce at home. My system got it right (among many other things).
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Charles, of course it's an emotional experience and I would be the first one to defend the subjectivity, I just invited everyone not to get cocooned in it while communicating and conveying certain aspects of the subjectivity. Even each instrument has its own 'subjectivity', in a manner of speaking, its own unique voice. However, low powered system, or an instrument, would have too many limitations, and no matter how great it may at times sound, this would not be enough for me. Speaking of instruments, the greatest I've ever heard was a Conti custom guitar played by Paco de Lucia. Yes, it was made as a flamenco guitar not classical or blues guitar, but I am quite certain it would play anything extremely well. If it was still a compromise - it was a great one. Anyone heard Amati or Stradivarius ? |
Hello Inna, IMO nearly the entire endeavor of assembling an audio system is subjective. You listen to components and it is either yay or nay. You either like the resulting sound quality or you don't. Listening to music is an emotional experience. How does one eliminate the obvious and innate subjectivity aspect? Who decides their satisfaction with components/system without use of their ears?
Charles, |
Charles, I was not talking about the OP's situation and preferences. My car analogy was intentionally grotesque and should be taken as such. I wanted to emphasize particular points not discuss the subjectivity of one's happiness.
I too could have SET low power amp based system but that would not be my main system.
Let's not drown in subjectivity because that would be the end of a potentially interesting discussion. Most of the time Audiogon is a very boring place. |
100 db peaks is definitely desirable in a good hifi system. In fact it should be a basic criteria while choosing the speaker-amp-room combo. But 100 db continuous SPL is very loud. |
Inna I don’t think your automobile analogy applies to the OP’s situation , it seems rather you have projected your own specific desires and preferences.
If anyone reads his comments carefully it’s very evident that he’s quite happy with the performance of his system’s sound quality. It seems that Larryi recognized this obvious point. Others are suggesting that they wouldn’t be satisfied with this amp-speaker pairing( peak volume limits?). That’s fine however they aren’t the OP who happens to be very pleased with what he has. I can certainly understand why he is.
Charles, |
Yes the main point is it is not "ideal" but yet another compromise with trade offs that some perhaps many might easily live with.
A watt or two can also go much further when highest and lowest octaves are rolled off. That’s a reasonable trade-off as well that some systems might offer over others. My decent sounding table radio works that way. :^) Midrange freaks can be in nirvana for not as much. you might even hear things in recordings not heard on many much larger and more powerful systems.
Or if size and cost of speakers is no issue, and you are not adverse to large horns (good ones are very pricey), then you should be golden in the end with just a couple precious watts. Now that’s an option I think I might definitely be able to live with in the right house/room designed with that in mind. But its not where I am at currently.
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A 45 if used just on a mid horn of 106db plus is a wonderful thing and if possible one should try to hear such but if poster enjoys the 45 with the AN nothing wrong with that. 2nd order can sound good to the ear. Enjoying our system choice is what its about not if its optimal or not, so if you like it dare I say its right. |
Also, power is felt. Listen to the same music with the same 105 db speakers at the same db level, not loud, with equal quality amps that have different power capabilities, and there will be a difference.
That's why live music sounds so different - it has the power that cannot so far be either fully captured on the recording or reproduced.
Yes, certain aspects of midrange are best reproduced by particular design amps, but not all aspects. And there are other frequences and other things that are much more important. Sophisticated textures are great but other aspects far outweigh this. |
To me, having an amp that sounds not as good as the 45 SET (if that is one's preferred sound) when playing at the regular volume one listens at, just to have the capability of delivering clean sound at extreme peaks when listening at higher levels is more "ridiculous;" I'll take better sound for 99.99% of the time and sacrifice quality for the brief moments when higher peak output would be desirable. It is all a matter of what compromises one is willing to accept. I don't know of a single component, at any price, that I thought was free of some performance compromise in certain respects vis-a-vis another. I am in agreement with Atmasphere that the use of a 45 SET amp by the OP is not "ideal," but I also agree with Charles 1 dad and the OP that one can really like such a combination, particularly if one can live with the "compromise" of more modest listening levels. |
It's like a car that only drives well on quiet perfect straight roads in sunny weather using 95 octane gasoline at 50 miles per hour and needing service every 1000 miles at most. In some cases it will do but, generally speaking, it is, if you will forgive this, ridiculous. Atmashere was very very polite. |
I am a big fan of the 45 tube. I have heard it used in parallel single-ended, pushpull (I own a pushpull 45 amp) and in single output tube single-ended configuration. It delivers a very punchy, clear and detailed sound when operated well within its upper output limit. I think someone can effectively utilize a 45 SET amp with the AN-Es in a smaller room, provided that one accepts that it will not be able to play at high volume levels. I am quite familiar with the AN-E and I have heard it with some fairly low-powered amps; a local dealer frequently pairs the AN-E with an Audio Note Kageki amp which is rated at 6.5 wpc. I can hear the limitations of this amp when playing demanding music, such as large choral pieces. The music begins to suffer from compression and becomes muddled and unfocussed to a slight degree. But, these are problems I can see someone living with because, for the VAST majority of the time, a good 45 amp will sound great. I do agree with Atmasphere that a 45 SET is really best used with extremely high efficiency horn systems. A friend had such an amp for his107 db/w system and it sounded great. That kind of combination can be recommended without much reservations; the use of a 45 SET with something like the AN-E can only be recommended with the caveat about limited volume levels. |
Many lesser solutions have their charms. People choose or settle for them all the time.
The merits can be argued subjectively only. Often that’s enough for many of similar mindset.
Its just one of those things that some may go completely gaga over for good reasons but probably not so much with those who care more about technical aspects or what works best together or not and why.
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"100 db peaks should be effortless and relaxedd" Atmasphere wrote.
I understand your point however that is a loud volume and is perceived as such via healthy ears. I previously cited this volume le jazz club I frequently attend. It's an intimate environment with the musicians unmixed probably 90%of the time.
You're listening to the pure sound straight from the instruments without the imposition of electronic distortion. Under these ideal circumstances when they hit the 100 db level "it sounds loud". Painful or uncomfortable? No, very loud? Yes. My point is some listeners would want to duplicate this at home and some would not. Either is preference.
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My approach is I want to be able to enjoy listening at any practical volume needed. The only way to accomplish this is to avoid clipping and distortion.
One might be satisfied with lower volumes only but if speaker amp integration is not done well one may practically have no other choice.
Also distortion usually sets in at subtle levels that may not be clearly audible well before one becomes aware of a problem.
One may certainly choose to not care about these things but they are real issues to consider and understand for best results in most any case IMHO.
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When I checked my levels in the past, I didn't get much above 90 db on
peaks. That was setting it as loud as I would ever want to listen. Most
of the time, it was lower than that. 100 db peaks must be painful, not
to mention the potential for hearing damage. If 100 db peaks are painful, either you already have some sort of hearing damage or the amplifier is making a lot of distortion. The measure of any good system is the quality wherein it is not easy to figure out how loud its playing without instruments (sound level meter) or trying to talk to someone beside you and be heard. IOW 100 db peaks should be effortless and relaxed!! Usually when a system sounds like it is loud or verging on painful that is a sure indication that distortion is playing a role. The usual solution is more power so that the amp will not make distortion. In Tommy's case, with only about 0.75 watts to 1 watt available, the maximum power before higher ordered harmonics appear is likely about 0.15 watts to 0.20 watts. The sound pressure with the Audio Notes at 1 meter is thus about 90 db (less at greater distances) before harshness sets in. From his comments it appears to me that he is routinely pushing the amp too hard- he is likely further from the speakers than just 1 meter. Unless he's listening in a very lively environment or in a very small room, the simple fact is that a more efficient speaker will bring out a lot more of the magic that 45s have in spades (I have type 45 amps BTW; my speakers are 98 db and the amps fall flat on their face because they simply don't make the power. My room is 17' x21'.). This is one of those situations where context is everything as Charlesdad points out. For example, as a desktop setup this would be pretty sweet. But for serious home listening I'd want a speaker that was more like 107 db, such as the Hartsfield or something like that. The magic of SETs comes from the fact that as power is reduced, so is distortion, down to the point where it becomes unmeasurable. When you are running distortion this low, the result is that more detail is revealed as it is not obscured by the distortion due to the human ear's masking rule. A type 45 amp no if ands or buts has wider bandwidth than higher powered SETs- that is why it sounds better. If you really want to hear what that is all about a high efficiency speaker is mandatory. |
Just just to make things clear, I'm not saying one can pair 45s (or other low power SETs) with ANY quality dynamic speakers, and expect good results. However, higher efficiency dynamics, that are known to present a benign load (like the Audio Notes), are a very viable option. Especially if you prefer to listen at low to moderate levels.
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Hello Tommie,
Given your preferred listening levels and comfort zone I can understand why you are satisfied with your 45 SET and Audio Note speaker match, Congratulations. As I mentioned earlier not everyone desires or wants to listen that loudly (100db or greater peaks). This is strictly an individual preference issue. If you have good hearing ability (and want to preserve it) your limits of listening volume would satisfy many other listeners as well. To each their own as the saying goes. Tommie 100 db SPL is loud (though not necessarily uncomfortable). I’ve measured this level at live venues with unamplified instruments and even under these natural conditions (no electronic distortions via PA system) it’s definitely perceived as loud. I’m assuming that a listener is without some degree of hearing loss. Otherwise perception of loudness would certainly vary.
Charles, |
When I checked my levels in the past, I didn't get much above 90 db on peaks. That was setting it as loud as I would ever want to listen. Most of the time, it was lower than that. 100 db peaks must be painful, not to mention the potential for hearing damage.
I'll have to pull out my db meter and check again.
I use an autoformer passive preamp. My understanding is that, in contrast to a resistive volume control, the output impedance gets lower as you lower the setting. This results in better sound at lower volumes, which corresponds with my experience. |
