Hello,
I happen to agree with your comments. This is why I often state that you actually have to listen to a component/system to get to the truth. Otherwise it’s far too easy for preformed opinion to be presented as fact. I have 94 dB sensitivity/ 14 ohms speakers that I originally drove with 100 watt PP tube amplifiers(60 watt in triode mode) and this match was exceptionally good sounding.
Strong curiosity led me to purchase an 8 watt SET amplifier (mono blocks) using 300b tubes seven years ago. For my particular listening needs and taste the 8 watt SET improved my system’s presentation and moved it to a higher level. In other words I went from legitimately "very good " to superb . It all depends on what musical and sonic parameters are most important for a individual listener. I’m glad that I took the chance to try the lower power amplifiers. The crucial key is defining what type of sound you are looking to achieve. |
Atmasphere raises a valid point however context is essential. How loud is loud enough ? Clearly there’s no single right answer as limits are individually set by a listener. We all determine our respective comfort zones of SPL(sound pressure level). Tommie’s Audio Note speakers are 95-97 db sensitivity. If he listens at say an average SPL 75-80 db he’s using mini watt power i.e. small fractions of 1 watt. Depending on room size and music genre he is likely as happily content as he describes. The vast majority of his enjoyable listening could be occurring in the mini watt power region. numerous variables must be considered. "Just right" volume level for one person may be too soft or too loud for another.
Tommie what SPL do you typically listen at in your home? Not everyone seeks 100-110 db peaks.it all depends on what makes you satisfied. |
Hello Tommie,
Given your preferred listening levels and comfort zone I can understand why you are satisfied with your 45 SET and Audio Note speaker match, Congratulations. As I mentioned earlier not everyone desires or wants to listen that loudly (100db or greater peaks). This is strictly an individual preference issue. If you have good hearing ability (and want to preserve it) your limits of listening volume would satisfy many other listeners as well. To each their own as the saying goes. Tommie 100 db SPL is loud (though not necessarily uncomfortable). I’ve measured this level at live venues with unamplified instruments and even under these natural conditions (no electronic distortions via PA system) it’s definitely perceived as loud. I’m assuming that a listener is without some degree of hearing loss. Otherwise perception of loudness would certainly vary.
Charles, |
"100 db peaks should be effortless and relaxedd" Atmasphere wrote.
I understand your point however that is a loud volume and is perceived as such via healthy ears. I previously cited this volume le jazz club I frequently attend. It's an intimate environment with the musicians unmixed probably 90%of the time.
You're listening to the pure sound straight from the instruments without the imposition of electronic distortion. Under these ideal circumstances when they hit the 100 db level "it sounds loud". Painful or uncomfortable? No, very loud? Yes. My point is some listeners would want to duplicate this at home and some would not. Either is preference.
|
Inna I don’t think your automobile analogy applies to the OP’s situation , it seems rather you have projected your own specific desires and preferences.
If anyone reads his comments carefully it’s very evident that he’s quite happy with the performance of his system’s sound quality. It seems that Larryi recognized this obvious point. Others are suggesting that they wouldn’t be satisfied with this amp-speaker pairing( peak volume limits?). That’s fine however they aren’t the OP who happens to be very pleased with what he has. I can certainly understand why he is.
Charles, |
Hello Inna, IMO nearly the entire endeavor of assembling an audio system is subjective. You listen to components and it is either yay or nay. You either like the resulting sound quality or you don't. Listening to music is an emotional experience. How does one eliminate the obvious and innate subjectivity aspect? Who decides their satisfaction with components/system without use of their ears?
Charles, |
Hi Inna,
I appreciate your input and perspective. At the end of the day we all develop audio systems that reflect our sonic destinations. From reading various post from you I realize you ideal setup would favor high power tube 0r SS amplifiers, I understand that choice .We have very likely experienced different outcomes with low power tube amplifiers, no problem.
My last owned transistor amplifier was a Symphonic Line RG7. It was a very fine amp. In my listening it doesn’t measure up to my current SET amplifier overall and particularly in the areas that matter most to me. Common sense and experience dictate that no amplifier or component is without some flaw and thus compromised. Given your objectives I believe you’d prefer the Symphonic Line, I get that. No matter how you cut it ultimately selection is based on what we hear in our systems. As is evident here that will vary greatly amongst listeners.
Charles,
|
Inna,
I hope you have an opportunity to hear a Symphonic Line power amplifier. They’re very high quality solid state designs and I believe you will be impressed with them.
Charles, |
Larryi,
I'll stray off topic one last time 😊. One of the very best sounding SS amplifiers I've heard are the Concert Fidelity ZL 120 and their ZL 200. This little known Japanese products sound absolutely fabulous. They're hardly ever written or talked about, too bad.
Charles, |
Hello Inna,
I can’t honestly say that I know your musical/listening taste, rather I recognize that you prefer amplifiers of a certain power range. My taste is unambiguously towards the natural/organic sound with tactile realism.
The Concert Fidelity SS amplifiers do that exceptionally well. I’ve only heard them with their sibling tube Line Stage which only further helps I’m sure. It’s a pure and natural sound character rather than electronic (the bane of many SS amplifiers IMO).
Charles, |
Inna,
I will tell you that timing, musical pace,flow and drive are strengths of my SETamplifier be it small bands or larger combos. But again I don’t know what SET amplifiers you’ve used or are familiar with. As with any other genre of components there’s a hierarchy and broad spectrum of performance.
If you look at my system page you’ll see a picture of 3 sets of mono block amplifiers, my SET,my 100 watt push pull and a borrowed Lamm push-pull 90 watt amp. Of these three choices the SET mono blocks were the best sounding driving the same speakers in my room. I appreciated the generous loan of the Lamm from a friend. It’s the most expensive of the three amplifiers but wasn’t the best sounding.
Now again that is only my assessment based on my taste and my system. You or someone else could rank them differently and that is easily understood. What moves me may not move another listener, no arguement on that point. It simply depends on what you want. We listen,compare and ultimately decide. If ever an undertaking was subjective, it is definitely High End audio and listening to music. The SET elicited the most emotion and musical communication/involvement.
Charles, |
Hi Inna,
Jazz is my passion, live venues (2 to 3 times a month for about 25 years) and of course recordings. I was quite an analog dieheart for many years. Six years I’ve have my digital front end and it has been enormously satisfying, so no looking back. I never tire of hearing talented jazz musicians up close and personal (and they are a splendid template for the ears).
Charles, |
No,I don't believe that anymore, if so I would return to a turntable again. Both formats can be setup to sound superb and I can enjoy both equally well. My opinion only, I know how heated this topic often becomes with analog aficionados 😊. I listen to excellent analog systems of friends and enjoythe experience quite a bit. I'm just as engaged with my system.
Charles, |
Inna,
I understand your position as this debate is discussed to the point of Ad nauseam (and this is unlikely to change). So in this case we respectfully agree to disagree. Both sides of this argument have plenty of company 😊😊.
Charles, |
Lewinskih01,
You have the right attitude and I wish you well. Sometimes you have to ignore well meaning warnings based on preconceived notions. When I became interested in SET amplifiers the warnings were, limited music genre, pleasant but very colored midrange, very little bass or high frequency information. All were completely wrong and in hindsight total nonsense. The past 7 years with my SET 300b based system has provided the most vibrant,open,transparent, organic and emotional involvement I’ve ever experienced. I wish you the best of success moving forward with your project.
Charles, |
"Technical facts" by no means tell the entire story. As has been mentioned on this site numerous times, measurements and specifications play a fundamental role primarily in determining electrical matching/suitability of audio components. So it is an effective screening tool. I'm unaware of anyone here disputing this point. What determines if someone will be happy with chosen components is listening to them following the initial screening. It's a two stage process. For my purposes listening is required to make judgements regarding the merits of audio products. Others may utilize alternative methods.
Charles, |
I don’t know of anyone who begins their entry into High End audio with SETs. Most everyone I know who enjoy these amps tend to be very experienced and have owned quite a few different amplifiers before hand. This scenario would certainly describe my journey. Having gone through various good quality SS and push pull tube amplifiers helped me quickly recognized the significant attributes of a SET. Tommy I suspect that the 45 SET I isn’t your first amplifier.
Charles, |
Hi Larry,
There could be a few newbies to High End audio who begin with SETs (admittedly I have not done a survey) . As you correctly acknowledge it more often tends to be very experienced listeners where SET is an endpoint destination . Again you correctly note the barrier to sucessful adaptation, simple circuit but high quality parts/implementation are mandatory. The lower quality niche of SET will more likely fail to impress with their poor transformers and power supplies. Finally proper speaker match takes some knowledge and time. It's worth the effort in my opinion.
Larry I respect Mapman's insights and experiences. He has found much satisfaction with his class D amplifiers and I sincerely congratulate him. My exposure and listening to class D experiences are parallel to yours , there's just something missing that leaves me unfulfilled. As we both recognize these are simply individual impressions, no doubt that there are many happy users of these efficient amplifiers. I don't question Mapman's contentment by any means. I know what musically touches me but appreciate we all choose our individual paths.
Charles, |
Hi Gary,
The point Iwas attempting to make is what you and larry have noted regarding lower power (including SET) amplifiers. My Symphonic Line SS amplifier was really quite good sounding and I enjoyed it for nearly 3 years. It was powerful, refined, clear and dynamic. I really can not be critical of its performance and service.
Gary and larry alluded to the "lifeless" character of SS relatively speaking. This is precisely what I heard once I got my SET amplifier and Gary you’re right, it’s quite apparent. The tone and timbre took a step upwards, harmonic overtones were more developed and fleshed out. The flow,pace and musical timing were improved. The major overall effect in my system was increased presence,naturalness, vividness, simply more life and emotion.
Brownsfan,
I still enjoy listening to vinyl in other system’s very much, a good friend has a wonderful sounding Basis table and arm with an Aesthetic Phono stage. Yet I find high quality digital front end setups equally engaging. As with you I am not compelled to return to an analog front end. I’m deeply experiencing the musical message with digital these days.
Charles, |
Mapman,
If someone wants to brush off the improved harmonics as 2nd order distortion, have at it. My SS amp was drier and flatter in tonality. This fleshed out presentation is much closer to what I hear when listening to live unamplified instruments. So I'll happily take this increased realism and be appreciative of it 😊😊. We have a family piano and the SET comes closer to its sound, that's good enough for me.
Charles, |
Mapman,
I believe you'll be happy with either a SET or OTL amplifier with those speakers. I'm very familiar with the Atma-Sphere MA-1 and their 60 watt amplifiers. Regarding SET just be sure to get one with good quality output transformers and well developed power supplies. These are the last areas to compromise if you want top sound quality.
Charles, |
Hello Mapman,
My comments about realistic piano sound was in response to your mentioning 2nd order harmonics vs "accurate reproduction. The SET sounds more like a live piano than other amplifiers I’ve used in my system. I believe it is due to the ability to capture and preserve the nuances and subtle musical cues that are so important. The resonance of the soundboard and vibration of the strings etc. This level of information heightens the sense of presence and the benefit is a more convincing presentation.
It isn’t a case of the SS not sounding good, but rather it couldn’t fool you to the same extent as the SET in presenting believable presence. As a consequence the SET was superior of distinguishing both the players (Monk,Peterson,Ellington or Evans). This also applies to brand differences (Yamaha, Fazioli,Bosendorfer or Steinway). Even less apparent nuances are more clearly contrasted.
This ability to finely discriminate is consistent with all instruments in my listening experiences. I’ve come to realize that perhaps the greatest strength of good SET is its admirable way with the micro,ultra subtle but very necessary details. That it does this in such a natural manner is what’s so impressive. It doesn’t resort to a sterile or analytical character in order to present this beautiful inner detail.
Mapman,
You should give the Atma-Sphere S 30 serious consideration as a lower power and smaller OTL alternative (if you prefer OTL rather than SET).. Surely a good match with your speakers. Either direction, good luck.
Charles, |
Tommie,
You're very happy with your amplifier and speakers, I wouldn't change a thing.
Charles, |
|
