At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light.
Hi @nugat
And are the cables NASA uses where they must conform to strict regulation to observe directionality used as audio speaker wire?
Ehmm....I would hope people get the NASA joke. I asked a simple question in the beginning and people gave answers to questions I did not ask. Perhaps there was never a scientific double blind test of audio cables conducted. I learned here how flawed science is, even trying to find objective truth. Well, instead we have post-truth tweeted to the whole world. People have not only own opinions but also own facts. NASA never flew men to the Moon, BTW.
I can understand wanting objective, unbiased information about the sound of cables, or other equipment, before trying them for yourself. Unfortunately, it is scarce. This hobby is fundamentally a subjective one. It is ultimately about what YOU hear, in YOUR system.
There are areas of general agreement, but no one can tell you for sure what a particular product will sound like to your ears, in your system, or even if you will hear a difference at all. This means that there is an inherent element of risk. You do your research, read reviews and forum posts, talk to any friends or acquaintances who have experience with it, arrange to audition it somewhere, if possible/practical. Then, once you are reasonably assured that it is likely to make a positive difference in your system, you take the plunge.
Just for the record the assumption that the onus is on the person making the claim is an old wives tale. It’s a myth perpetrated by clever little Skeptic Scamps. And that’s precisely why you won’t see any court cases - ever - where someone somewhere decides to take some cable or tweak manufacturer to task legally over some preposterous-sounding claim or another. Want some prime examples? OK, Silver Rainbow Foil, Morphic Message Foils, Clever Little Clock, the Intelligent Chip, the Teleportation Tweak, Mpingo disc, the Blue Fuse, tiny little bowl resonators.
Besides it’s not as if I’m the only one making the claim. I’m afraid you’re going to have to demand that every single person who has reported positive results over the last twenty five years perform blind tests, including all the cable companies who are advanced enough in their thinking to control directionality of their cables and cords.
At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light.
Hi @nugat
And are the cables NASA uses where they must conform to strict regulation to observe directionality used as audio speaker wire?
At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light.
Sorry, but no one here is obligated to test anything for your benefit.
@cleeds
No apology necessary.
You should know, I happen to agree with you (quoted above) completely.
Thing is, it’s my assertion that the "benefit" actually lies with the person making the claim, not with the person disputing it.
And please know, in no way am I intentionally wanting to be obstinate in my thinking here. But being able to hear a difference when speaker wire is reversed? Seriously? And to write that in a thread devoted to "scientific double blinded cable test". How *un-scientific" can that statement be? LOL.
That's fine, you needn't accept the observations of others. Please feel free to conduct your own blind testing, and to share the results with the forum.
Just to reiterate what I've already stated, I certainly do perform my own (with the help of an assistant) blind testing in cases where I hear (or believe I do) a difference, in order to confirm/deny my observation.
But in cases where I'm *not* the one making a claim to hear a difference - and wire directionality is one such case - then in my view the onus ought to placed on the person (Geoff) making such claim, not the one (me) disputing it.
... of all those on the forum
who have reported hearing a difference in wire direction over the
years, did any of that evidence involve any kind of blind testing? ... So without the blind test, the listener "evidence" is
meaningless as far as I'm concerned.
That's fine, you needn't accept the observations of others. Please feel free to conduct your own blind testing, and to share the results with the forum.
@geoffkait with regard to your 03-12-2018 7:31am post herein, I'm not disputing the resistance measurement being different in one direction or another. I'll save that dispute for another time and thread, if you don't mind.
But with specific regard to the listener evidence of all those on the forum who have reported hearing a difference in wire direction over the years, did any of that evidence involve any kind of blind testing?
From what I've read from you thus far within this thread, it has not. Hence my point that perhaps if those same listeners were to subject themselves to a blind test, they might (or might not) arrive at a difference conclusion. So without the blind test, the listener "evidence" is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.
To your point "...anyone can try it for himself by reversing interconnects or speaker cables or a fuse. It’s not rocket science" of course. But to reiterate, performing that activity knowing what you have or have not reversed is completely, utterly and entirely different than not knowing (i.e. blind).
...The purpose of the double blind
test ... is to determine whether there is really a discernable
difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are
paying the dues to buy into an elite club.
Please tell us how you can design a double blind test that could determine why a listener might be unable to detect a difference between two items subject to the test.
gdhal “At the same though, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever, those such as Geoff who profess to hear positive differences in wire direction ought to keep that observation to himself (i.e. without posting on a public forum). It’s akin to someone writing "I can walk on water", and then expecting that no one will chime back in asking for proof. And while the hobby is not about proving anything, it shouldn’t/wouldn’t hurt where possible and applicable.”
>>>>>You act as though you’re a complete newcomer to a debate that has been going on for twenty years, at least. Are you Rip Van Winkle? 😬 We already have evidence that wire measures (resistance) better in one direction than the other from the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site that involves measuring directionality of fuses. And it’s always that direction that sounds better. It’s not random. And all fuses are directional, not just the latest spate of high end fuses. And they’re direction because the wire itself in the fuse is directional.
We also have evidence of all the high end cable manufacturers who control directionality and mark their cables with arrow to guide the user how to connect them. Have been for years. Especially very well established high end companies like Audioquest (very outspoken on the subject of directionality) that controls directionality for ALL of their cables including power cords and HDMI cables. Hel-loo! Wakey, wakey! Geez, you’d have to believe there is some sort of enormous global conspiracy by manufacturers attempting to fool gullible and naive audiophiles. We also have the evidence of all those who have reported on these forums over the years, the great many years, hearing differences in fuse direction and cable direction. Wake up and smell the roses! 🌷🌷🌷
This whole directionality debate serves as an excellent example of the Backfire Effect, which is what oft occurs to someone has strong beliefs or is extremely skeptical when confronted with contradictory evidence. He becomes more strongly convinced he must actually be right and that the contrary evidence is intended to somehow deceive him. The more contrary evidence the stronger the Backfire. Ka-pow!
As Juror 3, the last holdout in 12 Angry Men, kept saying, “You can’t prove it!” In many cases there is no proof, only evidence. We must weigh the evidence.
As I said anyone can try it for himself by reversing interconnects or speaker cables or a fuse. It’s not rocket science. 🚀
I don’t know that one can “prove” that wire sounds different (better) in one direction over the other to anyone but themselves. Especially if the person(s) you are trying to prove it to is not open to the idea, or even hostile towards it. Either they hear it for themselves, or they don’t. The great thing is that if you hear a positive difference, you don’t have to prove it to anyone in order to enjoy the benefits of it.
For me, this hobby is not about proving anything. It is about enjoying, engaging with, and being moved by, music in my home.
I agree with you @tommylion.
At the same though, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever, those such as Geoff who profess to hear positive differences in wire direction ought to keep that observation to himself (i.e. without posting on a public forum). It's akin to someone writing "I can walk on water", and then expecting that no one will chime back in asking for proof. And while the hobby is not about proving anything, it shouldn't/wouldn't hurt where possible and applicable.
Well, I did once do a single-blind test with Wireworld vs. Nogami. The results were interesting. My test subjects heard what I did, but completely disagreed on the value.
The Wireworld had better imaging, but was darker. Nogami lost out in imaging, but brighter, more enthusiastic presentation.
Of course, double blind is better, but it was convincing enough for me. Will I spend $300 on speaker cables again? No, but there's something interesting going on.
I don’t know that one can “prove” that wire sounds different (better) in one direction over the other to anyone but themselves. Especially if the person(s) you are trying to prove it to is not open to the idea, or even hostile towards it. Either they hear it for themselves, or they don’t. The great thing is that if you hear a positive difference, you don’t have to prove it to anyone in order to enjoy the benefits of it.
For me, this hobby is not about proving anything. It is about enjoying, engaging with, and being moved by, music in my home.
Wire directionality can easily explain the results of your test. Wire directionality was not even a gleam in an audiophile’s eye in the ‘80s. For all you guys knew, you were comparing directions, not cables. Would it be fair to say one person in the group had reasonably good hearing but the rest were of, uh, unknown or questionable ability? 🙄
@geoffkait I do wish you would read and comprehend before blasting
I doubt anyone could hear a significant difference between those two particular cables.
Approximately HALF the participants COULD tell the difference better than guessing. How else would we have come up with an even split?
I assume you were trying to portray Monster as a sort of high end cable.
We were not trying to portray anything. We were conducting an open test where anyone could participate and indicate whether they could repeatedly identify the cable as A or B. Any detected difference between the two cables was not captured as it was not relevant.
I had some Monster Cable circa 1983 and frankly, it sucked.
As I’ve mentioned several times, cable interacts with the amplifier and speakers. There are 3 possibilities relative to the existing cable: Better - No Change - Worse. While the cable maybe demonstrably worse electrically, it may be preferred by listeners in that system at that time.
In any case, as I’ve opined on more than a few occasions, a single test
As I said, "Some who took repeated tests could tell better than 80%." We structured the test so some would take it many times and each test series was different. Statistically, getting it right better than 80% that is way beyond what could be achieved by guessing.
means nothing when the results are inconclusive or negative.
There are multiple possible conclusions: Cables make no audible difference - Cables make an audible difference - The test was so poorly run with such bad equipment that it is impossible to tell.
There are many factors that biased against detecting differences: poor seating, distractions, poor room.
In other words you cannot draw any generalizations or conclusions.
Given that half the participants could reliably tell in adverse conditions, my takeaway was that people could distinguish differences... which I’ve maintained and reliably detected for more than 40 years.
And things have changed a little bit since the 80s, you betcha.
Yeah... lots of internet experts without one iota of technical expertise
Well, I certainly hope you’re not trying to convince us that everybody will get the same subtle results that you and your buds got. It all comes down to the sticky question, what exactly do tests prove, if anything - even when they’re positive? We already know what they prove when they’re negative, right?
Funny you should ask! Kidding, my buddy recently compared a few digital cables. We heard differences for sure. Hugh difference, well nope. Slight differences in overall dimension, clarity, smoothness, etc. The higher priced digital cable won out but not at two and a half the price difference. It also did not have the clarity of the cheaper cable. My other friend couId hear the differences in our other friends system but not that much in his system so system dependent? have stated many times in the past, swap out a few resistors and you will probably hear bigger differences. I have a selector switch in my preamp so I can change resistors to go with the recording on the fly!
It seems to me that those who are clamoring for blind tests should be the ones conducting the blind tests.
@cleeds
You are correct. However, that is a generalization. Within the context of this thread specifically the blind test I'm advocating for should be conducted by the party who has the most to gain or loose by the result of the test. Clearly that would be Geoff, as he is the one who professes that wire has directionality. I'd have to think *he* would be interested to learn if he could actually hear a difference.
That’s exactly right! Skeptics always demand that True Believers do the blind test. As if that will prove skeptics were right, after all. The skeptics never do the blind tests themselves. What are they afraid of?
@geoffkait
But it is posts from people like you that create skepticism in the first place! The burden of proof to your outlandish claims lies with you, not those that are skeptical of them.
Why would I deny or discount what I clearly hear, just because it doesn’t fit into someone else’s worldview? I don't need a blind test to prove to myself what I hear.
@tommylion
You wouldn't deny or discount what you hear just because someone else disagrees, doesn't hear what you do, etc. And you're absolutely correct that you do not need a blind test to prove anything to yourself.
So please allow me to ask your opinion - within the context of audio - how would one prove a wire is directional (i.e. can hear a difference oriented one way or the other) *without* a blind test?
So in some experiences, the "body" can discern before the mind.
There's an experiment where different stacks of playing cards have different pay/lose profiles. That is,some decks may reward/ punish in $5-$25 range, whereas other deck contains more big payout and punishment cards.
The test subjects hands are measured for voltaic conductance (sweaty palms) and it turns out the hands react differently when choosing which deck to play. That is, if the big emotional punches come from deck 3, the hands "knows" the difference in decks long before the conscious mind is aware of any difference or can articulate it.
So in some experiences, the "body" can discern before the mind.
jetter Lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The purpose of the double blind test, which geoff cannot help himself to react to other than by saying they are rigged, is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club.
>>>>I never said they are rigged, well, perhaps in the case of The Amazing Randi, who made very unreasonable demands on those tested. For example, having the test performed at a location of Randi’s choosing. Having to use a system of his (Randi’s) choosing. Having to use unfamiliar discs in the test. And having to pass ten consecutive tests. I mean, come on, people!
As far as other blind tests go, at least in the general sense, what I actually said is that they don’t prove anything if results are inconclusive or negative due to the myriad reasons tests can be corrupted. Just like any type of test. Reasons include but are not limited to failure to follow instructions, lack of experience in listening tests or plain old hearing impairment, and mistakes in the system. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. 🐁
I have more experience than the average bear when it comes to testing, not only testing for sound but in testing of very large expensive communications systems. Know what I mean, jelly bean?
It's already been pointed out (right here in this thread) that those with experienced ears score reliably above average in double blind tests. Somehow, comments like that get glossed over.
It's also been shown that listening takes time with a system one is familiar with and quick takes amount to nothing more than a parlor trick. Being easy to fool someone doesn't equate to their being wrong. Not too hard a concept to wrap ones head around.
There was someone who pointed out, on another thread, that the whole concept of expectation bias is inherent in those who refuse to believe there is a difference. It's very hard, if not outright impossible, to prove a negative. The naysayer will simply state he/she doesn't hear a difference no matter how obvious. Or eventually, that it's not of any significance.
One individual went so far as to say so on another, related thread. People he had invited over heard the difference, he did not, and yet he still said it was all B.S. I think the answer lies somewhere in there.
Lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The purpose of the double blind test, which geoff cannot help himself to react to other than by saying they are rigged, is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club.
I am not saying there is not a difference in sound. I totally applaud the test performed by Kevin at Upscale Audio and I think a lot of others did too. Wish I could have attended.
I can see where double blind tests might be useful for an equipment designer/manufacturer, but, when it comes to choosing equipment for my own enjoyment, I personally don't have much use for them. I also wonder if those who demand them from others actually conduct, or rely on, them themselves.
Why would I deny or discount what I clearly hear, just because it doesn’t fit into someone else’s worldview? I don't need a blind test to prove to myself what I hear.
If I hear that one cable sounds better than another in my system, and post about it here, it is directed towards those who accept the possibility that there is a difference. I am not trying to prove anything to, convert, or convince those who don’t hear any differences and/or deny they are possible. Why argue with someone who has a firmly established contrary opinion? I am sharing my experience and saying that, if you are interested and open, you might want to look into it further, and maybe try it for yourself. Why can’t those who disagree respect that? Why must you rudely and repeatedly chime in and express your unsolicited opinion, which is likely already well known? If I see a post or thread of yours that I disagree with, but I don’t have anything relevant or useful to say, I move on.
That’s exactly right! Skeptics always demand that True Believers do the blind test. As if that will prove skeptics were right, after all. The skeptics never do the blind tests themselves. What are they afraid of? Like I keep saying, the only real utility blind tests have for audio is as a weapon wielded by skeptics in the war on “irrational tweaks” and “preposterous ideas."
One also has to remember that a placebo'e efficacy in medicine is determined over the long run, and not with a minute of this and a minute of that, making an analogy to a blind test with cables a poor one at that.
In my view, it really shouldn’t be all that unreasonable to expect that
this same someone who professes superiority could detect whatever it is
he/she feels is superior in a blind test.
It seems to me that those who are clamoring for blind tests should be the ones conducting the blind tests.
However, I can offer an anecdotal story inspired by nugat, who stated, "
It can’t be that difficult. Pharmaceuticals are tested that way. Either something works comparing to placebo or not. And the variables are really complicated there."
I knew a girl whose brother sadly had traumatic brain damage, and would get seizures without medication. Well, somebody high up figured they could save money, generic is just as good. It has to be. It turned out if they gave him the generic medication, he would have seizures, if they gave him the name brand medication, he would not have seizures. This was not an imagined difference, yet the generic was stated to be tested to be EXACTLY the same as the name brand.
So I am remaining open-minded on this, and I think it is fine if the debate continues. At least from me, if I say, "I can't believe it," I'm only saying it sounds different from what I would expect, not attacking whoever is saying it and calling them a liar.
“This was essentially the test I ran at AES in the 80’s. It is difficult to get exactly the same LCR parameters for different construction. We used 12ga THNN 19 strand and a Monster Pro, also 12ga. Some who took repeated tests could tell better than 80%. Many who took the test only once got results far above guessing and some did worse than guessing. When results were tabulated, it was pretty well evenly split. Many of those who did poorly were firmly in the ’canbenodifference’ camp. Unfortunately, we did not collect information as to whether the participants could felt they could reliably determine differences or not. Just as some are color blind or tone deaf, some are not able to hear subtle differences in phase and level.”
>>>>>Huh? I doubt anyone could hear a significant difference between those two particular cables. I assume you were trying to portray Monster as a sort of high end cable. But perhaps not. I had some Monster Cable circa 1983 and frankly, it sucked. I did not say that to the head of Monster with whom I dined at CES some years later. In any case, as I’ve opined on more than a few occasions, a single test - even when carefully planned, thorough and performed by AES or any other illustrious group or person, means nothing when the results are inconclusive or negative. In other words you cannot draw any generalizations or conclusions. Of course, there are many reasons why a test can fail to achieve positive results, hence my rather dogmatic statement. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. And things have changed a little bit since the 80s, you betcha. So that’s another reason not to use the example from AES for any cable debate.
Furthermore, I suggest more interesting tests would be (1) stranded vs solid core, (2) copper vs silver, (3) cryo’d vs non-cryo’d, and (4) one direction vs the other. Then, I predict, your results will not (rpt not) be inconclusive.
“I think the reality is that many who maintain there are no differences between cables (or other things in audio) don’t want to deal with the personal and/or financial implications of such differences being real. Denying differences are possible is their way of avoiding those implications.“
LOL. I am over 100K invested in my setup and don’t have anything other than ordinary wires! I don’t need anything but ordinary wires because I bought high fidelity gear. If a 10K cable made a difference you can be assured I would have 4 or 5 of them.
To expand on the question? Has there ever been measurable speaker differences with different cables? ETC? Frequency response? Impedance? Has an amplifier ever displayed a different level of distortion using exotic power cables? As in does an amp begin 1% distortion at 100 watts with a stock power cable but managed 105 watts with an upgraded one?
Amps definitely show different response into loads with different wires. Some combinations will make a less than bulletproof amp shutdown or burn up.
It is possible that an amp may put out more level into a specific speaker / cable combination, but the difference between 100 and 105 is only 0.21db and would likely only affect very short peaks.
brianmoriarty:
Such a test would need to be performed in an ordinary room with speakers placed in less than ideal positions as the average listener would have things. Testing high-grade cables and low-grade cables of equal electrical properties, Like 2 coathanger’s stretched out compared with whatever high-end cable Of the same conductance.
This was essentially the test I ran at AES in the 80's. It is difficult to get exactly the same LCR parameters for different construction. We used 12ga THNN 19 strand and a Monster Pro, also 12ga. Some who took repeated tests could tell better than 80%. Many who took the test only once got results far above guessing and some did worse than guessing. When results were tabulated, it was pretty well evenly split. Many of those who did poorly were firmly in the 'canbenodifference' camp. Unfortunately, we did not collect information as to whether the participants could felt they could reliably determine differences or not. Just as some are color blind or tone deaf, some are not able to hear subtle differences in phase and level.
Quincy Jones once said that we mix in the studio making 0.1db changes for a great many who have trouble hearing 10db. Truer words were never spoken.
I think the reality is that many who maintain there are no differences between cables (or other things in audio) don’t want to deal with the personal and/or financial implications of such differences being real. Denying differences are possible is their way of avoiding those implications.
To the contrary, I think that often (though not always) the reality is that those who maintain there is a difference between cables, etc. and who profess the superiority of one over the other have arrived at their decision in an almost completely subjective manner. The only objectivity in these cases might be the reliance on technical measurements by the manufacturer or third-party entity.
In my view, it really shouldn’t be all that unreasonable to expect that this same someone who professes superiority could detect whatever it is he/she feels is superior in a blind test.
Question becomes, why wouldn’t you want to subject yourself to a blind test in order to further confirm your belief?
EDIT:
It should also be noted that in no way am I hypocritical in this regard. If one refers to my posts at the time I obtained my Yggdrasil, I compared it my my Oppo and Emotiva. I didn't just haphazardly arrive at a conclusion it sounds better, I proved it to my satisfaction. Part of the proof process was bling testing.
I think the reality is that many who maintain there are no differences between cables (or other things in audio) don't want to deal with the personal and/or financial implications of such differences being real. Denying differences are possible is their way of avoiding those implications.
Actually they can’t.That’s kind of my whole point. I’ll leave it to someone else to explain why not as I tire of repeating myself. 😛 True Believers 1, Naysayers 0,
Trouble is blind tests don’t prove anything. Their sole purpose in life is to be pushed by pseudo skeptics in an effort to scare audiophiles into submission. Randi perfected that flim flam years ago.
I’m afraid you’re have to do a lot better than that, old bean. The Amazing Randi offered $1 Million to pass his version of the blind test scam. I prefer not to get involved in blind test scams. Michael Fremer was also smart enough not to get involved with Randi’s blind test flim flam, even for a million duckaleros. As nice a person as Randi is personally, I might add. Thanks but no thanks. Been there done that. 😛
Your point about not linking to old posts because you may have more current data to offer is a fair reply. Thanks.
To your point about knowing that wire is directional, I'm using Belden 5T00UP speaker wire. Would you say that wire is directional? And, if you answer yes, would you say you could *hear* a difference if connected one direction or another?
If you answer yes to both, I have a business proposition - directly related to this thread - for you (or anyone who answers yes to both questions for that matter). Broadly, the proposition involves either a blind or double blind test where it is my position that you *cannot* reliably hear a difference, and it would be your position that you could reliably hear a difference.
If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile (low five figures?) we can have our attorney's draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on.
Just curious... in terms of information you are writing herein in response to the OPs post, why wouldn’t you just link to articles you’ve previously written? Wouldn’t your own time spent be better served if you were to perform your own cable reversal tests, listen for any audible differences, document same, and submit your findings as opposed to essentially re-entering all of your previous post? https://www.stereophile.com/content/wire-directionality-how-bad-it
>>>>Why would I test cables? I already know they’re directional. Wouldn’t it actually serve a better purpose if skeptics did their own tests? Skeptics already don’t believe in directionality, so they probably wouldn’t believe my test results either. As I said it’s not rocket science. 🚀 You just turn them around. It’s not that difficult. Really.
Why don’t I like to past posts on other forums? Wouldn’t you rather get the latest thoughts as opposed to ones several years ago? You know, just in case I’ve refined my ideas. Maybe not. 😬
Just curious... in terms of information you are writing herein in response to the OPs post, why wouldn't you just link to articles you've previously written? Wouldn't your own time spent be better served if you were to perform your own cable reversal tests, listen for any audible differences, document same, and submit your findings as opposed to essentially re-entering all of your previous post? https://www.stereophile.com/content/wire-directionality-how-bad-it
I've always been curious about wire directionality. What causes a cable or interconnect to work better in one direction than the other?
All: Please feel free to chime in. Is there any scientific basis for this?
The most reasonable explanation is that (1) metal is a crystal structure, (2) when the metal is fabricated into wire it’s drawn through a series of progressively smaller dies, (3) the otherwise fairly homogeneous crystal structure of the copper or silver wire is physically distorted and deformed when it’s pulled through the final, not only on the surface of the wire but below the surface as well. Thus, photons have a more difficult time traveling through the conductor in one direction than the other direction. And resistance is measured as lower in the “correct direction” of the wire.
A scientific test of this theory is simple. Reverse (unshielded) interconnects and see if they sound better one way than the other.
I take it on faith that if such a test was conducted, there would be a difference. I accept the fact that I might be wrong. Why are people so invested in their treasured beliefs?
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