Schiit Saga+...What’s the point of the tube?

Larshepping, most amps have an input impedance between 20K and 100K ohms. One need the amplifier input impedance to be at least a 10x larger value that the output impedance of the preamp driving it. This can be thought of as preventing the amp from 'sucking' the juice out of the preamp. 

Thus, as George said, you would be fine either way with your 100K amp driven by the Saga in either mode. 

Thanks for your reply and explanation, George!

Schiit Saga+...What’s the point of the tube?

Just wondering about this. I bought one used because I wanted a passive preamp with 0 gain and remote control. It functions fine and doesn’t seem to color the sound of my inputs at all whether I have it in tube buffer mode or not.

That says to me the tube stage is very well designed, I’d still say though, it must be adding a small amount of second harmonic distortion to the sound, and the coupling caps must be quite transparent also.
Or the other hand it could be you have a very low res system.

My amp has an input impedance of 100k ohms. I’m not sure what that means vis-a-vis the Saga+. With the tube engaged, the Saga has an output impedance of 180 ohms. In passive mode, it has variable impedance with a maximum of 4.8k ohms.

If someone more knowledgeable could help me decode what this means, I’d be grateful.

This is a better than perfect match regardless of passive or active mode, the only thing is if you have cheap very long interconnects with high capacitance, in passive mode it "could" roll off the highs.


Cheers George

Ok, trying my last post again. Looking for a little help regarding input/output impedance:

My amp has an input impedance of 100k ohms. I’m not sure what that means vis-a-vis the Saga+. With the tube engaged, the Saga has an output impedance of 180 ohms. In passive mode, it has variable impedance with a maximum of 4.8k ohms.

If someone more knowledgeable could help me decode what this means, I’d be grateful.

My amp has an input impedance of 100k ohms. I’m not sure what that means vis-a-vis the Saga+. With the tube engaged, the Saga has an output impedance of 180 ohms. In passive mode, it has variable impedance with a maximum of 4.8k ohms. 

If someone more knowledgeable could help me decode what this means, I’d be grateful. 

The input impedance of the amplifier to be used with the Saga is important. The output of the Saga differs between passive and buffer mode. With buffer being much lower. This as I understand it.

I've been enjoying audio for 50 plus years and I've auditioned ,bought and sold a lot of product.The Saga is astoundingly accomplished at its price point,particularly when engaging the tube option which is preferable in my system.

Questions asked and answered on the manufacturer's website

But I don’t want to deal with tubes!

Then you need Saga S, the solid-state Saga. It also saves you $100.

So what’s so special about your Saga?

Lots of things. But let’s start where you probably aren’t expecting us to: in the philosophy. Yes, philosophy. Because in the past 20 years or so, audio gear has gone into full gold-plated Bentley/60’ private yacht/$120MM beach estate mode. As in, prices are completely and utterly insane. Go ahead. Look around for a remote passive preamp, and check the prices. Now add a tube stage. Oh, wait, there aren’t any of those, so check out remote controlled tube preamps.

So what’s this about it being passive or active? How does that work?

Passive preamps are great if you have short cable runs and high-impedance inputs to your power amp. On the other hand, active preamps give you the ability to run longer cables and drive low-impedance inputs on some power amps. Saga+ is both. Switch it to passive mode to bypass the tube buffer, or switch it to active mode to use the tube buffer. It’s up to you.

 And this bizarre hybrid tube buffer? What’s that?

There are plenty of tube buffers out there, but ours is unique. It’s actually a hybrid push-pull tube buffer, featuring a dual triode tube and a pair of BJTs (bipolar junction transistors), with a unique transconductance-equalizing network that pairs the tube and transistor more seamlessly, and helps cancel distortion. The result is a buffer that measures insanely well—better than some solid-state stages!

Lots of folks here blovulating with zero understanding, kinda scary.

 I have the original Saga, the Schiit literature clearly discusses that it is a tube buffer on top of a no gain device. 
The tube thus has a variable impact, depending upon the input impedance of your amp as well as the usual other variables in any system. Used in my case with three different amps, two SS and one tube, in all cases to me it sounded fuller with better 3 dimensional shaping of instruments and the soundstage when using the tube buffer.

It is a very clean sounding device with more resolving power than my Audio Research SP6B preamp. It does not have the natural 3-D soundstage nor sound as natural and effortless as the SP6B, but I wonder whether it was fully burned in when I was comparing it. I think it has hugely improved the sound of my bedroom system (Adcom GFA535II and ATC SCM7’s). Tremendous product! 

For that tube glow. No matter the topology any amp can be made to not impart a sonic signature in other words the distortion is low enough not to color the sound.  I would guess that's the case here. 

I have had similar experiences with tube buffers. I could not hear a difference.
I have found the quality of the volume control to trump everything else in the preamp regardless of the rest of the design. 

I’d say that discerning the differences between tubes of the same design is an advanced listening skill.  Don’t draw conclusions like that as a newbie.

I have the Schiit Saga (original) and use it in tube buffer mode with all my sources except Audio Horizon phono preamp run passively.

I don’t presume to tell anyone what they hear, but after spending time rolling a few 6SN7’s with the Saga, I was able to choose a clear preference based on overall sound quality. I compared the stock tube with new issue Electro-Harmonix, Sylvania Chrome Top (not Chrome Dome), Melz 1578, and vintage RCA Grey Glass. This not only yielded a clear winner, but also a ranking: 1. RCA, 2. Melz, 3. EH, 4. Stock Tube, 5. Sylvania

Were these differences dramatic? Well no, but I’m listening for subtle cues and the best SQ based on different things, like transparency, timbre, highs, midrange, and bass reproduction. 

“So while there were some noticeable gains in collective performance from a few candidates, the overall race was so close that only significant deficits in quality stuck out against the negligible.” 

The quote above is from a “Double Blind” 6SN7 tube shootout using four Saga+ units. Check it out. 

https://audio-head.com/double-blind-a-b-schiit-shootout-tubes/

There was a clear consensus on rankings, which seems to indicate that the tube is doing something. No?

Many people will pay more for Schitt with a tube in it, hence the tube.

It sounds like you are basically implying that a first rate outfit like Schitt who can't keep up with the demand for their products is doing their best to squeeze every dollar possible from their customers by putting a tube in their $399 preamplifier which already comes with a remote control?

Somehow I don't think the principals of Schitt were thinking that.

+1 Russ

I actually had one here for over a month and then bought one. My buddy went on a vacation and let me use it..

I like, it pretty transparent, with or without the tube gain. It was a good clean well built unit.. Certain tubes have a greater effect, the 67N has a LOT of options.

That little Pre offers a lot for what it is. It's not what I consider "Tubie" AT ALL. Now if you want to hear how the old tube sound can REALLY change with a tube roll, get a Mcintosh C11, 20, 22s. The C20s are the bomb, NO REMOTE though.. uhhh!!!

Yea I say you're a newbie and MIGHT like something different. I just question if you'd enjoy it any more. Adding tube issues it my not be your cup of tea. A great SS may offer more.. Me I gotta have tone control, no matter what it is..

My purchased Freya+ was sent BACK. Had an issue, but great customer service.. just top of the line..

Respect

I've never used the Saga,  but the Schiit website says that you can use the passive mode or run it through the tube.  I suspect you need to push a button or something to switch from passive to tube.  Good Luck

The Saga is just a tube buffer without gain I believe. It’s designed to be a very subtle difference so you will need a resolving system and pretty good ears to pick up on the tube buffer.

The Freya is a proper active tube preamp with tube gain. The tubes will have a greater impact on the sound.

"...I’m not into tube voodoo after rolling these tubes and engaging tube buffer mode vs. “normal” mode. Makes me question the value of tube rolling in general..."

You have limited experience with vacuum tube audio. Although the Shitt does have a tube in the circuit path I don't know how it's being used and I believe you when you said you heard no difference when the tube was changed. Most full tube audio products do exhibit sonic changes with changes of tubes. Some position of tubes more than others, same with the tubes themselves. It's a real thing not voodoo. 

The passive mode is just variable resistance so the output impedance can get pretty high, up to 4.8k-ohms, which could be an issue with some amps. The active stage is a tube-SS hybrid (I’m not sure of the exact circuit topology) that keeps the output impedance at 180 ohms which should play well with almost any amp. I think the hybrid nature might give less “tube tone” than a typical tube preamp. I’m still pretty new to tubes but I did like a NOS tube better than the stock one, though I’d be hard pressed to describe the exact difference. I like the Saga+ better than using the pre out on my SS integrated, too. Personal taste is personal. Tubes wear out, cost too much and probably aren’t worth it if you can’t appreciate them.