Russian Tube Preamp, No Return, Here I go again

With the chassis open to view, pick the unit up and give it a good shake. Do you see any parts moving around?  Turn it upside down; does anything hang down or fall out on the floor? I am sure the actual problem is minor and due to something having come loose or a solder joint having weakened during shipment.  If he's honest, I feel bad for the seller.

chackster,

Thanks for your advice as always.

I made my claim through eBay (eBay sold paypal I was told).

Payment was FROM my Chase credit card. I called Chase. They were already aware of the dispute thru eBay, and assure me if seller does not refund, they will credit the charge back to me.

lewm,

l feel bad for the seller also, I have to believe it was ok when he shipped it. However, you will see below, seller is not blameless. Here's the text of my claim to eBay:

"Reason for return: Doesn't work or defectiveComments:

Item ordered 2-12-21; arrived safely, no package damage 4-23-21

No power cord for USA provided, I purchased correct power cord.

No instructions for tube locations. I waited until seller provided photo (attached), then installed the 4 tubes (types were marked by masking tape).

Connected 4-24-21 DEFECT: Item makes Hum/Hiss NOISE. Noise increases with Volume, both channels, even when no equipment connected, just the unit connected to my amplifier (my amp has no noise, nor does any of my equipment, you hear just the music).

Informed seller of defect, many messages, attempts, all failed to eliminate the noise. Looked inside, found loose ground wire (see photo). Connected wire as per seller s instructions: noise actually increased slightly.

I made 3 videos of noise: low/mid/high volume, sent to seller. I made a recap of messages, 4-25-21 to last night 4-29-21, a WORD DOC I can provide.

Unit sold as NEW. Actually 7 months old, see date on loose wore photo. Seller messaged: preamp used in his home, (see photo with his Cat laying on top).

I request full refund including shipping cost: $533.13

IF the seller wants the item returned, I have his original undamaged shipping box and can pack it as received. Seller would need to prepay for return shipping.

NOTE: I should receive refund NOW. It takes over two months to send usa to russia. I need the refund NOW to buy a preamp to listen to my music!

regards, Elliott"
.........................................

that's a recap of a whole lotta messages. I, and they suspect it is one of the Russian tubes (that have no substitute). IF they had offered spares, (or simply included spares, they are very cheap over there), then I could test/prove that. I'm not waiting months to find out, so I made my claim.

the 3 Russian tubes did not look new, no boxes, they had masking tape with numbers on them. The 12ax7 EH is new, and I of course tested it, and tried one of my own just to be sure.

Are you referring to 6N23 types?  Didn't we agree that the ubiquitous 6922 and its many congeners are substitutes for the 6N23, as per this website as well:https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.761078
I don't think it is necessarily a tube problem, but if it were, then substitutes for the 6N23 are readily available everywhere.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.76107...
6N23 can be replaced by 6922 or any of its congeners, and they are all over the place.  I am not at all sure that tubes are the problem, but it is not the case that the 6N23 cannot be replaced outside Russia.

lewm,

thanks for trying to help.

yes, we did discuss substitute 6922 for 6n23p. The seller in a message about this problem said the 6n4p should not be substituted. (even though the item description on eBay mentions using 12ay7) (12ay7 can be swapped for 6072).

At this point, I am unwilling to buy and try new tubes, substitute or original.

I paid $533. total delivered including tax

seller offered me: $400. keep the unit. Noisy unit, mine $133.

IF I knew the noise was JUST tubes, then it’s a good deal, I buy substitute tubes, get lucky.

I sent the seller 3 videos: noise increases at 3 volume settings: low/med/high. both channels. noise with TT connected; Noise with nothing connected.

.........................

I asked about tube substitutes

" New message to: raketoffI

hooked it up again, phono l/r/g to unit. 3 other inputs with rca plugs. unit to amp (no open inputs). Identical hiss-prevalent noise, increases with volume, both channels.

How much do you suspect the problem is noisy tube(s)?

to be clear about substitute tubes:

1. unit has two Russian 64np. Can 12ay7 be used without modification? Can 6072 also be used without modification?

2. unit has one 6n23p. Can 6922 be used without modification? E88cc used without modification? 6dj8 used without modification?

3. unit has one 12ax7 which is easy to get here."
..........................................

Why bother trying? I can hang tough, get full $533, and probably keep the unit even then.

I looked all over, there is nothing that fits on top of my bookcase that I like, especially low price. I don't need this, never did: I just thought it was an easy way to get tubes in the office, it's compact size, it's wood sides. I still like the idea.

Sergey's response, he says NO to using substitute for 6N4P

"

Dear Elliott!

 

Suppose nothing was shaken during transportation and the preamplifier is in good working order.

Why there may be noise:

- bad connecting cable. This happens. I have a couple of factory cables that are noisy and made by myself - no noise.

- incompatibility of components, low input impedance of the power amplifier. A similar case was with one of the AT-11s sold in Russia. After connecting to another power amplifier - thanks for the sound.

- it is possible that the power supply network in your house is phoning. You have an abundance of technology there, so it is quite possible.

 

About tubes. They are very unlikely to cause noise, provided they are properly installed in their nests.

12AY7 and 6072 - CANNOT be installed instead of 6N4P.

 

6922, E88CC 6DJ8 - can be installed instead of 6N23P.

 

But it can also be assumed that some kind of contact has departed during transportation. If the noise is low frequency, maybe something has fallen off (or on the verge of it) in the power circuits.

 

What a shame I can't look at the preamplifier. As a designer, I am very worried about my work. How so - 4 pieces sent to different countries sound perfect, but with yours - such a disaster ...

Best regards,

Sergey"

I tried again: changed power cord; changed the 12ax7; found/tightened another partially loose screw on the phono card; moved to my office system; existing TT and direct to existing amp.

Worse, it now makes thumps during it's 'soft start' period, then the same noises. I'm done.

Somewhere much earlier in this thread, I got the impression that your preamp uses the 6N23, which is replaceable by the 6922. I don’t know about the 6N4P, without doing more research on it. Am I losing my mind, or did you once mention the 6N23? Yes, 6072 and 12AY7 are essentially different names for the exact same tube. I will look to see whether there is any evidence that the 6072 can replace the 6N4P.

Here is a useful website: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n4p.html
From that page, you can also look up the 12AY7 and 6072.  To my eyes, the latter two should be cross-compatible with the 6N4P. (Be careful if you do your own research, because apparently there is also a Chinese 6N4P, and it is not the same as this Russian 6N4P.)  The caveat is the filament voltage.  For the 6072/12AY7, they can be run on either 6V or 12V filament supplies.  I am not sure from the information on the given website that the same is true of the 6N4P, which may require 6V.  Still, I don't see why he says you cannot use the 6072/12AY7.  The pin connections to plates, grids, and cathodes are identical to those of the 6N4P, and the electrical parameters are close enough. Ask the seller.

Thanks but I'm done trying. I now think the phono board got damaged in shipment somehow, what a shame. 

See my newest enthusiasm in this new thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/luxman-lx33-integrated-tube-amp-yeah-nay

about this LX33.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154051395889?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=533...

chakster, anyone?

Seller accepted my full refund request, but say's unable to send me a pre-paid return label.

Who knows the Easiest, Safest, Least Costly way to ship a package from USA to Russia?

I have his shipping box, will weigh and measure it, then I'll tell the seller the cost, they can send me that amount via PayPal.

Ship with USPS Priority Mail and he will get it in 30 days (or faster). Calculate exact shipping cost at your post office and ask him to cover it (you can send postal receipt).

If you want to pay more you can ship with USPS Express (and he will get it in Russia from EMS (courier delivery), it can be delivered in 2 weeks or 1 month.


If you will declare more than $200 he will pay import tax, so it’s better to declare no more than $200 in your custom declaration (no import tax for him). 

chakster,

thanks, he also said USPS. good tip about declared value.

The LX33 was made in early 1980's so it is a candidate for some caps I believe. You might want a tech to look it over before you use it.
Secondly you are making another offshore purchase, I would have thought your enthusiasm would be some what curbed.  

robertrs

Enthusiasm Curbed: I don’t know, I feel more sorry for Sergey than myself. He packed it well, I ended up thinking the phono board was somehow damaged during shipping.

I am definitely going to avoid tube types not readily available. The listing said substitutes for Russian 6N4P was possible: "It is made according to a two-stage scheme on vintage 6N4P low-noise tubes (you can also use modern analogues 6072WA or 12AY7)"

but sergey wrote: No, DO NOT substitute.

I had a JVC Large Plinth with TT81 from Canada arrive, plinth, long tonearm and dust cover smashed, just irresponsible packing by seller. Took some time and effort but I got my money back. Found another one from Vlad, a Russian, also in Canada, he assured me about packing, took a chance, it’s my wonderful 3 arm TT now.

Much of what I/we want is located in foreign lands, and I will go thru whatever to get what I want. As my client said "3 months is but a speck of time". Japan has been trouble free for me.

LX33 seller takes returns, and says this:

"This unit is in very good condition overall, and shows some light natural signs of aging (please see photos), including some minor scratches. The bass knob is not the original part. The amp has been thoroughly tested and checked by our professional in-house technician, confirming its flawless working quality. Luxman amps are known for their robust construction and use of the highest quality parts, so it’s likely this unit will see many more years of use."

Seller, past 12 months: 413 positive, 10 neutral/negative feedback (2%), a slight risk.

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/unisound?filter=period:TWELVE_MONTHS,overall_rating:NEGAT...

eBay, PayPal, Credit Card all protect you, so if not 'flawless' I would simply deal with it.

The seller already told you in explicit terms that the unit he is selling is not “flawless”. So you shouldn’t expect or demand flawless.

lewm

of course not physical appearance, function: he says "flawless working quality" 

that's a ridiculous thing to say for a used item, but it gives a buyer a way out if another disaster happens, like I just went thru with a NEW flawless item.

I tried my very best before rejecting it, more than most others would have, or could have done. It will cost Sergey $99.70 to ship it back. I think he wants to find out what went wrong for the future.

Seller was totally honorable,

prepaid $100. return shipping, I dropped off at USPS, sent him a copy of the receipt and Customs Form, he instantly refunded original purchase: unit, shipping, tax. Not waiting months to get the unit before refund.

A disaster, yet I don't regret ordering it. My decision to trust them proved true. They trust me as well, that's rewarding in itself.

Oh yeah, I made an offer last evening for a 2 month old Luxman SQ-N150. Current Model, Integrated, MM/MC, 10 wpc, remote volume, small, fits on bookcase easily.

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=33

Far more than I was thinking, I justified it this way:  I'm pre-spending the money I'm gonna get when I sell around 3,500 LP's.

Not vintage, no wood, but will be cool looking between my Grey Mitsubishi Vertical TT (they look like metal, but are painted wood) and Black Teac R2R. 

Damn thing has internal bias like my Cayin. The one I'm after has original tubes in original position which luxmanamerica advised me to verify. USA voltage.

I asked Ryan at Audio Classics about them, he said this:

"As far as the SQ150, that is a great unit.  The Luxman has been very popular in the past year.  Very appealing to the McIntosh enthusiasts it seems.  Sweet, never bright, and very very low noise.  It would match very well with the Wharfdales".

Even though your purchase did not work out, it is indeed good to know that he is an honest, honorable merchant. 

yes, it maintains my faith in mankind, which is too often hard to do.

seller just agreed, I just paid for the Luxman, whew, the torture of research, selection, optional ideas is over!

As it happens, my McIntosh preamp is with Audio Classics, so I will be able to use this 10 wpc with my main system to get Phono back while waiting. It will be fun to see how 10 wpc does with those very efficient horns. Still gotta move those 15" woofers, I’ll take it slow.

Then move the Luxman to office system as intended. For fun I will try 10 wpc to Wharfedale’s (only 87 sensitivity) without self-powered sub, but then go first to pre-out to sub, then back to amp main-in with no need for low bass, should help both the amp and the speakers do a cleaner job.

This is the lowest power amp I have ever owned/tried.

surfmuz

your post with this video is the bottom of page 1, so funny, as I often think it is the last post and click the video of Robert Plant the Russian Cave Dweller

https://youtube.com/watch?v=f5tS2ikuuro&feature=share

Luxman will be here Friday. USA 3 days, Russia nearly 3 months.

When I ship to USA from St.Petersburg (Russia) it’s 10-14 days, you had a bad luck with your Russian seller. 

elliott,
I think that you stole that from me. I've been saying that he looks like Robert Plant for a while now.

roxy54.

Yes, you said it first, I only added "if he lived in a cave".

Agreed Elliott. That's a good desciption.